M1 interested in FM - what's the catch?

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lacrossegirl420

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Hi everyone!
I'm an incoming M1 at a T5 school, and am very interested in FM (rural in particular). I've shadowed a lot of FM's (and other specialties), and had really great experiences growing up with my FM docs. Would be really interested in sports medicine but would be happy doing FM in general too.

The thing is, it seems like literally no other peers seem to think FM is a good idea, especially at top schools. Is there something I'm hugely missing out/being naive about on why FM is generally considered "bottom of the barrel" in terms of specialty consideration? Why are so many bright students staying away from this field?

My scores were good in undergrad (>3.9, >520), so it's not like I'm worried about my test-taking abilities or anything for more competitive specialties. Med school loans are not a problem since I was fortunate to receive full tuition.

Thanks!

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Hot take ~ but I feel like it has less to do with the field and more to do with med students being med students. Money really isn't an issue, even for those w/o scholarships, in any specialty except maybe academic peds. People who get into med school and even more so people who get into top 5 med schools typically have a innate drive that prevents them from setting sights on something not viewed as prestigious.

You mention your stats in this very post, you okay with your peers assuming you bombed your steps? If you in fact are, there's still plenty of med students who aren't.
 
1. It isn't seen as prestigious which matters to a lot of med students who have been used to shooting for the stars
2. The pay is much lower than other specialties

I personally believe those are both silly and misguided reasons. While I don't think I will go into FM as I don't resonate as well with what they do, I have the utmost respect for FM physicians and it's a fantastic specialty if you love it. There's no catch if the above two reasons aren't problems for you. Reason 2 isn't even that relevant if you go rural as the pay isn't bad at all.
 
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1. It isn't seen as prestigious which matters to a lot of med students who have been used to shooting for the stars
2. The pay is much lower than other specialties

I personally believe those are both silly and misguided reasons. While I don't think I will go into FM as I don't resonate as well with what they do, I have the utmost respect for FM physicians and it's a fantastic specialty if you love it. There's no catch if the above two reasons aren't problems for you. Reason 2 isn't even that relevant if you go rural as the pay isn't bad at all.
I would add that some are really turned off by the actual practice of family medicine where you're seeing 25+ patients per day mostly managing more simple medical conditions, referring out to specialists, charting for hours at home, and arguing with insurance companies every day. FM is an incredibly flexible and unique specialty, and if you have a vision for how you want to practice, you will make it happen! There are always "top-tier" FM applicants who love the field, so you will certainly have peers. I have seen a lot of students interested in primary care choose to go into IM or even primary care track IM residencies because they want the option of sub-specializing in something lucrative, don't like kids or OB, and are drawn to the intellectual work of internal medicine.
 
Medical students have some weird outlooks on medicine. I had a friend debating FM vs IM Primary Care Track, and ended up ranking IM places higher purely because of the prestige. One of my friends ruled out Radiology because “AI will take over”. Hell, I wanted to do neurosurgery thanks to shadowing during college, but it all changed after a week of spending time with surgical residents and learning their work schedule.

I would recommend talking to residents and attending about the field. If FM residents+attendings are telling you not to do FM, take their advice seriously. If FM folks say “congratulations on picking the best speciality”, take their advice seriously as well.
 
Just personal opinion - FM feels like being a waitress in a really busy fast food place where ppl order exact same thing over and over, and the main goal is to turn over tables as quickly as possible with a smile .

good family physicians are god sent and if you are one- you will build up patient pool quickly . But it can literally suck life out of you if your personally doesn’t match the “serving style”.
 
There is no catch. A lot of people (pre-meds and med students) are hyperbolic about primary care "going down the drain" and many people don't know what they are talking about.

If you like FM and can see yourself doing it, there is nothing wrong with trying to get into a FM residency. If you want, you can try to match into a top FM residency.

Just don't be lazy and think you only need to put in the bare minimum to get there. Maybe you don't need the best board scores and grades to land a FM residency, but it doesn't mean you shouldn't give it your all. Learn things properly and try to be the best at what you do, and you will go far in life.
 
I would say a lot of med students are concerned about "prestige" (which is meaningless) and compensation (med students know nothing about how much physicians actually make) which aren't good reasons not to go into FM. I think some programs discourage interest in FM due to a perceived lack of intellectual depth, and I think sometimes that is accurate - a lot of the patients I saw on my FM clerkship had no acute issues, and some were quite healthy, which to some people may seem counter-intuitive to "being a doctor" (find the problem, fix it, move on).

My FM experience was that you see all sorts of issues, including social issues, and develop the kind of personal relationship with your patients that is lacking in many other fields. My FM preceptor (in a relatively rural area) treated all sorts of issues, even things he could have referred out. In a modern medical climate where most of my patients' "PCPs" are NPs who will refer the slightest abnormality to specialty clinic, that approach seems refreshing.

Personally, I will say that my favorite clinic is stroke clinic, which is often incredibly straight-forward (take your aspirin and statin, stop smoking, check your blood pressure, stop eating chips, exercise, rinse/repeat) but rewarding in the sense that you can really help a lot of people get healthier and take control of their lives from a medical perspective. Dealing with complex, serious medical problems without clear solutions can be exhausting. If you like this approach, FM may be for you.
 
Great question. There’s definitely an unearned stigma that surrounds it. I think part of that comes from the sort of FM exposure you get as medical students. It tends to be public/university hospitals and free clinics where you have burned out docs running on the corporate/academic treadmill telling all would be applicants to steer clear.

You don’t usually get to spend much time with the small town FM doc in a small to mid size practice making 350k working 40 hour weeks seeing mostly pretty healthy patients. You definitely don’t spend time with the concierge docs.

I have friends who took jobs making over $300k in FM in small rural communities and are very happy. Without exception they had grown up in those communities so for them it wasn’t a sacrifice. If that’s you, then FM may offer some attractive options.

On the flip side, there are some fairly powerful market forces working against MD primary care - from Midlevel practice to minute clinics and urgent cares and telemed doc apps on your phone. As things stand, most hospital systems view PCPs as feeders for their more lucrative procedural service lines and a midlevel can make a referral just as easily. So be cautious and thoughtful.

The landscape is going to look very different in 7 years when you start practice.
 
Hi everyone!
I'm an incoming M1 at a T5 school, and am very interested in FM (rural in particular). I've shadowed a lot of FM's (and other specialties), and had really great experiences growing up with my FM docs. Would be really interested in sports medicine but would be happy doing FM in general too.

The thing is, it seems like literally no other peers seem to think FM is a good idea, especially at top schools. Is there something I'm hugely missing out/being naive about on why FM is generally considered "bottom of the barrel" in terms of specialty consideration? Why are so many bright students staying away from this field?

My scores were good in undergrad (>3.9, >520), so it's not like I'm worried about my test-taking abilities or anything for more competitive specialties. Med school loans are not a problem since I was fortunate to receive full tuition.

Thanks!

Except for peds it's probably the worst income in all of medicine. There are CRNAs and NPs who literally make more money than you. If that doesn't bother you at all kudos to you but it does for most people. 200k isn't a lot of money after retirement and taxes.

Also it's boring. It's mostly all cookie cutter and following algorithms. If you like people you might find it enjoyable. There is a reason that midlevels have taken over primary care and that's because it's just not that hard to be adequate.
 
I'm not in FM, but I have several friends who are. They are all the kind of people who value having close, long-term relationships with their patients (watch the kids grow up, see those kids bring their own children to the practice, have a real influence on their lives). And their patients LOVE them--offices are always full of treats and gifts from grateful patients, and the docs are treated like royalty around town. Sure, the money can't compare to neurosurgery or orthopedics, but it's enough to provide a good life (nice house, decent cars, travel, college tuition for kids). Want to be rich? Subspecialize. Want to be beloved? FM is a great choice!
 
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I'm not in FM, but I have several friends who are. They are all the kind of people who value having close, long-term relationships with their patients (watch the kids grow up, see those kids bring their own children to the practice, have a real influence on their lives). And their patients LOVE them--offices are always full of treats and gifts from grateful patients, and the docs are treated like royalty around town. Sure, the money can't compare to neurosurgery or orthopedics, but it's enough to provide a good life (nice house, decent cars, travel, college tuition for kids). Want to be rich? Subspecialize. Want to be beloved? FM is a great choice!

Want to be ignored. Go to rads.

It's a perfect field for us on probationary status and other degenerates.
 
Except for peds it's probably the worst income in all of medicine. There are CRNAs and NPs who literally make more money than you. If that doesn't bother you at all kudos to you but it does for most people. 200k isn't a lot of money after retirement and taxes.

Also it's boring. It's mostly all cookie cutter and following algorithms. If you like people you might find it enjoyable. There is a reason that midlevels have taken over primary care and that's because it's just not that hard to be adequate.
There is truth in what you're saying. However as FM you will still be among the highest in terms of income, education, job security, respect, etc in the entire country. No one should be bothered by that.
 
There is truth in what you're saying. However as FM you will still be among the highest in terms of income, education, job security, respect, etc in the entire country. No one should be bothered by that.

That's fair.

For me and many like me it's all about opportunity costs. I personally couldn't be happy in FM knowing that I could literally make double or triple the income if I'd chosen a different field.
 
So far not one actual FM attending has given you advice on this thread.

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True, but much of what's been said here is accurate.

FM is a low prestige field, that's absolutely true. We don't cure someone's cancer, get them through a severe illness in the ICU, cure their appendicitis, and so on. Getting someone's blood pressure, diabetes, or thyroid under control isn't sexy. Same with preventative care. All are very worthwhile but not exciting.

They pay isn't very high compared to other specialties, but you have to put it into context. I'm on track to make around 350k this year working 36 hours per week (8-5 with 90 minutes for lunch 4 days a week and 8-12 one day a week). No weekends, no nights, no holidays. I've taken 3 weeks of vacation so far with another 2 planned later this year. I take home phone call once every 2.5 months, I haven't set foot in the hospital professionally since residency. No codes, no having to tell family their loved ones have died, no having to tell someone they're dying. Only 3 years of residency was a big plus for me. Basically its a low stress job with banker's hours and a short residency that still has the potential to pay quite well. Oh, and hands down the best job market in the country. Its not even close.

Lots of students like the idea of being a subspecialist. I'm sure it is a nice feeling to be the doctor that other doctors send patients to when they're outside their comfort zone.

Academic medicine loves nothing more than crapping on other specialties and its really easy to do for FM (and EM) as we're both generalist fields so there's always a specialist that knows more about an area than we do. Interestingly, outside of academics the specialists appreciate us (or at least pretend to, which is good enough for me) since a) we send them business and b) handle everything outside of their area that they don't want to. The last part bothers students/residents. It doesn't bother most of us in practice because a) who wants ortho managing DM/HTN on patients and b) I can paid to manage those problems.
 
True, but much of what's been said here is accurate.

FM is a low prestige field, that's absolutely true. We don't cure someone's cancer, get them through a severe illness in the ICU, cure their appendicitis, and so on. Getting someone's blood pressure, diabetes, or thyroid under control isn't sexy. Same with preventative care. All are very worthwhile but not exciting.

They pay isn't very high compared to other specialties, but you have to put it into context. I'm on track to make around 350k this year working 36 hours per week (8-5 with 90 minutes for lunch 4 days a week and 8-12 one day a week). No weekends, no nights, no holidays. I've taken 3 weeks of vacation so far with another 2 planned later this year. I take home phone call once every 2.5 months, I haven't set foot in the hospital professionally since residency. No codes, no having to tell family their loved ones have died, no having to tell someone they're dying. Only 3 years of residency was a big plus for me. Basically its a low stress job with banker's hours and a short residency that still has the potential to pay quite well. Oh, and hands down the best job market in the country. Its not even close.

Lots of students like the idea of being a subspecialist. I'm sure it is a nice feeling to be the doctor that other doctors send patients to when they're outside their comfort zone.

Academic medicine loves nothing more than crapping on other specialties and its really easy to do for FM (and EM) as we're both generalist fields so there's always a specialist that knows more about an area than we do. Interestingly, outside of academics the specialists appreciate us (or at least pretend to, which is good enough for me) since a) we send them business and b) handle everything outside of their area that they don't want to. The last part bothers students/residents. It doesn't bother most of us in practice because a) who wants ortho managing DM/HTN on patients and b) I can paid to manage those problems.
Do you think medical students realize or are exposed to many primary care docs like you? From a purely financial and quality of life perspective, 350k with banker's hours, minimal call, 3 year residency, and a solid job market would seem like the holy grail for many students. I have a number of friends with situations similar to yours and I know my rural preceptors in medical school made 350-400k with similar hours/call because I pulled their salaries up via hospital tax filings.

I'd also be curious to hear how you think region may factor in. My friends actually practice not too far from where I believe you do, though in even smaller communities. Is a lot of the midlevel encroachment thing happening more in big cities or big corpMed centers? Is this perception being driven by the hordes of new grads what all want to practice in the Bay Area or Bust and run into low salaries and tons of midlevels also vying for positions?
 
Do you think medical students realize or are exposed to many primary care docs like you? From a purely financial and quality of life perspective, 350k with banker's hours, minimal call, 3 year residency, and a solid job market would seem like the holy grail for many students. I have a number of friends with situations similar to yours and I know my rural preceptors in medical school made 350-400k with similar hours/call because I pulled their salaries up via hospital tax filings.

I'd also be curious to hear how you think region may factor in. My friends actually practice not too far from where I believe you do, though in even smaller communities. Is a lot of the midlevel encroachment thing happening more in big cities or big corpMed centers? Is this perception being driven by the hordes of new grads what all want to practice in the Bay Area or Bust and run into low salaries and tons of midlevels also vying for positions?

I don't think 350 is typical of FM.
 
True, but much of what's been said here is accurate.

FM is a low prestige field, that's absolutely true. We don't cure someone's cancer, get them through a severe illness in the ICU, cure their appendicitis, and so on. Getting someone's blood pressure, diabetes, or thyroid under control isn't sexy. Same with preventative care. All are very worthwhile but not exciting.

They pay isn't very high compared to other specialties, but you have to put it into context. I'm on track to make around 350k this year working 36 hours per week (8-5 with 90 minutes for lunch 4 days a week and 8-12 one day a week). No weekends, no nights, no holidays. I've taken 3 weeks of vacation so far with another 2 planned later this year. I take home phone call once every 2.5 months, I haven't set foot in the hospital professionally since residency. No codes, no having to tell family their loved ones have died, no having to tell someone they're dying. Only 3 years of residency was a big plus for me. Basically its a low stress job with banker's hours and a short residency that still has the potential to pay quite well. Oh, and hands down the best job market in the country. Its not even close.

Lots of students like the idea of being a subspecialist. I'm sure it is a nice feeling to be the doctor that other doctors send patients to when they're outside their comfort zone.

Academic medicine loves nothing more than crapping on other specialties and its really easy to do for FM (and EM) as we're both generalist fields so there's always a specialist that knows more about an area than we do. Interestingly, outside of academics the specialists appreciate us (or at least pretend to, which is good enough for me) since a) we send them business and b) handle everything outside of their area that they don't want to. The last part bothers students/residents. It doesn't bother most of us in practice because a) who wants ortho managing DM/HTN on patients and b) I can paid to manage those problems.
I think this deserves some context for OP - 300k is in fact reasonable from other FM docs I've spoken with on Reddit as well in many practice settings. I believe its worth making the comparison to a surgical specialty (lets just set aside ortho and NSG) - most non-academic surgical specialties, including general, will start at a floor of 350, probably make 500 when they're at capacity, maybe 650 for uro/ENT which is the high end, but to make those numbers you are NOT working 36 hours per week. You're working at minimum sixty, your weekend call is likely 1:4-1:6, and you take emergency call at least once a week, and you take all of your primary patient phone calls (which can be numerous) all week, at all hours. You may be doing this at multiple hospitals. Forever.

You essentially get double the paycheck for double the work. Academic surgeons can start around 250-275 and cap at 375 as well for another point of reference and still work at least 50 hour weeks.

So the compensation, which is a really important piece of the story, is not bad at all in FM. Its quite reasonable, and I believe students are very misinformed on the logistics of what is required to make 500k+. Your RVU production in that realm of existence is that you are a true workaholic and live to operate. You spend far, far more time in the hospital than you do in your own personal life. You do it because you love it and it makes you happy.

As always, the caveat is that there are exceptions. Anyone can find *a* surgeon who works 30 hours a week and makes 600k in the middle of no where with no real call in a critical access hospital because it isn't busy and everything gets transferred. But I believe I've described the averages and the more realistic lifestyle of most 'competitive' 'prestigious' lifestyles.

You work your ass off to make more than 500k in any RVU based specialty. There's no way around it. Students simply don't know how that works (most residents don't either), and that is where a lot of the misconceptions come from. There's this silly, absolutely untrue belief that if you can get through a prestigious hard residency that you make a ton of money and your life becomes cushy. That's fake news and not how it works. What actually happens is that people who have been gunning their entire lives go into prestigious difficult things, have to work harder than they've ever worked in their entire lives for another 5-7 years of residency, and by the time they're done they no longer know how to not work hard. Its just a way of life at that point - and so they make a ton of money, and they genuinely enjoy it. And by work hard I simply mean volume of work and hours put in.
 
Do you think medical students realize or are exposed to many primary care docs like you? From a purely financial and quality of life perspective, 350k with banker's hours, minimal call, 3 year residency, and a solid job market would seem like the holy grail for many students. I have a number of friends with situations similar to yours and I know my rural preceptors in medical school made 350-400k with similar hours/call because I pulled their salaries up via hospital tax filings.

I'd also be curious to hear how you think region may factor in. My friends actually practice not too far from where I believe you do, though in even smaller communities. Is a lot of the midlevel encroachment thing happening more in big cities or big corpMed centers? Is this perception being driven by the hordes of new grads what all want to practice in the Bay Area or Bust and run into low salaries and tons of midlevels also vying for positions?
In some places they are but I wouldn't be surprised if that's the minority. I was so probably why I was leaning FM within 2 weeks of starting 3rd year. My current office has been pushing hard to become a preferred site (or whatever the local DO schools calls it) so students can see what an efficient productive office looks like.

Midlevels can vary. In my area, they've completely overrun corporate urgent care. The hospital owned ones have 1 MD/DO and 1 midlevel on shift at any given time. Our hospital owned practices usually have 1 midlevel per office. We have 2 but we're the 2nd largest PCP practice in the network so not a big deal. We have 2 hospital competitors locally and they are about the same as far as midlevels go. We currently have 5 openings for FPs and the only NP job is the NICU.

I think the biggest benefit we have region wise is reasonably low COL. I have friends in other parts of the state with identical RVU conversion rates. Lots of people I know in other areas actually get more per RVU than I do.
 
I think this deserves some context for OP - 300k is in fact reasonable from other FM docs I've spoken with on Reddit as well in many practice settings. I believe its worth making the comparison to a surgical specialty (lets just set aside ortho and NSG) - most non-academic surgical specialties, including general, will start at a floor of 350, probably make 500 when they're at capacity, maybe 650 for uro/ENT which is the high end, but to make those numbers you are NOT working 36 hours per week. You're working at minimum sixty, your weekend call is likely 1:4-1:6, and you take emergency call at least once a week, and you take all of your primary patient phone calls (which can be numerous) all week, at all hours. You may be doing this at multiple hospitals. Forever.

You essentially get double the paycheck for double the work. Academic surgeons can start around 250-275 and cap at 375 as well for another point of reference and still work at least 50 hour weeks.

So the compensation, which is a really important piece of the story, is not bad at all in FM. Its quite reasonable, and I believe students are very misinformed on the logistics of what is required to make 500k+. Your RVU production in that realm of existence is that you are a true workaholic and live to operate. You spend far, far more time in the hospital than you do in your own personal life. You do it because you love it and it makes you happy.

As always, the caveat is that there are exceptions. Anyone can find *a* surgeon who works 30 hours a week and makes 600k in the middle of no where with no real call in a critical access hospital because it isn't busy and everything gets transferred. But I believe I've described the averages and the more realistic lifestyle of most 'competitive' 'prestigious' lifestyles.

You work your ass off to make more than 500k in any RVU based specialty. There's no way around it. Students simply don't know how that works (most residents don't either), and that is where a lot of the misconceptions come from. There's this silly, absolutely untrue belief that if you can get through a prestigious hard residency that you make a ton of money and your life becomes cushy. That's fake news and not how it works. What actually happens is that people who have been gunning their entire lives go into prestigious difficult things, have to work harder than they've ever worked in their entire lives for another 5-7 years of residency, and by the time they're done they no longer know how to not work hard. Its just a way of life at that point - and so they make a ton of money, and they genuinely enjoy it. And by work hard I simply mean volume of work and hours put in.
Excellent points. The people in my field (ent) making the really big bucks tend to be partners in private groups with numerous ancillary income streams (hearing aids, surgery center, imaging, etc) rather the completely RVU or collection based.

As someone fresh off the job search, I can say confidently that median ENT comp nationwide is about $450k on yearly RVUs of around 7,000. The partners I know in good private groups make minimum of $700k (90th percentile overall) and go up to the $1.5m range in some places. Academics are on the lower side (not counting whatever the heck UCLA is doing because a number of their attendings are making $1.3-1.5m) of course and yea you’re quite busy compared to the FM doc working banker hours. You also have potential post op complications that require urgent/emergent intervention at all hours and you’re one of a select few people credentialed to handle it. I can’t think of a single primary care emergency that can’t be safely managed acutely by the ED doc and admitting Hospitalist.


There’s definitely a lot to be said for what’s possible in a well managed primary care practice. I suspect with the impending job market implosion in EM, many of those students may look more closely at FM going forward.
 
Excellent points. The people in my field (ent) making the really big bucks tend to be partners in private groups with numerous ancillary income streams (hearing aids, surgery center, imaging, etc) rather the completely RVU or collection based.

As someone fresh off the job search, I can say confidently that median ENT comp nationwide is about $450k on yearly RVUs of around 7,000. The partners I know in good private groups make minimum of $700k (90th percentile overall) and go up to the $1.5m range in some places. Academics are on the lower side (not counting whatever the heck UCLA is doing because a number of their attendings are making $1.3-1.5m) of course and yea you’re quite busy compared to the FM doc working banker hours. You also have potential post op complications that require urgent/emergent intervention at all hours and you’re one of a select few people credentialed to handle it. I can’t think of a single primary care emergency that can’t be safely managed acutely by the ED doc and admitting Hospitalist.


There’s definitely a lot to be said for what’s possible in a well managed primary care practice. I suspect with the impending job market implosion in EM, many of those students may look more closely at FM going forward.
Several threads in the EM forum talking about wanting a primary care fellowship type thing where they could move to outpatient work.

Part of me is fine with it because why not. Part is me is enjoying the schadenfreude given how they typically react to FPs doing an EM fellowship.
 
As far as flexibility probably no specialty can compete with FM, except for EM which is on the road to being geographically / demand restricted in the near future if not already so. I know an “private-academic” FM doc here who spends 50% of their time in their own concierge practice and the rest of the time working at the VA and county systems associated with the med school / serving underserved patients and teaching trainees. I feel like I haven’t seen docs in other specialties customize their practice to this degree.
 
I don't understand these threads at all and why they keep popping up. FM isn't some unknown animal to the average medical student as far as I know. I would imagine most people do at least 1 rotation in 2 years of clerkships that shows them how much better PP is than academics for the average doc, particularly FM.

You either like the work in FM or you don't. All over the internet you can find people saying they can't understand why someone would be a surgeon and that it sucks and they would never do it yada yada yada and no one bats an eye. If someone says they wouldn't do FM for the same reason then they are a jerk.

OP, go look at the average work week for whatever specialty you want. Go look at the pay and PTO and other perks. Are those things actively desired and acceptable then congrats you picked your specialty. There is no "catch"
 
So I’m a rural FM attending. My impression? Gifted medical students are too often told that they’re “too bright” for FM. It’s a little funny and hyperbolic, but the ZDoggMD video using the sorting hat scene from Harry Potter sort of nails the concept in my opinion:



The thing is, there’s nothing about FM that anyone could ever be “too bright” for. I get the undifferentiated patient who has a complaint that’s not yet been evaluated, and has an undiagnosed problem. This week already I’ve seen:
- several acute injuries.
- several well child visits
- 3 IUD placements
- several joint injections
- corneal abrasion
- finger abscess after cat bite
- deep wrist laceration with exposed flexor tendons and repaired it.
- Epistaxis

And that was just Tuesday.

I’ve also diagnosed 3 different cancers this month (Colon, Renal, Ovarian). Seen patients with severe and complicated chronic conditions such as CP, CF, Hirschsprung’s, etc.

I’ve treated fractures, performed minor surgeries (excisions, I&D, etc).

I've managed all manner of mental health issues, including Schizophrenia, Bipolar, Eating Disorders, etc.

There is literally no excuse for anyone to say that a student could possibly be “too bright” to do what I do. I say, the brighter the better. I don’t have the luxury of learning a narrow area of medicine to the hilt, and forgetting the rest.

I agree that my job isn’t glamorous. Nobody cares about the MI they never had, or the melanoma that never went metastatic because we excised it at their Well Visit. They will gush about the doc that saved their life in the Cath lab, or did their mohs procedure though.

What they do do however, is respect and appreciate their PCP. I do get treated like royalty in this small community I’m in. I’m leaving soon for a job in the city, and people literally have sat and cried in my waiting room when they’ve been told. I appreciate those sentiments on the long and rough days.

in terms of compensation. I work 36hrs per week, and made about 315k last year. In an area that we were able to purchase a brand new 3700 square foot home with high end finishes for about $390k. Average family is living on $45k here, so my salary goes really far. I take a weekend of (very) light inpatient call once every 6 weeks. I basically pull about 8 hours of work during a 48hr period and can make about $1k for it. I have night coverage so I don’t even have to go in or answer the phone between 7p and 7a.

I think I have the best job in the world, and feel like I would absolutely go insane if I narrowed my scope and tried to specialize.
 
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Except for peds it's probably the worst income in all of medicine. There are CRNAs and NPs who literally make more money than you. If that doesn't bother you at all kudos to you but it does for most people. 200k isn't a lot of money after retirement and taxes.

Also it's boring. It's mostly all cookie cutter and following algorithms. If you like people you might find it enjoyable. There is a reason that midlevels have taken over primary care and that's because it's just not that hard to be adequate.
Isn't median FM pay more like 200k-250k, with the medscape report placing it at around 230k before tax?
 
FM is a low prestige field, that's absolutely true. We don't cure someone's cancer, get them through a severe illness in the ICU, cure their appendicitis, and so on. Getting someone's blood pressure, diabetes, or thyroid under control isn't sexy. Same with preventative care. All are very worthwhile but not exciting.
This is true, but good PCPs can also make timely diagnoses that save lives. From my personal family experience, my family is very thankful that our PCP caught my dad's tonsil cancer early, when it could be successfully treated with surgery alone.
 
As far as flexibility probably no specialty can compete with FM, except for EM which is on the road to being geographically / demand restricted in the near future if not already so. I know an “private-academic” FM doc here who spends 50% of their time in their own concierge practice and the rest of the time working at the VA and county systems associated with the med school / serving underserved patients and teaching trainees. I feel like I haven’t seen docs in other specialties customize their practice to this degree.
I think this might surpass it

POSITION SUMMARY

We are currently recruiting for a board eligible/certified radiologist, fellowship-trained in neuroradiology for a remote position, primarily covering 11a-8p EST on a rotating schedule 1 week on, 1 week off.

$364,000 starting total compensation – inclusive of 401k profit-sharing contribution
Substantial moonlighting opportunities earning up to $100,000 annually
Incentive pay offered for every shift (radiologists average an additional $20,000 annually)
Full benefits
$25,000 Commencement Bonus
Partner radiologists earn on average more than $525,000 annually
 
I think this might surpass it

POSITION SUMMARY

We are currently recruiting for a board eligible/certified radiologist, fellowship-trained in neuroradiology for a remote position, primarily covering 11a-8p EST on a rotating schedule 1 week on, 1 week off.

$364,000 starting total compensation – inclusive of 401k profit-sharing contribution
Substantial moonlighting opportunities earning up to $100,000 annually
Incentive pay offered for every shift (radiologists average an additional $20,000 annually)
Full benefits
$25,000 Commencement Bonus
Partner radiologists earn on average more than $525,000 annually
364k is low. How many years to partner, if at all? How much is the buy-in? Get to work extra for extra pay? That sounds swell. Nighthawks? Med Mal and usual benefits? Disability, health insurance, etc. Sounds a little light to me.
 
To the OP. My son is FM, boarded and doing a sports fellowship now. Keep an open mind. My wife and I both thought we would do FM, but ended up as overpriced specialists. You never know. Prestige? Valedictorian of my med school was a FP, used to argue with oncologists about the chemo regime. FM requires a special person to be excellent. My neighbors FP looked at her hands and diagnosed Dermatomyositis by her rash. A great call. You have great opportunities to make a difference with patients as you are the first doc to see them.
 
364k is low. How many years to partner, if at all? How much is the buy-in? Get to work extra for extra pay? That sounds swell. Nighthawks? Med Mal and usual benefits? Disability, health insurance, etc. Sounds a little light to me.
It's entirely remote, but still a pretty darn good bargain.
 
364k is low. How many years to partner, if at all? How much is the buy-in? Get to work extra for extra pay? That sounds swell. Nighthawks? Med Mal and usual benefits? Disability, health insurance, etc. Sounds a little light to me.

That is a terrible job. Only someone truly desperate would take that
 
I think this might surpass it

POSITION SUMMARY

We are currently recruiting for a board eligible/certified radiologist, fellowship-trained in neuroradiology for a remote position, primarily covering 11a-8p EST on a rotating schedule 1 week on, 1 week off.

$364,000 starting total compensation – inclusive of 401k profit-sharing contribution
Substantial moonlighting opportunities earning up to $100,000 annually
Incentive pay offered for every shift (radiologists average an additional $20,000 annually)
Full benefits
$25,000 Commencement Bonus
Partner radiologists earn on average more than $525,000 annually

That's a really bad job. one week on one week off overnights are typically 600+. It's a tough job.
 
Hi everyone!
I'm an incoming M1 at a T5 school, and am very interested in FM (rural in particular). I've shadowed a lot of FM's (and other specialties), and had really great experiences growing up with my FM docs. Would be really interested in sports medicine but would be happy doing FM in general too.

The thing is, it seems like literally no other peers seem to think FM is a good idea, especially at top schools. Is there something I'm hugely missing out/being naive about on why FM is generally considered "bottom of the barrel" in terms of specialty consideration? Why are so many bright students staying away from this field?

My scores were good in undergrad (>3.9, >520), so it's not like I'm worried about my test-taking abilities or anything for more competitive specialties. Med school loans are not a problem since I was fortunate to receive full tuition.

Thanks!
For many SDNers, FM is one of the Seven Circles of Hell. Ignore them and you do you.
 
I think it's because whatever your reason for liking FM is, there's probably another specialty that will check that box plus more.

Like good lifestyle? Plenty of other specialties can be 9-5 M-F. Something like psych for example can be just as cushy with much less hectic work life.
Like good money? Something like radiology can double the pay scale with similar hours.
Like helping patients? As above, FM is mostly chronic and preventive care, it's much sexier to manage acute problems in a hospital setting.
Like being an expert? FM is the jack of all trades, master of none that refers everything weird to the fellowship trained guys.
Like research? Other fields have much more robust academia and funding
Like prestige? FM isn't high on most people's lists there.

You get the idea. It's the right package for some people on day 1, but for many others it's kind of a backup option if an even better fit doesn't work out.
 
I think it's because whatever your reason for liking FM is, there's probably another specialty that will check that box plus more.

Like good lifestyle? Plenty of other specialties can be 9-5 M-F. Something like psych for example can be just as cushy with much less hectic work life.
Like good money? Something like radiology can double the pay scale with similar hours.
Like helping patients? As above, FM is mostly chronic and preventive care, it's much sexier to manage acute problems in a hospital setting.
Like being an expert? FM is the jack of all trades, master of none that refers everything weird to the fellowship trained guys.
Like research? Other fields have much more robust academia and funding
Like prestige? FM isn't high on most people's lists there.

You get the idea. It's the right package for some people on day 1, but for many others it's kind of a backup option if an even better fit doesn't work out.
I mean, if you have only 1 reason other than "broad scope" you're correct.

But there's not many other specialties that have the same combination of great hours, no real call, decent money, amazing job market, short residency, low stress work, and broad knowledge base. Derm and psych manage all of that but the last one. Both can also have the same long term relationships with patients if you like that aspect of it.
 
Except for peds it's probably the worst income in all of medicine. There are CRNAs and NPs who literally make more money than you. If that doesn't bother you at all kudos to you but it does for most people. 200k isn't a lot of money after retirement and taxes.

Also it's boring. It's mostly all cookie cutter and following algorithms. If you like people you might find it enjoyable. There is a reason that midlevels have taken over primary care and that's because it's just not that hard to be adequate.
Lots of fields are algorithmic. The world needs more quality PCPs and for people who enjoy that type of work who are smart and can manage more in their office without referring everything out is a lifesaver for a ton of people. Tons of people enjoy the breadth of primary care and those relationships. And if you work rural your scope of practice is pretty vast.
 
I think it's because whatever your reason for liking FM is, there's probably another specialty that will check that box plus more.

Like good lifestyle? Plenty of other specialties can be 9-5 M-F. Something like psych for example can be just as cushy with much less hectic work life.
Like good money? Something like radiology can double the pay scale with similar hours.
Like helping patients? As above, FM is mostly chronic and preventive care, it's much sexier to manage acute problems in a hospital setting.
Like being an expert? FM is the jack of all trades, master of none that refers everything weird to the fellowship trained guys.
Like research? Other fields have much more robust academia and funding
Like prestige? FM isn't high on most people's lists there.

You get the idea. It's the right package for some people on day 1, but for many others it's kind of a backup option if an even better fit doesn't work out.

there is literally no other specialty like full spectrum FM. People argue Med-Peds is close, but it’s really not. I don’t see many med peds folks doing primary care for adults and children alike. They usually specialize, or gravitate to adult med or pediatric practice. Plus, they aren’t really trained as extensively in ambulatory medicine, nor do they receive any real obstetrics and gynecology training, which is an emphasis of most FM programs. We’re not afraid of Vaginas like most peds and IM folks seem to be.

And a PCP who refers anything wierd out to a “fellowship trained guy” is a bad PCP. I only refer when a specialist provides a diagnostic or treatment modality I can’t offer, such as a scope or surgical procedure of some type. Or when I really have run out of ideas, or often when the patient is annoying/hard to deal with (to get them out of my hair for a while).
 
Dumping ground.
Having to be a generalist.
Low reimbursement.
Irresponsible patients.
Multiple, chronic problems of which maybe 2 can be addressed this visit.
Dumping ground.
5 minute visits with major overhead.
and the list goes on...

It's not Patch Adams where you get to know people and heal them in a warm, fuzzy way. It's yet another person with bad blood pressure, blood sugars, uncontrolled lipids, a host of chronic ailments, health adverse behaviors, etc.
 
I think it's because whatever your reason for liking FM is, there's probably another specialty that will check that box plus more.

Like good lifestyle? Plenty of other specialties can be 9-5 M-F. Something like psych for example can be just as cushy with much less hectic work life.
Like good money? Something like radiology can double the pay scale with similar hours.
Like helping patients? As above, FM is mostly chronic and preventive care, it's much sexier to manage acute problems in a hospital setting.
Like being an expert? FM is the jack of all trades, master of none that refers everything weird to the fellowship trained guys.
Like research? Other fields have much more robust academia and funding
Like prestige? FM isn't high on most people's lists there.

You get the idea. It's the right package for some people on day 1, but for many others it's kind of a backup option if an even better fit doesn't work out.
I really don't understand why people can't see why chronic care is what some of us want. ( I'm not saying you , personally , but acute care really isn't that sexy. I mean why would I just stabilize the patient so they can go home? What happens to them after that?)
 
I really don't understand why people can't see why chronic care is what some of us want. ( I'm not saying you , personally , but acute care really isn't that sexy. I mean why would I just stabilize the patient so they can go home? What happens to them after that?)
Idk I don't think many premeds write statements about how moving it was to see their mom have her A1c and pressure controlled well. It's more cost effective and more important, but not glamorous
 
Dumping ground.
Having to be a generalist.
Low reimbursement.
Irresponsible patients.
Multiple, chronic problems of which maybe 2 can be addressed this visit.
Dumping ground.
5 minute visits with major overhead.
and the list goes on...

It's not Patch Adams where you get to know people and heal them in a warm, fuzzy way. It's yet another person with bad blood pressure, blood sugars, uncontrolled lipids, a host of chronic ailments, health adverse behaviors, etc.

1. it’s only a dumping ground if you let it be
2. Being a generalist is a badge of honor for some.
3. Reimbursement is way better than most realize. Not specially level (most specialties) but not as poor as SDN makes it out to be.
4. Irresponsible patients exist everywhere. Trick is to not let them get to you. This isn’t a unique to FM thing.
5. Multiple chronic problems, maybe, but only as many addressed as you feel OK with.
6. 5 minute visits? Sure, maybe for your URI’s, ear infections etc. but my schedule is booked out in 15 and 30 minute increments. Which is plenty.

I do get to know my patients in what some would describe as a “warm and fuzzy” way. I’m leaving my current job, I’ve been at it for 3yrs. I’ll be taking a similar one in the suburbs next. I’ve gotten to know a lot of people well. My office is full of well-wish cards, and my exam rooms are full of sad-to-see-me-go patients. But I try to not be a heartless corporate patient-mill; and my outcomes from all those chronic issues you dread are actually quite good, so I think my patients appreciate having a physician like that in their small town.

Sounds to me like your impression of FM comes from seeing it being done wrong.
 
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1. it’s only a dumping ground if you let it be
2. Being a generalist is a badge of honor for some.
3. Reimbursement is way better than most realize. Not specially level (most specialties) but not as poor as SDN makes it out to be.
4. Irresponsible patients exist everywhere. Trick is to not let them get to you. This isn’t a unique to FM thing.
5. Multiple chronic problems, maybe, but only as many addressed as you feel OK with.
6. 5 minute visits? Sure, maybe for your URI’s, ear infections etc. but my schedule is booked out in 15 and 30 minute increments. Which is plenty.

I do get to know my patients in what some would describe as a “warm and fuzzy” way. I’m leaving my current job, I’ve been at it for 3yrs. I’ve gotten to know a lot of people well. My office is full of well-wish cards, and my exam rooms are full of sad-to-see-me-go patients. But I try to not be a heartless corporate patient-mill; and my outcomes from all those chronic issues you dread are actually quite good.

Sounds to me like your impression of FM comes from seeing it being done wrong.
Any particular reason why you're leaving that gig?
 
1. It isn't seen as prestigious which matters to a lot of med students who have been used to shooting for the stars
2. The pay is much lower than other specialties

I personally believe those are both silly and misguided reasons. While I don't think I will go into FM as I don't resonate as well with what they do, I have the utmost respect for FM physicians and it's a fantastic specialty if you love it. There's no catch if the above two reasons aren't problems for you. Reason 2 isn't even that relevant if you go rural as the pay isn't bad at all.
3. The paperwork is outrageous.
 
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