MAOI and other strange drug questions

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nancysinatra

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Hey I was curious if anyone here is familiar with using MAOIs or TCAs for depression (i.e. not 50mg of elavil for sleep)?

My program has given me no exposure to these drugs! Is this totally normal everywhere?

Anyway why, if the MAOIs are so dangerous, have they not been pulled from the market all these years like the Cox-2 inhibitors were? Or is the fear of them out of proportion to the actual danger?
 
I've used both mostly as continuation therapy. I've started TCAs several times. I've never started a MAOI.

nancy- I think the reason that MAOIs are still around is that while they're third liney, they sometimes work in folks who are refractory to more popular modalities.
 
At my program we have had a few very treatment resistant patients that we have used the Emsam patch on. I think that they are definitely not emphasized much anymore but having some basic knowledge of them for the trickier cases is a good thing. it also separates us from the NPs and PAs when we can tackle the cases that don't respond to the typical SSRI
 
Like most 2nd, 3rd, 4th line treatments, we probably don't get enough exposure and too reticent to use them when we should. Why use 2-3 meds when you might me able to utilize a single (though less common) treatment? Same for ECT and Clozapine (for schizophrenia and bipolar). I've had a few who complained that Nardil or Parnate "always worked for me. But for the last 10 yrs no one will prescribe it and my life has been Hell since." When the pt can recite the dietary restrictions and possible SE's better than I can, I have to ask myself why we are making him suffer. Sometimes there is going to be a delay while the pharmacy orders the med, just because they no longer keep it in stock.
 
Like most 2nd, 3rd, 4th line treatments, we probably don't get enough exposure and too reticent to use them when we should. Why use 2-3 meds when you might me able to utilize a single (though less common) treatment? Same for ECT and Clozapine (for schizophrenia and bipolar). I've had a few who complained that Nardil or Parnate "always worked for me. But for the last 10 yrs no one will prescribe it and my life has been Hell since." When the pt can recite the dietary restrictions and possible SE's better than I can, I have to ask myself why we are making him suffer. Sometimes there is going to be a delay while the pharmacy orders the med, just because they no longer keep it in stock.

Yeah I really wish my program let us do more varied things. Partly it's the way our outpatient training is set up. We have really unreliable patients and we rotate around at a bunch of places which leads to having few truly long term patients to begin with. So then it's hard to tell if they've "failed" 1st line treatments.

If pharmacies aren't stocking these drugs, why do the manufacturers keep making them? There must be some demand even now?

Just out of curiosity, what are some other unusual treatments out there? I sometimes see patients on older atypicals, like navane.
 
Hey I was curious if anyone here is familiar with using MAOIs or TCAs for depression (i.e. not 50mg of elavil for sleep)?

My program has given me no exposure to these drugs! Is this totally normal everywhere?

Anyway why, if the MAOIs are so dangerous, have they not been pulled from the market all these years like the Cox-2 inhibitors were? Or is the fear of them out of proportion to the actual danger?

If you want to have a chance to help really treatment resistant depressed folks, I think you need experience with at least a couple of the old MAOIs (I've had occasion to prescribe phenelzine and tranylcypromine) and a couple TCAs (clomipramine, nortriptyline, and desipramine are the one's I've had the most experience/luck with).

MAOIs have much better evidence for efficacy than do some of the silly things we prescribe nowadays like low dose atypical antipsychotics in depression. And yet, we give out the atypicals like candy while remaining terrified of MAOIs/TCAs.
 
If you want to have a chance to help really treatment resistant depressed folks, I think you need experience with at least a couple of the old MAOIs (I've had occasion to prescribe phenelzine and tranylcypromine) and a couple TCAs (clomipramine, nortriptyline, and desipramine are the one's I've had the most experience/luck with).

MAOIs have much better evidence for efficacy than do some of the silly things we prescribe nowadays like low dose atypical antipsychotics in depression. And yet, we give out the atypicals like candy while remaining terrified of MAOIs/TCAs.

I have this feeling increasingly like we give out the atypicals because we think they have no side effects, but we know they have side effects, they're just long term. By the time the patients get the side effects they will have seen many doctors and years will have gone by and there won't be anyone to sue.

How "reliable" does a patient need to be to use a TCA or MAOI? My attendings always find a reason why a particular patient is not a good candidate.

Can I learn this stuff on my own, by reading up and trying things with patients? I'm sure not going to get any experience in residency.
 
Yeah I really wish my program let us do more varied things. Partly it's the way our outpatient training is set up. We have really unreliable patients and we rotate around at a bunch of places which leads to having few truly long term patients to begin with. So then it's hard to tell if they've "failed" 1st line treatments.

If pharmacies aren't stocking these drugs, why do the manufacturers keep making them? There must be some demand even now?

Just out of curiosity, what are some other unusual treatments out there? I sometimes see patients on older atypicals, like navane.

I've often wondered this very thing. Seems like it wouldn't be worth the trouble.
 
I never prescribed an MAOI in residency, but have used EMSAM a few times since.

I like nortriptyline as a TCA.

IMHO psychiatric residency should emphasize, and I mean emphasize expertise in psychoanalysis, ECT, MAOI's and clozaril.

And also in the use of SSRI's/etc..., as I believe their effective use is way underutilized.
 
I never prescribed an MAOI in residency, but have used EMSAM a few times since.

I like nortriptyline as a TCA.

IMHO psychiatric residency should emphasize, and I mean emphasize expertise in psychoanalysis, ECT, MAOI's and clozaril.

And also in the use of SSRI's/etc..., as I believe their effective use is way underutilized.

Here's something I don't get. Neuro and medicine and other specialties use things like heparin and coumadin day in and day out. And TPA. Those medications come with risks and require monitoring. But no one would ever claim that you need a whole residency just to learn those things.

And no one's stopping using those drugs just because they're "eek--risky!!" Ok I realize there's the risk/benefit ratio, but from what I hear some of my attendings saying, they're just plain scared of anything that's not an SSRI or an atypical or hydroxyzine.
 
In relation to balancing the risk/rewards of treatment. I'm going to be curious to see how things like this might be influenced when my generation of medstudents makes it to be attendings. Because I've grown up hearing all over the media/news/conversations that Americans are "over medicated" and that "psychiatric meds don't work". And to some extent I think we have internalized some of these messages and will be curious to see if that ends up influencing practices at all down the road.

I think an obvious observation related to this is probably about once a month someone comes on here posting how they want to do psychiatry, but dont want to focus on medications. Seems like that is the current "hot/hip" way to think about mental health.

As another example, even in something like vaccines/autism where the scientific community is in complete agreement that there is nothing to be concerned about, my generation of medstudents still has something far back in our mind that makes us wonder "What if...?" more than someone who grew up in a different generation.
 
IMHO psychiatric residency should emphasize, and I mean emphasize expertise in psychoanalysis, ECT, MAOI's and clozaril.
Could you possibly be overemphasizing? At the end of the day, if you have a diverse patient set and open-minded attendings that allow you to make treatment plan decisions that allow for managing a handful of folks on MAOI's and Clozaril, you get the gist of it. It ain't rocket science. And you can get ECT certification from a hospital with the equivalent of a fair bit of 4th year elective. I agree these things shouldn't be neglected, but I wouldn't emphasize, and I mean emphasize expertise in it.

And I'm with splik on raising the eyebrows for the psychoanalysis part. There's plenty enough of it in the psychodynamically-oriented residencies and folks who really want expertise have the option of the institutes.
 
MAOIs are not "so dangerous", especially the patch, and people do it with a decent amount of frequency, though so far I haven't had one in my inpatient list. TCAs and lithium are fairly common.

If you want to start someone with an MAOI, I would pull out a sheet and go over the diet and the other side effects.

If you really want to be Jedi, there is this thing of using TCA and MAOI simultaneously with very careful monitoring and a very thorough risk vs. benefits discussion. This is a regimen people sometimes used before SSRIs appeared. You can do it with a supervisor.

Hey I was curious if anyone here is familiar with using MAOIs or TCAs for depression (i.e. not 50mg of elavil for sleep)?

My program has given me no exposure to these drugs! Is this totally normal everywhere?

Anyway why, if the MAOIs are so dangerous, have they not been pulled from the market all these years like the Cox-2 inhibitors were? Or is the fear of them out of proportion to the actual danger?
 
MAOIs are not "so dangerous", especially the patch, and people do it with a decent amount of frequency, though so far I haven't had one in my inpatient list. TCAs and lithium are fairly common.

If you want to start someone with an MAOI, I would pull out a sheet and go over the diet and the other side effects.

If you really want to be Jedi, there is this thing of using TCA and MAOI simultaneously with very careful monitoring and a very thorough risk vs. benefits discussion. This is a regimen people sometimes used before SSRIs appeared. You can do it with a supervisor.

Any reading to recommend about this regimen of TCA/MAOI? Stahl mentioned it in passing in the prescribers guide.. any journal articles / CME's / etc you can point me to, to get more detailed advice on carrying out this manuever?
 
I have a few patients on MAOIs and TCAs. In my limited experience they are effective, but all of my patients on both MAOIs and TCAs have substantial side effects from them.

EMSAM is kind of a marketing gimmick. At the 6mg dose patients can avoid the MAOI diet, but the problem is that 6mg is not an effective dose. To be effective, EMSAM usually needs to be dosed at 9mg or 12mg and the FDA recommends that at those doses patients follow the MAOI diet. Given the huge cost difference between oral and transdermal, there's really no reason to use the patch at all. Also, you still have the same drug drug interactions to worry about with EMSAM as you do with the oral MAOIs

Honestly, I prefer using ECT to MAOI's anyway. I only use an MAOI when the patient has done well on one in the past, or doesn't want to do ECT.

TCAs can sometimes be helpful for the depressed patient who needs migraine prophylaxis - Nortriptyline can work well for this
 
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I thought the whole point was that there was not the massive dose of MAOI directly hitting the GI mucosa?

In theory it's great! But it's more complicated in practice -especially medicolegally - at least according to the Carlat Report back in 2006.

TCPR, November 2006, Vol 4, Issue 11, The Use of MAOIs

From The Carlat Report:


The Early History
EMSAM is the reformulation of an oral MAOI, selegiline, into a skin patch form. Selegiline was discovered in the 1960's and has been available in the U.S. since 1989 through Somerset Pharmaceuticals under the brand name Eldepryl, approved to treat Parkinson's Disease. Although selegiline was never FDA-approved as an antidepressant in this country, there has been ample clinical experience and research data demonstrating that it is an effective antidepressant at doses between 30 and 60 mg a day (Bodkin et al, Psychiatric Annals 2001; 31:385-391). In fact, those of us who have prescribed it for depression have found it to be a useful drug with fewer nuisance side effects such as weight gain, sexual dysfunction and edema than other MAOIs such as Nardil (phenelzine). Consistent with this more benign side effect profile was a study by Sunderland et al (Arch Gen Psychiatry 1994;51:607-15) in which selegiline successfully treated major depression in treatment-refractory geriatric patients.


So why wasn't oral selegiline marketed to psychiatrists? At low doses, up to 10 mg/day (the dose used to treat Parkinson's Disease), selegiline inhibits only one of the two isoforms of monoamine oxidase enzymes, MAOI-B. Most research has shown that MAO-A inhibition is also necessary to treat depression, and while at higher doses selegeline does inhibit MAO-A, this comes with the disadvantage of requiring the same MAOI dietary limitations as conventional MAOIs. Therefore, there was little economic incentive for Somerset Pharmaceuticals to seek a depression indication for a "me-too" MAOI drug that would likely be prescribed by few psychiatrists.

The MAOI diet and EMSAM
So why does the EMSAM 6 mg patch not require the MAOI diet? And why are low doses in patch form therapeutic when higher doses are required when taken orally? Absorption through the skin sends selegiline directly into the blood stream and toward the brain, sidestepping the liver, where some of the oral MAOI is spent in blocking the breakdown of ingested tyramine. Thus, the patch is able to generate higher levels of MAO-A and MAO-B inhibition in the brain at lower doses with much less inhibition of gut and liver MAO-A. There is enough inhibition of MAO in the brain to produce a therapeutic antidepressant effect, and the absence of MAOI in the liver allows tyramine to be inactivated by intestinal MAO, thereby minimizing the danger of a hypertensive reaction.


The FDA Ruling

Let's return to the FDA decision to limit the removal of MAOI dietary restrictions for the 6 mg patch only, thus creating the complicating situation for clinicians in which pushing the dose to 9 mg or 12 mg requires instructing patients to initiate the MAOI diet. (The FDA hearings on this issue, in all of its 243-page glory, can be viewed at http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/ac/05/transcripts/2005-4186T2.pdf)


How did the FDA determine that 6 mg was the only safe dose? Somerset presented results of a "tyramine pressor test" in which patients were fed tyramine under experimentally controlled research conditions. (In one study, research subjects were asked to eat a few pounds of cheddar and blue cheese over a two hour period!) The increase in blood pressure was only slightly greater for subjects gorging on tyramine with the 6 mg EMSAM patch than for those who ingested tyramine while taking the control drugs, 20 mg fluoxetine or 10 mg oral selegiline. There was enough research data and patient experience to satisfy the FDA that subjects on the 6 mg patch could eat all the tyramine they wanted without incurring any hypertensive risk.


But what did the research data say about the risk of tyramine at the higher doses of EMSAM, such as 9 mg? While there was evidence of a greater potential of a hypertensive effect, the tyramine risk was still much less than found with the comparator classic MAOI, Parnate. However, far fewer subjects were tested at this higher dose than at the 6 mg dose. Thus the manufacturer opted to play it safe in not requesting the lifting of dietary restrictions on the 9 mg dose, even though their naturalistic data set included about 800 people who were on either the 9 or 12 mg patch, had not followed an MAOI diet, and had no problems with hypertension.

From a medico-legal perspective, pending more data, we clinicians may feel equally compelled to recommend an MAOI diet for patients on the 9 and 12 mg patches.

At all doses, EMSAM carries the same medication restrictions as other MAOIs. But here as well some data endorses the cardiovascular safety of sympathomimetics combined with EMSAM (Feinberg, J Clin Psychiatry 2004; 65:1520-1524) and, in particular, Sudafed (pseudoephedrine) in combination with the 6 mg dose of EMSAM (Patkur et al, CNS Spectr 2006;11:363-375).
 
When you guys give an MAOI or a TCA to a patient, what kind of patient are they, typically? Just depression? No axis II?
 
well MAOIs used to be marketed as treatments for borderline personality disorder back in the day. When DSM-III and the new borderline personality disorder made its debut at the APA annual meeting in 1980 there were educational talks about the use of MAOIs in borderline patients. Also MAOIs were described by Nate Kline as especially good in atypical depression where there is increased sensitivity rejection and preserved emotional reactivity, i.e. taking that rare pt with just depression and no characterology should not theoretically be necessary for a good response.

That said, they are not a good bet in pts who are at high risk of overdosing on them. In fact, one of the few things that psychiatrists have done to reduce suicide is to prescribe fewer TCAs and MAOIs.
 
well MAOIs used to be marketed as treatments for borderline personality disorder back in the day. When DSM-III and the new borderline personality disorder made its debut at the APA annual meeting in 1980 there were educational talks about the use of MAOIs in borderline patients. Also MAOIs were described by Nate Kline as especially good in atypical depression where there is increased sensitivity rejection and preserved emotional reactivity, i.e. taking that rare pt with just depression and no characterology should not theoretically be necessary for a good response.

That said, they are not a good bet in pts who are at high risk of overdosing on them. In fact, one of the few things that psychiatrists have done to reduce suicide is to prescribe fewer TCAs and MAOIs.

Wow that's interesting.

The "reason" I'm invariably given by attendings as to why they won't use TCAs or MAOIs is the risk of overdose. But that risk applies to lithium too. Ok I also don't get to see a lot of patients on lithium. Still though it doesn't have the "fear factor" of a TCA!

Is psychiatry becoming more conservative in terms of using medications? I mean back in the day it sounds like psychiatrists actually gave out the TCAs and MAOIs with their inherent risks. Sure I understand that now we have the less risky SSRIs as first line, but a lot of people seem to fail them.

Then again everyone and their mother these days seems to be on an atypical.
 
Wow that's interesting.

The "reason" I'm invariably given by attendings as to why they won't use TCAs or MAOIs is the risk of overdose. But that risk applies to lithium too. Ok I also don't get to see a lot of patients on lithium. Still though it doesn't have the "fear factor" of a TCA!

Is psychiatry becoming more conservative in terms of using medications? I mean back in the day it sounds like psychiatrists actually gave out the TCAs and MAOIs with their inherent risks. Sure I understand that now we have the less risky SSRIs as first line, but a lot of people seem to fail them.

Then again everyone and their mother these days seems to be on an atypical.

Now there are safer medications out there.

The risk of TCA with alcohol use a is big problem.

Litigation has gone waaaay up compared to "back in the day".

Lithium is another concern but you can control the dosing and check levels. It also has so many positive qualities (decreased suicidality, protection against mania, etc).

You can supplement SSRI's with thyroid hormone, and many other things that are safer than stimulants and atypicals. Don't forget therapy too!
 
The "reason" I'm invariably given by attendings as to why they won't use TCAs or MAOIs is the risk of overdose. But that risk applies to lithium too. Ok I also don't get to see a lot of patients on lithium. Still though it doesn't have the "fear factor" of a TCA!

well the acute toxicity of lithium isn't actually as high as many think. it isn't that easy to kill yourself with lithium alone. part of the reason is one of the side effects of lithium toxicity is vomiting so you end up being violently sick and vomiting out most of it. the other thing is lithium overdose is fairly treatable and not rapidly fatal. lithium is a lot more toxic with chronically elevated doses which is what happened in the 1940s when it was used as a salt substitute.

TCA overdose on the other hand is fairly fatal because of the dose-dependent binding to voltage gated sodium channels, and refractory metabolic acidosis. it is fairly difficult to treat. as as groverpsych mentioned unlike lithium, it does not reduce suicide risk and its prescription may increase it. I do think they are underutilized in the US though.
 
Has anyone being using lorazepam challenge test in catatonia? I.e. giving IV lorazepam as a diagnostic challenge for catatonia

We are not allowed to on the psych units because the nurses can't handle it apparently. We are allowed to in the psych ER but no one ever has. My attending said I could, but the nurses started flapping their arms complaining what would happen if the pt stopped breathing? What could IV accomplish that PO couldn't?! I said I would push it myself, but nope, and then the attending back down...

What about amytal interviewing for dissociative disorders? I really wanna learn this one?

Or ketamine infusions for treatment-refractory depression? We are using it as an augmentation agent for pts undergoing ECT but currently not on its own (but will be soon). Have also heard po ketamine is being used in some places for depression at the end-of-life...
 
Has anyone being using lorazepam challenge test in catatonia? I.e. giving IV lorazepam as a diagnostic challenge for catatonia

We are not allowed to on the psych units because the nurses can't handle it apparently. We are allowed to in the psych ER but no one ever has. My attending said I could, but the nurses started flapping their arms complaining what would happen if the pt stopped breathing? What could IV accomplish that PO couldn't?! I said I would push it myself, but nope, and then the attending back down...

What about amytal interviewing for dissociative disorders? I really wanna learn this one?

Or ketamine infusions for treatment-refractory depression? We are using it as an augmentation agent for pts undergoing ECT but currently not on its own (but will be soon). Have also heard po ketamine is being used in some places for depression at the end-of-life...

I've done the lorazepam challenge test a few times- and it's AMAZING! I've never had a chance to do it with IV lorazpam on the psych service though - and I'm not sure the nurses would be comfortable with it. I have had nurses on the psych service find a way to get PO ativan into a catatonic patient and had decent results (although not as dramatic). Basically, at my hospital catatonia presenting to the ER or as a transfer goes to medicine to work up medical causes of the catatonia. Then psych sees the patient on the consult service and gives the lorazepam there.

One of my attendings saw a teenager on intranasal oxytocin and it seemed to work well according to the attending.
 
Has anyone being using lorazepam challenge test in catatonia? I.e. giving IV lorazepam as a diagnostic challenge for catatonia

We are not allowed to on the psych units because the nurses can't handle it apparently. .

Hard to do because many psych units don't do IV's period, so the IV challenge can only really be done in a medical ward on your consult rotation.

But an IM challenge should be something you do a bunch of times in residency. Perhaps not quite as dramatic as IV, but still pretty darn fast. Catatonia isn't as rare as it seems, especially in milder forms. If you're not doing at least a few parenteral lorazepam challenges as part of your training, you're not looking hard enough for catatonia. Bottom line.
 
I've done IM Ativan on the psych floor a few times with pretty awesome effects. Like, me and my attending gave each other a high five after this catatonic kid started eating a bag of cheetos about 20 minutes after the shot!

I will say that doing the IV challenge on the consult service is one of the most magic things. For once, the nurses suddenly look at you like you are a total genius. They quickly forget five minutes later, but for a good 300 seconds, you are the awesomest doctor in the hospital.
 
I've done IM Ativan on the psych floor a few times with pretty awesome effects. Like, me and my attending gave each other a high five after this catatonic kid started eating a bag of cheetos about 20 minutes after the shot!

I will say that doing the IV challenge on the consult service is one of the most magic things. For once, the nurses suddenly look at you like you are a total genius. They quickly forget five minutes later, but for a good 300 seconds, you are the awesomest doctor in the hospital.

we need to show up with robes and pointy hats and mutter incantations before we give it so they think we are wizards. 😀
 
Hard to do because many psych units don't do IV's period, so the IV challenge can only really be done in a medical ward on your consult rotation.

How about just putting in your own IV?

Also who on earth would a nurse be afraid to give IV ativan? It's bread and butter on any medicine floor.
 
well when i said I would put the IV in draw up to ativan and give it myself, the nurses still huffed and puffed and I gave up.

I have given lorazepam challenges, we love catatonia here there is lots of it but have never given it IV.

On our psych units pts have IVs all the time so its not about the IV itself, just the use of 2mg IV lorazepam seems to frighten them for some reason.

Can't you override a nurse's objections? Especially if you are putting it in yourself? What if a nurse said to an anesthesiologist--I refuse to allow you to intubate this patient because something might go wrong?

In a last resort, could you transfer the patient to the medical ER, and then do it yourself? If I got that kind of trouble from a nurse, well first I'd talk to my attending, but say I was the attending, and I thought the patient needed the treatment, that's what I'd do.

But let me guess--the attending didn't back you up... (Sounds like it anyway.)
 
Can't you override a nurse's objections? Especially if you are putting it in yourself? What if a nurse said to an anesthesiologist--I refuse to allow you to intubate this patient because something might go wrong?

In a last resort, could you transfer the patient to the medical ER, and then do it yourself? If I got that kind of trouble from a nurse, well first I'd talk to my attending, but say I was the attending, and I thought the patient needed the treatment, that's what I'd do.

But let me guess--the attending didn't back you up... (Sounds like it anyway.)

A nurse could say to an anesthesiologist preparing to do a nonemergent intubation (in a slowly decompensating patient), "please transfer the patient to the ICU prior to intubating". It's hard to override a nurse's objection.

There are some legal issues involved in transfering a patient from an inpatient unit to the ER of the same hospital
 
There are some legal issues involved in transfering a patient from an inpatient unit to the ER of the same hospital

Right. I think in the post I was replying to, the patient had been in a psych EC, and I meant that I'd transfer them across the hall to the medical EC where they should have only the greatest pleasure about giving IV ativan. Would be different if it was an inpatient.
 
Right. I think in the post I was replying to, the patient had been in a psych EC, and I meant that I'd transfer them across the hall to the medical EC where they should have only the greatest pleasure about giving IV ativan. Would be different if it was an inpatient.

sorry, I misread the post
 
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