Masters during internship/residency

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adagio

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I wanted to ask you guys about the possibility of completing an MPH or MS (in biostat. for example) during the years of internal medicine residency.

Do you think that it might be a good idea to start it during PGY2 and PGY3, or do you think that it would be feasible during internship.

What advice could you give to those who want to do masters during their residency?

Thank you
 
adagio said:
I wanted to ask you guys about the possibility of completing an MPH or MS (in biostat. for example) during the years of internal medicine residency.

Do you think that it might be a good idea to start it during PGY2 and PGY3, or do you think that it would be feasible during internship.

What advice could you give to those who want to do masters during their residency?

Thank you
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if u're going into IM and want to do an MPH, you can apply for preventive medicine residencies (or fellowships), then u have the time built into your program (although it ends up as an extra year or two if u have a practicum year; each program is very different so look into it - some are with SPHs, others are with depts of public health; cdc has a fellowship) and u get the MPH financially covered as part of your residency or fellowship. a friend of mine is doing exactly this...his IM residency at kaiser and his MPH (covered) at berkeley (i think through an affiliated program with ucsf?). prev med has several subspecialties u apply through (aerospace med, occup med, general prev med, public health)
 
Thank you so much for your replies:

I am not particularly interested in Preventive medicine, but I actually like Biostatistics, Epi, and clinical research.

I am interested in pursuing a career in academia, and want to pursue clinical research.

i applied to categorical programs, so i will start a categorical IM training, with interest in hepatology and GI.

So I understand that if the program itself doesnt accommodate the possibility of integrating the masters with the residency, it wont be feasible.

I wish that friends here who had this experience could comment on how the best way to approach the matter.

Thanks
 
adagio said:
Thank you so much for your replies:

I am not particularly interested in Preventive medicine, but I actually like Biostatistics, Epi, and clinical research.

I am interested in pursuing a career in academia, and want to pursue clinical research.

i applied to categorical programs, so i will start a categorical IM training, with interest in hepatology and GI.

So I understand that if the program itself doesnt accommodate the possibility of integrating the masters with the residency, it wont be feasible.

I wish that friends here who had this experience could comment on how the best way to approach the matter.

Thanks
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Without a combined IM/PrevMed program, there won't be a way to integrate this into your residency. Period. End of discussion. There's just not enough time.

It is relatively common to do this as part of a fellowship however, and many institutions have some sort of Masters program (clinical investigation, clinical research, public health, whatever) that can be incorporated into a fellowship program. The caveat to this is that it will almost invariable require at least 1 extra year in your training.
 
Thanks Gutonc. Its good to know that its definitely not possible to do this on my own through correspondence.

I will try to do this during my fellowship (hopefully). I dont mind for my training to be extended even for 2 years. The only concern with me is J1 visa (time limit is 7 years, but I have heard it can be extended for 1 year if one applies. 7 wont be enough for IM+Chief+fellow+Postgrad.
 
adagio said:
Thanks Gutonc. Its good to know that its definitely not possible to do this on my own through correspondence.

I will try to do this during my fellowship (hopefully). I dont mind for my training to be extended even for 2 years. The only concern with me is J1 visa (time limit is 7 years, but I have heard it can be extended for 1 year if one applies. 7 wont be enough for IM+Chief+fellow+Postgrad.
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Why in the name of all that is good in the world would you want to be a Chief?
 
@Adagio,
looking at doing the same thing with plans for M.S. in aerospace engineering to go with aerospace med... so far I've decided to just postpone it till finishing residency. Some of the bigger universities have distance education programs you can look into, doing a class or two per semester over 3-4 years though.

Current intern in IM BTW. Flat out there is not enough time unless its integrated into your curriculum. A ward/ICU/night float month breaks 80 hours easy, Then add on reading, morning reports, test prep... If I could do it over again though, find an IM program that's heavy on outpatient and electives... a lot of hospital time is wasted, you can put it to more productive interests that way and double up, saving a year of opportunity cost.
 
I thought it might offer good experience in the (managerial aspects of medicine, as well as the political aspect of it). Moreover, I have been told it enhances fellowship opportunities (why that is the case is really not evident, but maybe because if i am selected chief this means i am well liked by the program??) I have no idea
 
StevenRF said:
@Adagio,
looking at doing the same thing with plans for M.S. in aerospace engineering to go with aerospace med... so far I've decided to just postpone it till finishing residency. Some of the bigger universities have distance education programs you can look into, doing a class or two per semester over 3-4 years though.

Current intern in IM BTW. Flat out there is not enough time unless its integrated into your curriculum. A ward/ICU/night float month breaks 80 hours easy, Then add on reading, morning reports, test prep... If I could do it over again though, find an IM program that's heavy on outpatient and electives... a lot of hospital time is wasted, you can put it to more productive interests that way and double up, saving a year of opportunity cost.
Click to expand...


Thank you so much Steve. best of luck on your aerospace medicine plans (this sounds really sophisticated!!)

There are couple of programs that you could do the masters through correspondence, and be physically there for 2 weeks per year, over 2 (or 3 years depending on the program).

I think integrating this with the fellowship is the best option as Gutonc suggested. I will get GRE out of the way though (I dont have MCATs) (do you know how long is GRE valid for?)

some professors at my institution (where i am doing research) suggested that I could concentrate on doing clinical research during residency and publish quality papers, and this would have more weight than a postgrad degree for future academic positions in universities. whats your take on this guys?
 
adagio said:
some professors at my institution (where i am doing research) suggested that I could concentrate on doing clinical research during residency and publish quality papers, and this would have more weight than a postgrad degree for future academic positions in universities. whats your take on this guys?
Click to expand...

They are correct.
 
adagio said:
Moreover, I have been told it enhances fellowship opportunities (why that is the case is really not evident, but maybe because if i am selected chief this means i am well liked by the program??) I have no idea
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If you want to do academic Gen Med or you want to go into administration or you think that shooting nails into your eyeballs with a nail gun is a pleasurable experience but doesn't quite get you off, then definitely be a Chief resident.
 
Hahahahah Gutonc. this is hilarious lol

Could you tell me, then why, for Odin's sake, do fellowships consider you more competitive with Chief Resident year!?!?!?!?
 
GRE is good for usually around 5 years, program specific though. It's a pretty easy test compared to MCAT or USMLE, just took mine. Do the MPH programs actually require it though if you doing it through residency or fellowship? I was under the impression not.
 
Some of them do indeed require GRE!! So i might as well study for it. I think I did well on my USMLEs, and was comfortable studying for them, so if GRE is easier, then I will take it soon. Thank you so much for the tips.
 
adagio said:
Hahahahah Gutonc. this is hilarious lol

Could you tell me, then why, for Odin's sake, do fellowships consider you more competitive with Chief Resident year!?!?!?!?
Click to expand...

They don't consider you more competitive. They consider you someone who will do whatever it takes to get the fellowship you want and, therefore, someone they can abuse during fellowship.
 
O_O

hehehehehe ... I kid you not, I have been hearing this Chief thing, and how it definitely improves one's fellowship options. never thought the reason would be that you mentioned ... lol
 
I will check it right away. Is this an online program?
 
Thank you so much for the tip. I will research it well. I really appreciate it.
 
adagio said:
...

Could you tell me, then why, for Odin's sake, do fellowships consider you more competitive with Chief Resident year!?!?!?!?
Click to expand...

Shows you have leadership skills, don't mind shouldering extra grunt work, and in places where it's elected/appointed shows that you are well regarded by your colleagues.

But I agree with your prior statement, in most cases for the research heavy fields the guy with lots of solid research, presentations and papers during residency is going to generate more academic interest than the guy with the MPH or chief on his resume.
 
Thanks a lot. Then I shall work on research (mostly) clinical during my residency. this is going to be fun!!!!!
 
StevenRF said:
GRE is good for usually around 5 years, program specific though. It's a pretty easy test compared to MCAT or USMLE, just took mine. Do the MPH programs actually require it though if you doing it through residency or fellowship? I was under the impression not.
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i'm doing an mph now while applying to residencies. if u have mcat scores, most, if not all, mph will accept that in lieu of gre. i think for im/prev med residencies, they still ask for some test score (gre or mcat). fellowship, it farther out and i'm not there yet so i'm not sure b/c even mcat scores would be old and maybe not even still on record by then.

most of the physicians/residents/med students in my mph program are either taking a year off or doing it through prev med fellowship (wish i could've then i wouldn't have to borrow more for tuition and get the same ed basically). i don't think anyone i know is doing it through im/prev med residency (but like i said i have a friend doing that through ucsf so it can be done). one person who is an ortho resident in the same city as our school seems to have a very nice residency program that allows him 3 months off here and there (electives?) and he does his mph work during those time periods. my mph program can be done in 9 months if u double up on courses or get a lot of transfer credits.
 
Thanks Alchemist,

My major problems are: my visa status, I will be on a J1 visa, dont know if years off after residency could be feasible, I heard that J1 could indeed be extended, but its not very straightforward.

My best bet was a combined PhD and Residency, unfortunately, due to my visa status, i am not eligible for NIH funding on the grant that the prospective institution is on
 
I dont understand your worry about visa. Once u done with fellowship...u can go on an F1 to do graduate course work. And I think there is a possibility of switching from J1 clinical to J1 research to do Masters. Ofcos u cant see patients. Even if J1 clinical had a 100 years limit...ECFMG wont sponsor that for u to specifically do Masters unless it is in an integrated IM-MPH program
Or u can do the masters during your waiver.
 
My understanding is that once my J1 clinical business is done, I must return to my country!!! or I must do a waiver, i didnt know I could still apply to F1 visa immediately after J1 visa! Its worth looking into.
 
From J1 clinical u can always go to any non immigrant intent visa like B1,F1 etc
What u cant convert to is something like H1b(immigrant intent), or green card.

J1 clinical can be extended for an extra one year=8th year. But once u go down that route....even a waiver in the USA becomes complicated becos they grant it under compelling circumstances that your home xtry needs u to really train an extra year.
 
oh wow wow ... thank you so so so so much ... I didnt know that extension would be such a mess. I wont do it at all.

Also, i was misinformed and told that no visa of any kind can be given after J1 clin. before completing the 2 years return of service.
 
You can get an F after a J-1. However, you need to leave the country to do so. You can go back home, or you can actually go to Canada or Mexico and apply at a Consulate. Regardless, switching from a J to an F isn't exactly easy. And it doesn't count towards your 2 year requirement.
 
Thank you aProgDirector

I will definitely avoid any kind of visas after J1, and either go back home for 2 years, or do the waiver in the US.

If a university-based program has a VA hopsital, is it always possible to do the waiver in it? or would that be difficult?
 
Oh, what i meant by my question, is that after J1 visa, i must do a waiver to be eligible to stay in the US, is this waiver always feasible in a VA setting? are VAs considered (under-served) places? Thanks
 
VA's are immune to the "underserved" issue. Any VA can sponsor a J waiver. Whether or not they will do so is anyone's guess -- I would assume that VA's that have trouble recruiting docs might. But it is possible.
 
This is great info. It means if one is accepted in a program that has affiliation with a VA, and then prove her/himself to be competent and good, they might be interested in recruiting him under their waiver, and thus one would keep his research projects that might be ongoing, with other academic ties with the program, while they do the fellowship!

in a nutshell, this is my prospective plan! 🙂
 
This is a terrible plan. Whilst VAs can sponsor J1 waivers they can only do so if it is part of a concerted recruitment effort, not for a given individual so it is not about you doing good work. Also the point is to fill spots where no US doctors will fill. If there is a US doctor with a pulse who can fill the position then you can't be appointed on a visa waiver. Also J1 waivers are to fill service requirements so you cant train on a visa waiver so no fellowships can be completed on the waiver.

If it was really as easy as this don't you think many more people would be doing so? As it stands it is very difficult to get a J1 waiver. So yes it is possibility, but it is not a good plan.
 
What other choices do I have? I could go back home (my residence country is big on research, and its kinda on par with the US). I could do some research for 2 years, or perhaps clinical work, and then come back to the US.

I believe in America, and I like to continue my life there.
 
well another ridiculous plan is to be so amazing you qualify for an O-1 visa which will get you your waiver.

the reality is it is increasingly difficult to waive the 2 year requirement and the ideal thing would be to get a H1 visa. i assume there is some reason why you cant get this?
 
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Not really. if you get the waiver, and do your time (lol no pun intended) you are free to get any visa afterwards, even greencard, without having to leave the US
 
you will have to leave the US even if you get a waiver as you will need a visa (most likely H1B) - a waiver waives the 2 year requirement not the requirement to have a visa. In order to transfer onto another visa you will have to leave the country. i am not sure what you are disputing - it isn't easy to get a waiver and you will have to leave the country to change onto another visa. but leaving the country isnt an issue it is a formality.
 
getting a waiver in internal medicine isnt really difficult (assuming you are willing to work anywhere, and I mean anywhere (wyoming for instance!!). Not easy, but not difficult either. I know tens of people who are getting waiver jobs easily.

Leaving the country to get the visa: Perhaps that might be the case, i am not sure, perhaps a lawyer could offer a way for the visa to be converted after doing the waiver inside the US. B1/B2 visa could be converted routinely to H1B while in the US (J1 could as well from what i hear, but its much more difficult, and you certainly need a lawyer for that)
 
splik said:
you will have to leave the US even if you get a waiver as you will need a visa (most likely H1B) - a waiver waives the 2 year requirement not the requirement to have a visa. In order to transfer onto another visa you will have to leave the country. i am not sure what you are disputing - it isn't easy to get a waiver and you will have to leave the country to change onto another visa. but leaving the country isnt an issue it is a formality.
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Actually, I believe this may be incorrect. When you get a J waiver, you essentially change your J visa into an H visa that's conditional upon your employment. So, once the waiver is "completed", you then still have an H visa, can continue to work in the US, and would be eligible for an employer based green card application. H visas allow such "dual intent".
 
Hate to revive an old thread, but I am curious about this myself. I am starting residency at a program that regularly offers 1-2 years of additional protected research time. I am intrerested in academic medicine/ research, but my statistics/ epi background is pretty weak and I think it would be nice to take some stats classes or complete a one year masters program during protected residency time. Anyone do something like this?
 
CBG23 said:
Hate to revive an old thread, but I am curious about this myself. I am starting residency at a program that regularly offers 1-2 years of additional protected research time. I am intrerested in academic medicine/ research, but my statistics/ epi background is pretty weak and I think it would be nice to take some stats classes or complete a one year masters program during protected residency time. Anyone do something like this?
Click to expand...
As mentioned above the places that offer a 1-2 year research component usually want you to actually crank out research during that interval. Also when they say 1-2 years sometimes they mean 1 unless the research you are doing justifies a second year. So to the extent you sneak in a stats class it needs to be on the side, not a full slate of coursework. The new rules that treat residents as employees make getting away with just spending a year or two taking courses considerably more complicated as well.
 
adagio said:
I wanted to ask you guys about the possibility of completing an MPH or MS (in biostat. for example) during the years of internal medicine residency.

Do you think that it might be a good idea to start it during PGY2 and PGY3, or do you think that it would be feasible during internship.

What advice could you give to those who want to do masters during their residency?

Thank you
Click to expand...

I wouldn't do it. When I got home from work during internship/residency, all I wanted to do was relax, maybe read a little bit about my specialty, eat, and go to bed. I couldn't imagine adding extra classes on top of that.
 
Top Gun said:
I wouldn't do it. When I got home from work during internship/residency, all I wanted to do was relax, maybe read a little bit about my specialty, eat, and go to bed. I couldn't imagine adding extra classes on top of that.
Click to expand...

The guy you are responding to posted three years ago and likely is done with internship by now.
 
reflecting on my own experience during 2 years of medicine residency in a university program, I can agree with all the discussion that we exchanged previously. In essence, it is not possible to pursue formal masters classes during residency, however, if the program is integrated (e.g. IM/preventative medicine) then it could work. Otherwise, publications are more important in my opinion. Publishing during internship is possible, especially if your research started and took momentum prior to starting residency.
best wishes.
 
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