Masters VS post-bacc

[Nasem]

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Hello,
This is my first time posting on this forum (I am from the pre-dental forums, who is recently getting 2nd thoughts about going pre-med)

Anyways, Im gonna make this short....
I work as a software engineer, I graduated with a BS in computer science and a minors in math in '04 with a crappy 3.0 GPA. After working in I.T for a while, I decided that its not what I wanted to do for the rest of my life and a career change was a possibility.

So, I applied to my local university and got accepted as a 2nd degree bachelors (bascially a post-bacc student, all my credits are towards my undergrad). Currently I am hacking away at my pre-med / pre-dental (they are the same) requirements which are
General chem 1 and 2 (along with labs)
Biology 1 and 2 (along with labs)
Orgo 1 and 2 (along with labs)
and... thats it (everything else I had taken already in my undergrad 5 years back)

The problem I have is, when I did my undergrad, I took 130 credits and my gpa is 3.0, there is NO WAY in heck I can bring this up, no where close to today's medical school average (3.5-3.6-ish)....however,
I have a few friends who are med students and they are all suggesting that I should get into a masters program and have at least 20 credits, that way, I'll have a brand new GPA toward my master studies.....How does this exactly work ? my old GPA disappers and I get a fresh new GPA from my masters studies ?

Am I underestanding this right or is there something Im missing...

 

[tdd340]

The value of getting the masters degree is debatable, yes by getting a masters you will get a new GPA category for schools to look at. But it is well known that there is substantial grade inflation in graduate programs and your grad GPA will be looked at with a grain of salt. Do well and it will be expected, do poorly and it will be seen as extremely poor. On top of this the majority of admissions decisions are based upon UG GPA regardless. You are better off trying to get your UG GPA up to around a 3.2-3.3 range and doing very well on the MCAT. Only persue the masters if it really interests you and you can see yourself using it irrespective of med school admissions.

 

[armybound]

the UGrad GPA is more important to adcomms, so keep hacking away at the UGrad GPA. you may not be able to get it up to 3.5-3.6, but putting in a year or two of 3.8+ GPA classword will show them you can handle classes and you're not the same student who had a 3.0. Those pre-req classes you're taking are important for them to see your potential success as a medical student, so acing them is a strong boost for your application.

Your old GPA will never disappear, the UGrad GPA will always be important.

 

[adamMD]

Hello,
This is my first time posting on this forum (I am from the pre-dental forums, who is recently getting 2nd thoughts about going pre-med)

Anyways, Im gonna make this short....
I work as a software engineer, I graduated with a BS in computer science and a minors in math in '04 with a crappy 3.0 GPA. After working in I.T for a while, I decided that its not what I wanted to do for the rest of my life and a career change was a possibility.

So, I applied to my local university and got accepted as a 2nd degree bachelors (bascially a post-bacc student, all my credits are towards my undergrad). Currently I am hacking away at my pre-med / pre-dental (they are the same) requirements which are
General chem 1 and 2 (along with labs)
Biology 1 and 2 (along with labs)
Orgo 1 and 2 (along with labs)
and... thats it (everything else I had taken already in my undergrad 5 years back)

The problem I have is, when I did my undergrad, I took 130 credits and my gpa is 3.0, there is NO WAY in heck I can bring this up, no where close to today's medical school average (3.5-3.6-ish)....however,
I have a few friends who are med students and they are all suggesting that I should get into a masters program and have at least 20 credits, that way, I'll have a brand new GPA toward my master studies.....How does this exactly work ? my old GPA disappers and I get a fresh new GPA from my masters studies ?

Am I underestanding this right or is there something Im missing...

Lol. When I graduated with my bachelors I had a 3.41 gpa. I just finished a 30 hour masters and took an additional 15 hours post-bacc (all A's). My gpa now says 3.43. My point is, no, they will not recalculate your gpa. If you want to learn more about biology/medicine then join a masters program. Seeing that you were a computer science major, this may help you a lot. I would advise against doing it for gpa because you'll just be disappointed.

 

[armybound]

But it is well known that there is substantial grade inflation in graduate programs and your grad GPA will be looked at with a grain of salt.

why do people say there's grade inflation? how have my grades been inflated?

 

[Nasem]

alright, now Im getting confused lol
Are you saying that a masters program will bring down my over all GPA?

How does the GPA categories exactly work... Say I go ahead and do the master studies, all my grades from my undergrand and masters get lumped together into 1 category ? and then I'll have a 2nd category strickly for the master's work ?

 

[armybound]

alright, now Im getting confused lol
Are you saying that a masters program will bring down my over all GPA?

How does the GPA categories exactly work... Say I go ahead and do the master studies, all my grades from my undergrand and masters get lumped together into 1 category ? and then I'll have a 2nd category strickly for the master's work ?

your masters will not affect your overall GPA. the GPA they're going to look at is your undergrad GPA. there will be a separate category for your masters GPA, which they tend to not really look at or care about.

if you do a post-bac, it will affect your undergrad/overall GPA. this will help you. doing the masters will show recent coursework, but it won't affect your undergrad GPA.

 

[Nasem]

I see what your saying...
So bascially, a masters is a bad idea... even if its a masters geared directly for medical students ? Here in wayne state, they have a masters program (masters of medical sciences), which basically is made up of 34 credit hrs of classes you'll be dealing with in med school....

Even to get accepted to the program, you should have taken the MCAT already, its designed for people who wanna strengthen thier pre-med application.... But according to you guys, I should just stick to what I am currently doing and continue to push forward with my post-bacc classes.

There is another problem I am running into lol, I am running out of federal loans for my post-bacc (something about a maximum of 46,000 a person can burrow for thier undergrad studies alone, if you want more, you need to be enrolled into a masters program or pHD), currently I am at 35,000 and I can only burrow up to 2 full semesters and then Im all out haha (this is totally starting to suck for me)

Another thing, I work a full time job (40-45 hrs per week), and I am forced to take my pre-reqs at a part-time basis.... is this bad ?

 

[armybound]

Nothing wrong with taking your pre-reqs as a part time student.

Those types of masters programs you described are sometimes called Special Masters Programs, or SMPs, and are in a different category than regular masters programs. Success in those programs leads to a high acceptance rate with medical schools due to the rigor of the program.

There's nothing wrong with a regular masters, other than it will not really help your GPA. If your GPA is low, it's best to either do a SMP or a post-bac to improve it.

 

[munnabhai]

why do people say there's grade inflation? how have my grades been inflated?

The thing with graduate programs is that they have high persentage A's. Many people wrongly see this as suggesting that the classes are easy. Graudate classes are full of the people who were at the top of their undergraduate classes. Since those students are smart they all get the A's they deserve. That is seen as grade inflation.

Also some people see that graduate students take usually take 2-3 classes per semester and automatically consider that it would be impossible to not get straight A's with a 6-9 hour courseload. But these people haven't been in a lab and seen how hard those grad students have to work.

Anyways, I think that med schools should be more accepting of grad students.

Note: I am not a bitter grad student.

 

[sendwich]

since your UG gpa is at a 3.0, you're giong to have to take a lot of classse (ie 4 yrs) to bring that up to 3.5 (assuming you get 4.0 during your 2nd bachelors). Try looking to doing an SMP, if you're sure about pursuing medschool. with your 3.0 you're going to pass most school's screens (not all, most, i think?). you want to do more than just take irrelevant boring classes. it's worked for me. just some suggestions..

 

[TheRealMD]

The thing with graduate programs is that they have high persentage A's. Many people wrongly see this as suggesting that the classes are easy. Graudate classes are full of the people who were at the top of their undergraduate classes. Since those students are smart they all get the A's they deserve. That is seen as grade inflation.

Also some people see that graduate students take usually take 2-3 classes per semester and automatically consider that it would be impossible to not get straight A's with a 6-9 hour courseload. But these people haven't been in a lab and seen how hard those grad students have to work.

Anyways, I think that med schools should be more accepting of grad students.

Note: I am not a bitter grad student.

Don't most grad students end up being TAs for lower-level undergrad students? I didn't think grad school would be the walk in the park some are claiming to be.

 

[armybound]

Don't most grad students end up being TAs for lower-level undergrad students? I didn't think grad school would be the walk in the park some are claiming to be.

most work 15+ hours as a TA and another 15+ hours doing research.

the courses we take are also a lot more time intensive than most undergrad classes, with completely different demands.

people love to say graduate grades are inflated, but if they ever actually went to graduate school they'd see what a crock it is.

part of my curriculum also involves taking undergraduate classes.. with undergraduates.. how are my grades inflated if I take the exact same course with the exact same exams for the same grade? if my grades are inflated, so are everyone else's.

 

[HreComesTheSun]

most work 15+ hours as a TA and another 15+ hours doing research.

65-70 hours/week for me (incl weekends)

people love to say graduate grades are inflated, but if they ever actually went to graduate school they'd see what a crock it is.

👍

 

[munnabhai]

most work 15+ hours as a TA and another 15+ hours doing research.

the courses we take are also a lot more time intensive than most undergrad classes, with completely different demands.

people love to say graduate grades are inflated, but if they ever actually went to graduate school they'd see what a crock it is.

part of my curriculum also involves taking undergraduate classes.. with undergraduates.. how are my grades inflated if I take the exact same course with the exact same exams for the same grade? if my grades are inflated, so are everyone else's.

I have generally tended to like the graduate courses I have taken because:
a) they pertain to specifics in the subject of my interest
b) the teachers arent out there to weed you out and are more willing to help you as long as you have a genuine interest in mastering the material (rather than the premed goal of doing well enough to get an A / LOR)
c) the classmates are friendly and more willing to help others out since grading isnt based on rank in class

 

[Pablo Honey]

Hello,
This is my first time posting on this forum (I am from the pre-dental forums, who is recently getting 2nd thoughts about going pre-med)

Anyways, Im gonna make this short....
I work as a software engineer, I graduated with a BS in computer science and a minors in math in '04 with a crappy 3.0 GPA. After working in I.T for a while, I decided that its not what I wanted to do for the rest of my life and a career change was a possibility.

So, I applied to my local university and got accepted as a 2nd degree bachelors (bascially a post-bacc student, all my credits are towards my undergrad). Currently I am hacking away at my pre-med / pre-dental (they are the same) requirements which are
General chem 1 and 2 (along with labs)
Biology 1 and 2 (along with labs)
Orgo 1 and 2 (along with labs)
and... thats it (everything else I had taken already in my undergrad 5 years back)

The problem I have is, when I did my undergrad, I took 130 credits and my gpa is 3.0, there is NO WAY in heck I can bring this up, no where close to today's medical school average (3.5-3.6-ish)....however,
I have a few friends who are med students and they are all suggesting that I should get into a masters program and have at least 20 credits, that way, I'll have a brand new GPA toward my master studies.....How does this exactly work ? my old GPA disappers and I get a fresh new GPA from my masters studies ?

Am I underestanding this right or is there something Im missing...

I actually just finished an special masters program (smp) at barry university. To be honest, it was an incredible learning experience...i learned more in the 1.5years there than i did in 4.5 at jhu.

In terms of using an smp to apply, there are pros and cons. The pro is that grad gpa is calculated seperately so you can really show a trend of improvement and maturity. Also, certain smps have direct connection with a med school...for example the programs at drexel, upenn, and georgetown. Do well in any of those programs and you really should get in.

One of the cons is that some universities show strong preference to undergrad performance. Others...e.g. u of miami will accept strong performance in a masters program if you screwed up in undergrad. Also, in the case of Barry, while the school is good, they arent very good about the details of the application process. For example...they dont have a letter writing committee so you have to submit 3-4 letters to every school for the secondaries.

All in all, the choice is up to you. I really think that if you rock the mcats and show SIGNIFICANT improvement in either a masters or a traditional post bac, you should be ok.

hope that helps

 

[Nasem]

you guys are being pretty positive about the whole deal and I appreciate that...

But I just, don't see my self getting in with a 3.0 (even If I raise it up to 3.2 or 3.3 in the next 2 years or so).... I don't see that as something that would give me an edge....

The only reason I posted here was to get some suggestions as to what I should do....

My plan for now is, to contiune to finish my pre-med courses (as a post-bacc student), when Im done with those, I'll take the MCAT, (if its between 25-30) I'll just look for an SMP program, if I get higher than 30, I'll apply to med schools and SMPs programs (incase I don't get into any med school).

 

[armybound]

the thing with good post-bac performance, even if it only raises your GPA to a 3.2 or so, is that you'll have a recent record of very strong performance. that upward trend is very important.

 

[Phil Anthropist]

Moving to the Postbaccalaureate forum. You should be able to get a lot of help here. 🙂

 

[KifsterDDS]

I've never been on an admissions committee, but I think we can all agree that admissions committees are looking for a full courseload and good grades, first and foremost. Whether they take place as part of a "post-bac" or a masters program probably doesn't make much difference to them. Again, I've never been on an admissions committee, so take what I say with a grain of salt. You can, of course, simply ask your school's pre-med advisor or, better yet, some deans of admissions at a few medical schools.

That addresses the issue of admissions. There is another consideration to make. What is better for YOU, as a human being? I'd say a masters degree is a better way to go. What do you get when you finish an post-bac program? A transcript. A masters program offers you an actual degree. It's a very tractable, easily identified academic accomplishment.

I completed college (several moons ago) with a horrendously bad GPA--far worse than yours (but from a top-notch university). Wanting to go to dental school, I decided to go the masters degree route. With good grades and incredible luck, I got in to dental school. So, as you can see, I have some experience with your situation. Let me offer you these two additional bits of advice:

1. If you're interested in medicine, don't use dentistry as a fall back position. Although you have to know a hell of a lot of medicine to be a good dentist, you are nonetheless practicing dentistry rather than medicine. As such, you will not be satisfied. Not even as an oral surgeon (which involves more medicine than any other dental specialty).

2. Dental schools are well aware that they receive many applications from people who were initially interested in medicine and view dentistry as a fall back. They do not look favorably on such applicants. Your chances of getting into dental school will be hurt badly if they think you are one of them. There was a time when dental schools had trouble filling their classes and would take anyone who was qualified. That is no longer the case. Getting into dental school nowadays is vastly more competitive than it was even ten years ago. They have plenty of qualified applicants from which to fill their classes, and will gladly pass you by if they think you're not truly interested in dentistry. If you're interested in dentistry, they'll expect you to have some experience in the profession. If you apply without it, they'll be on to you. Moreover, they may very well be able to find out that you've applied to medical school simultaneously or in previous years. Never underestimate anyone's access to information.

If you're interested in medicine, pursue it until you get it.

 

[Nasem]

I totally appreciate what you said KifsterDDS,
I started off as a pre-dent,
My sister is a DDS and she gives me alot of encouragement....which probebly explains why I wanted to switch careers into dental medicine..... However..

The problem started when I shadowed our family MD, one of the nicest and funniest guys you can ever meet..... I spend some time with him last april and .... I just felt different. I felt like internal medicine is just more of my thing than dentistry is...

Don't get me wrong, I love the art of dentistry, its simply an art to make people feel AND look good.... But internal medicine hit me like the way your first crush hits you in 6th grade lol....