Deleted Thread

[deleted1088572]

deleted

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[psych.meout]

1. It's not a matter of not being allowed to "take" your master's degree if you master-out of your doctoral program. It's your degree, you earned it and you get to keep it. The issue is more that the non-terminal master's you earn during the program isn't (generally) licensable. In most cases, you won't be able to master-out and go get licensed as a master's-level counselor. You can get research jobs (e.g., coordinator) with that degree, if you were interested in doing that.
2. No, they won't accept you without research experience. Completing a thesis and earning a master's degree is just one of the program requirements, not something you'd agree to do in exchange for being accepted without research experience. Besides fit with the program and faculty, research experience is the most important consideration for acceptance.
3. Depends on what you want to do. You can practice and adjunct with just a licensable terminal master's degree.
4. Impossible to tell without knowing you. Your comment about "being pretty much on your own:" isn't really accurate. You have a cohort, a lab, a mentor, supervisors, and others who are there to work with and support you. Yes, there is variability for each of these dynamics, but I don't know anyone who was ever on their own like what you're describing.
6. Grad school has been pretty good. Not always great, but not terrible.

 

[deleted1088572]

1. It's not a matter of not being allowed to "take" your master's degree if you master-out of your doctoral program. It's your degree, you earned it and you get to keep it. The issue is more that the non-terminal master's you earn during the program isn't (generally) licensable. In most cases, you won't be able to master-out and go get licensed as a master's-level counselor. You can get research jobs (e.g., coordinator) with that degree, if you were interested in doing that.
2. No, they won't accept you without research experience. Completing a thesis and earning a master's degree is just one of the program requirements, not something you'd agree to do in exchange for being accepted without research experience. Besides fit with the program and faculty, research experience is the most important consideration for acceptance.
3. Depends on what you want to do. You can practice and adjunct with just a licensable terminal master's degree.
4. Impossible to tell without knowing you. Your comment about "being pretty much on your own:" isn't really accurate. You have a cohort, a lab, a mentor, supervisors, and others who are there to work with and support you. Yes, there is variability for each of these dynamics, but I don't know anyone who was ever on their own like what you're describing.
6. Grad school has been pretty good. Not always great, but not terrible.

deleted

 

[smalltownpsych]

If getting a bachelors was tough for you, I don’t know if going for a PhD makes much sense. I guess it depends on why it was so hard. I found that my doctoral program challenged me intellectually and emotionally and it was like drinking through a fire hose. Meanwhile, most of my academic experience prior was a breeze. If it’s more of a social thing though, I actually struggled more in the huge university setting than the small cohort setting in the doctoral program. Also, I don’t think working in a therapy office will matter much but the research experience should count for something even if it’s not directly in psych. Probably depends on what you did and whether the experience will translate easily to the type of research you would be involved in at the PhD level. You mentioned neuroscience so that would seem pretty relevant to me.

 

[summerbabe]

Most importantly to me was that a PhD could allow me to teach if I come to find that practicing isn’t for me.

Teaching is always an option (and much easier with a PhD) but is not necessarily a viable ‘fallback’ since tenure track positions are extremely competitive and require significant dedication and focus. My friends who received such positions worked waaaaaay harder than me during their PhD.

Teaching as a backup or part time option will almost certainly be as an adjunct professor. And while it sounds and seems prestigious, you’d 100% be better off financially assistant managing a Chik Fil A or In & Out.

Basically, I want to know if I can be done after a master’s in PhD programs, and how will I know if a PhD program I apply to allows for that sort of termination?

If a student drops out of a PhD program, they will be at the mercy of the program as to what degree they can leave school with. Often times, it may be an MA that is not license eligible. Some programs may be able to offer an MS that is license eligible but don't bank on it. And some programs may not offer a degree at all. A program student handbook will almost certainly have info on the MA on route to the PhD requirements but I doubt it will specifically speak to dropping out options.

Would you say this research experience has to be specific to the field of psychology & longer than two semesters?
And could volunteer work in the field and time spent working in a therapy office possibly make up for the lack of research?

Think about it this way - there are literally tens of thousands of undergrads who have similar general background (smart, interested in psych, did well in undergrad) so PhD programs are trying to differentiate those who are most adequately prepared for grad school success and research experience (including opportunities to contribute to academic posters and peer reviewed journal articles in a psychology subfield) is likely the best measure of academic success.

With quality research experience, you'd know which of your interests can be appropriately researched, how to identify specific questions, what types of methodologies would be utilized, how you'd analyze collected data, etc.

Volunteering and adjacent experiences can help demonstrate interest and commitment to this field but will generally not substitute for genuine research experience for PhD admissions.

 

[R. Matey]

I like the idea of a PhD because it can potentially open up doors for you and make pay a little better (how much better I can’t for the life of me figure out where they keep that information).

Check out the Occupational Outlook Handbook put out by the Department of Labor for reliable pay information though most would agree that these figures are skewed a bit downward. The Center for Workforce Studies in APA also publishes pay information.

Most importantly to me was that a PhD could allow me to teach if I come to find that practicing isn’t for me. Whether or not practicing is for me is pretty much an uncertainty until I do it, I think. But I was told that you can practice and even teach with a master’s at some schools (I’m mostly talking about higher education), if you are highly specialized or the school’s requirements allow for it.

Lol, I remember hearing this a lot when I was a master's level clinician. If you're thinking about something aside from the occasional low-paying adjunct position, you're gonna need a doctorate (preferably a Ph.D.). Even then, it might be a crap shoot. But think about it: the master's level professions all have their own versions of Ph.Ds. so you probably need whatever degree they have if you want to do their job.

Despite the Master’s being a good option, PhD was the path I was sure I was going to take until I came across a certain Reddit post about people’s experience with a PhD in clinical psychology. This person was really struggling. They felt stuck in their program, overwhelmed, overworked, and depressed. They felt they were always falling behind and were missing out on precious years with friends and family. They had no social life outside the program or time to themselves. They enjoyed the field but were burnt out. They were basically miserable but trying to complete their degree. Others could relate. That person ended up dropping their program for their mental well-being.

Reading that thread really stuck with me, because in my worst semesters in undergrad, I know what that person was talking about. Constantly studying only to feel behind and have no life outside of the program, struggling with low self-worth and dissatisfaction with life is not how I want to spend the next 5-8 years of my life.

Graduate student mental health is indeed an important problem in higher education and more needs to be done. There are a lot of details that are unknown here so I'd encourage you to not overgeneralize this person's experience to your own. I won't pretend graduate school is easy because it's not. It's possible to make it through, many do so, but you may need to decide for yourself if you want to take this on. No one can really answer that for you.

I am aware that this may not be my experience, but in case it is, ideally, I want to apply to PhD programs that allow you to get your Master’s degree and stop there (or continue until PhD is achieved). So I want to have that choice, in case my experience is similar. I thought that is what a “dual degree program” is, but I’m also understanding that dual degree might just mean that you are getting a master’s on your way to a PhD, and get to say you have both degrees. That’s not important to me. What I want is to be able to, halfway through the program, have a degree (Masters) I can practice with and call it quits, if I want to.

A small minority of programs in counseling psychology accept people who have already completed a master's in counseling, which by itself is a licensable degree. These programs are becoming fewer as the years roll on and you will likely need to move at least once to attend one. For clinical psychology, B.A. level admits are far more the norm and if you get a master's en route it will not be a licensable degree in most states.

a) some “dual degree” programs won’t allow you to take your master’s if you don’t finish the program - but what’s the point of that and •how would I know if that’s the policy for a program?•

b) if I apply to a master’s (only) program first and then later to a PhD program, most credits won’t transfer over, because PhD programs want to start you from zero. So it’s a waste of time and money to pursue one and then the other especially at different schools.

a. Each program publishes their own student handbook. These will contain the program policies.
b. Transfer policies vary by program and subfield of psychology. I'm gathering you would like to have a licensable back-up option in the case the Ph.D. goes south on you. You are certainly free to do this, but you will likely be starting over if you were to pursue clinical psychology.

c) Although I don’t know very many clinical psychology PhD’s I have heard complaints about PhD’s in general because you’re pretty much on your own and it’s a lengthy commitment, etc. so for those who chose that path, do you have regrets or advice?

d) I decided I want to be in a PhD program ideally and not PsyD, even though I am aware it’s more difficult to be accepted into a PhD program, because debt is a major factor for me and I’m really trying to avoid that. (Although someone has told me PsyD’s may be more likely to offer a master’s that you can stop after receiving).

e) I do not yet have research experience in psychology (I have two semesters of research experience unrelated to psychology), but my undergrad degree is in neuroscience if that helps and I work at a therapy office. I saw some advice to pursue a masters in the case of no research, because it would make up for lack of research when you apply to PhD or a masters could give me research experience. - Apparently, from what I read, my chances of getting into a PhD program without research is slim to none, • so is this true and would the type of dual degree program I want still accept me without research? •

f) If I were to pursue a PhD in psychology, my areas of interest include: immigrant populations, war trauma, racial/social factors as they relate to mental health, community, decolonization, etc.

g) letting myself "live life" sooner than later, like starting a family, working, traveling after my master's then going back later in life for PhD seems appealing but I'm not sure

h) I live in a state where master's lets you work and even open up a practice after supervision (I work in a therapy office)

c. The nice thing about the Ph.D is that it's a flexible degree. If you want to be a practitioner (which it sounds like you do), you aren't restricted to just private practice. You could work in hospitals, clinics, educational settings, etc.
d. Whoever told you that is wrong. Only master's degrees in counseling, social work, and marriage and family therapy are licensable. Master's degrees in clinical psychology, whether they come from a Psy.D. or Ph.D. program, are not typically licensable though some might be able to get an LPC through the backdoor depending on where you live, but I wouldn't hedge my bets on it.
e. Some programs might, but if you want a funded program, you may think of trying to volunteer in a research lab to gain experience. It's not uncommon for clinically balanced programs to accept people without publications, but you need to be able to show that you understand what's going on in the research department when you start. You don't have to know everything, but you'll need to be a fully functioning lab member when you start. So think of it like gaining skills necessary to do a job.
f. Awesome topic.
g. Take it from someone who actually did this, it has its drawbacks. Graduate school is a lot harder with a family in tow and I have privilege in spades. There were missed opportunities that had real consequences because I delayed starting and had a family during. I don't regret, would do it again in heartbeat, but it does cost.
h. Every state allows master's level clinicians to practice independently.

 

[deleted1088572]

If getting a bachelors was tough for you, I don’t know if going for a PhD makes much sense. I guess it depends on why it was so hard. I found that my doctoral program challenged me intellectually and emotionally and it was like drinking through a fire hose. Meanwhile, most of my academic experience prior was a breeze. If it’s more of a social thing though, I actually struggled more in the huge university setting than the small cohort setting in the doctoral program. Also, I don’t think working in a therapy office will matter much but the research experience should count for something even if it’s not directly in psych. Probably depends on what you did and whether the experience will translate easily to the type of research you would be involved in at the PhD level. You mentioned neuroscience so that would seem pretty relevant to me.

deleted

 

[deleted1088572]

Teaching is always an option (and much easier with a PhD) but is not necessarily a viable ‘fallback’ since tenure track positions are extremely competitive and require significant dedication and focus. My friends who received such positions worked waaaaaay harder than me during their PhD.

Teaching as a backup or part time option will almost certainly be as an adjunct professor. And while it sounds and seems prestigious, you’d 100% be better off financially assistant managing a Chik Fil A or In & Out.

If a student drops out of a PhD program, they will be at the mercy of the program as to what degree they can leave school with. Often times, it may be an MA that is not license eligible. Some programs may be able to offer an MS that is license eligible but don't bank on it. And some programs may not offer a degree at all. A program student handbook will almost certainly have info on the MA on route to the PhD requirements but I doubt it will specifically speak to dropping out options.

Think about it this way - there are literally tens of thousands of undergrads who have similar general background (smart, interested in psych, did well in undergrad) so PhD programs are trying to differentiate those who are most adequately prepared for grad school success and research experience (including opportunities to contribute to academic posters and peer reviewed journal articles in a psychology subfield) is likely the best measure of academic success.

With quality research experience, you'd know which of your interests can be appropriately researched, how to identify specific questions, what types of methodologies would be utilized, how you'd analyze collected data, etc.

Volunteering and adjacent experiences can help demonstrate interest and commitment to this field but will generally not substitute for genuine research experience for PhD admissions.

deleted

 

[deleted1088572]

Graduate student mental health is indeed an important problem in higher education and more needs to be done. There are a lot of details that are unknown here so I'd encourage you to not overgeneralize this person's experience to your own. I won't pretend graduate school is easy because it's not. It's possible to make it through, many do so, but you may need to decide for yourself if you want to take this on. No one can really answer that for you.

deleted

 

[ccool]

To me, it sounds like you know pretty clearly that you’re interested in practicing and you’d like to get the credentials you need to do that sooner than later. As you already know, a clinical psych PhD is not aligned with those goals. A MSW + some business sense + a bit of specialization to set off your brand will set you up just fine for private practice. You’ll have to pay for the MSW, but if the primary reason you’re interested in the clinical PhD over other pathways to a clinical career is education cost, I think you’re in for an uphill battle.

Edit: given your interests, you’ll likely be happiest working in community mental health or an outpatient center in an academic medical center, in which case the MSW would still serve you well.

As others have stated, in most states, a MA along the way of the clinical PhD is not able to be licensed. Furthermore, clinical PhD programs are designed for students who are interested in attaining their PhD. A big reason PIs are interested in students with decent research experience is because it is one of many factors that lets them know you know what you are in for and that you have used a number of skills needed to succeed in their program. Even with larger cohorts of 10-12, programs are seeking to minimize their attrition and are not seeking to fund students who are essentially planning to quit.

The people I know who struggled the hardest in grad school and/or quit along the way were the ones who were pursuing the clinical PhD in order to have a clinical PhD, and that’s it. They remained envious of their friends who were having kids and buying houses and making good money as they were progressing in their careers. During really stressful times the only real internal motivation they had was related to avoiding shame they had associated with quitting. They had moments of joy and pride of course, but mostly they were stressed and miserable. I’m not sure what they’re up to now.

I’m sure you’ll find the best path for you regardless.

 

[R. Matey]

Honestly, ideally I don't want to "take this on." I would not willingly choose to be tied down to one place or program for so many years of my life, especially because it may mean moving away from my parents/family, but it looks like I really don't have other options to get to my end goal and pursue what I am really interested in and believe is important.

It sounds like your end goal is clinical practice, which is 100% achievable with an MSW, some business sense, and the right set of training experiences as @ccool was saying. Don't get hung up on "not being a doctor," what's more important is being a competent practitioner.

Also, do you mind sharing a little more about "missed opportunities that had real consequences" because you delayed starting and had a family during?

Sure, I mean being a parent during a doctoral program means you don't maybe take on a second prac to niche in a certain area or pass up an attractive collaboration because your partner needs you to coparent. That kind of thing. In the end, we only have so many hours in a day. The consequences are less hours on your APPI, fewer graduate school pubs etc.

 

[deleted1088572]

To me, it sounds like you know pretty clearly that you’re interested in practicing and you’d like to get the credentials you need to do that sooner than later. As you already know, a clinical psych PhD is not aligned with those goals. A MSW + some business sense + a bit of specialization to set off your brand will set you up just fine for private practice. You’ll have to pay for the MSW, but if the primary reason you’re interested in the clinical PhD over other pathways to a clinical career is education cost, I think you’re in for an uphill battle.

Edit: given your interests, you’ll likely be happiest working in community mental health or an outpatient center in an academic medical center, in which case the MSW would still serve you well.

As others have stated, in most states, a MA along the way of the clinical PhD is not able to be licensed. Furthermore, clinical PhD programs are designed for students who are interested in attaining their PhD. A big reason PIs are interested in students with decent research experience is because it is one of many factors that lets them know you know what you are in for and that you have used a number of skills needed to succeed in their program. Even with larger cohorts of 10-12, programs are seeking to minimize their attrition and are not seeking to fund students who are essentially planning to quit.

The people I know who struggled the hardest in grad school and/or quit along the way were the ones who were pursuing the clinical PhD in order to have a clinical PhD, and that’s it. They remained envious of their friends who were having kids and buying houses and making good money as they were progressing in their careers. During really stressful times the only real internal motivation they had was related to avoiding shame they had associated with quitting. They had moments of joy and pride of course, but mostly they were stressed and miserable. I’m not sure what they’re up to now.

I’m sure you’ll find the best path for you regardless.

Deleted

 

[deleted1088572]

It sounds like your end goal is clinical practice, which is 100% achievable with an MSW, some business sense, and the right set of training experiences as @ccool was saying. Don't get hung up on "not being a doctor," what's more important is being a competent practitioner.



Sure, I mean being a parent during a doctoral program means you don't maybe take on a second prac to niche in a certain area or pass up an attractive collaboration because your partner needs you to coparent. That kind of thing. In the end, we only have so many hours in a day. The consequences are less hours on your APPI, fewer graduate school pubs etc.

Deleted

 

[summerbabe]

So I am understanding that I need to choose the degree now and won't have the option to change my mind in a few years after dipping my toes in it.

There is a major supply and demand imbalance for good research and academic jobs so you're competing against a much stiffer talent pool than for almost any clinical job since lots of people would also enjoy this type of work and lifestyle.

Think of it this way: a lot of people growing up like and are good at a sport. And there are literally star athletes at every single high school across the country.

But the amount of commitment and dedication it generally takes to get a full college scholarship in that sport is usually pretty substantial between personal aptitude and need for significant sacrifices to be made along the way (years of practice, being on different travel teams, not doing other extracurriculars).

It's not impossible for late bloomers to be successful but that's not the norm.

 

[WisNeuro]

Would you recommend an MSW as opposed to a Masters in counseling psychology or other Masters in counseling?

Also, maybe it's not evident in my original post but I think I would really enjoy being a professor, doing research, attending conferences, traveling, and all that a PhD offers or opens doors to, it's just that it's so many years and seems to demand so much of one's time/life, that I wanted to be able to change my mind about it in a few years. But I don't think that's a possibility, so I will have to make a choice

Thank you!!

Some of it is based on location. But, in general, the LCSW route is more flexible and opens up more billing options than a masters level licensure. IF you want pure private practice with cash pay, doesn't matter as much. But if you want the options of working in a system and/or access to more billing codes, LCSW is probably what you want to look at.

 

[ccool]

Would you recommend an MSW as opposed to a Masters in counseling psychology or other Masters in counseling?

Try searching this forum with those keywords. That question has been answered a lot on this forum, with really knowledgeable people giving really great, comprehensive responses. The shortest and most resounding answer is MSW.

I’ll add that you might be well served by looking up psychology licensing laws in your state to learn which, if any, masters-level training (education + practice) experiences could lead to a license. If there are any, you could then work backwards to look into the nature of various programs in your state. There may be some of interest to you in themselves and that could set you up to be /more/ competitive for a clinical PhD spot down the road.

Also, maybe it's not evident in my original post but I think I would really enjoy being a professor, doing research, attending conferences, traveling, and all that a PhD offers or opens doors to, it's just that it's so many years and seems to demand so much of one's time/life, that I wanted to be able to change my mind about it in a few years. But I don't think that's a possibility, so I will have to make a choice

Thank you!!

I agree entirely that deciding to pursue a clinical PhD is a major investment. I think it’s great that you know yourself well enough to reflect and be really intentional about your choices and wants/not wants. If and once you get into a PhD program, no one can physically stop you from stopping. Just the same as no one can stop you from pursuing a PhD later if you go the masters + practice route. Both simply have different opportunity costs attached to them, and neither are the only pathways. It’s ultimately up to you to decide what matters.

 

[PsychPhDone]

a PhD is appealing because research, teaching at a college level, publishing, traveling for academic purposes, etc all sound like things I would really enjoy and love

You won't have any sense of this until/unless you get actual research experience though. (Edited to add: you note two semesters of neuroscience research. If this was in the context of a class, it's probably not enough to get into a phd program and not entry exposure to see what professor life is actually like.) Consider getting a research coordinator job for a couple of years. Otherwise if practice/teaching is what sounds appealing, I agree that an msw/LCSW and maybe adjunct teaching could work

 

[iheartbacon]

I think there have been some really helpful comments already, and just would like to add that getting a doctorate in social work is an option too, which would prepare you for clinical work, research, and teaching - and I imagine they may be easier to get into than clinical psychology doctoral programs