master's

[gracietiger]

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I am interested in behavior, shelter medicine, and animal welfare. Ideally, I would love to incorporate all three areas into my career. I love policy and had intended to pursue law (before I realized sitting behind a desk all day would be the death of me) but I'd still like to be a veterinarian who does advocacy/policy work to promote animal welfare causes.

I feel like a master's may assist me in gaining more credibility. I would be interested in a master's degree in animal behavior, or a degree in animal science with an emphasis on animal welfare or perhaps even a master's in something like bioethics or public policy.

However, I am really not interested in research so a master's, for me, would only serve the purpose of giving me more knowledge and credibility to be applied, but would not set me up to pursue academia, teaching or research. I am also not interested in putting off vet school another two years. I also do not need a master's degree in order to better my grades.

I do not imagine going for a master's after finishing vet school (I am planning to live in an area that is nowhere near a university with ag/animal sci programs). I also will not pay for a master's (which rules out the Tufts MAPP program for anyone who may suggest that - which, would, in fact, be completely up my alley if it weren't another year's worth of vet school tuition).

So I am wondering if anyone has any thoughts on how much a master's can help professionally? Especially when it is not intended to advance a person in doing research or pursuing academia? Thanks!

 

[moosenanny]

However, I am really not interested in research so a master's, for me, would only serve the purpose of giving me more knowledge and credibility to be applied, but would not set me up to pursue academia, teaching or research. I am also not interested in putting off vet school another two years. I also do not need a master's degree in order to better my grades.

I do not imagine going for a master's after finishing vet school (I am planning to live in an area that is nowhere near a university with ag/animal sci programs). I also will not pay for a master's (which rules out the Tufts MAPP program for anyone who may suggest that - which, would, in fact, be completely up my alley if it weren't another year's worth of vet school tuition).

I in no way mean to point this out to be rude, but you seem to have a few contradictions in your post (I bolded them for you). You don't want to delay school to get a master's, but you also seem unwilling to get one after vet school too. I suppose that only leaves concurrent programs, but you poo-poo this as well (at least I'm assuming that's what the Tuft's MAPP program is). There are plenty of other schools with different concurrent master's programs to look into, but a lot of them seemed to be focused on Public Health.

It almost sounds like you are unwilling to make the compromises needed to get a master's. Perhaps you aren't as interested as you think? My general advice would be to pursue vet school, and once you are obtaining your veterinary education, you can better decide what exactly you want to do. If you become even more set on getting a master's, then you will make the necessary sacrifices (location-wise, time-wise, and money-wise). Or, you may find that you fall in love with an entirely different facet of veterinary medicine altogether . . .

Again, I don't mean to be harsh or rude, but I'm just trying to better understand where you're coming from, and hopefully allow you to reflect on this further 🙂

 

[Maschka1]

If you become even more set on getting a master's, then you will make the necessary sacrifices (location-wise, time-wise, and money-wise). Or, you may find that you fall in love with an entirely different facet of veterinary medicine altogether . . .

I agree with Moosenanny. I am currently a non-traditional student. I have sacrificed a lot to be able to go back to school and hope that I have a shoot in the dark of being accepted to vet school. At which point I will leave my husband, dogs, and home, Rack up considerable debt that could financially ruin my family, all so that I can do what I want to do. When you really want something, you can either make it work or whine that you never got to do what you wanted. In the end only you know how much you will sacrifice to get where you want to be.

As far as a masters program, I am not sure I understand what you mean by you arent willing to pay for it. That is kinda a given if you want to go to school. Some programs offer TA'ships that are payed and may help subsidize your costs. There are programs that do not require research. they are generally 1 year and are often refereed to as plan-B. at the end you are given a comprehensive written and oral test by a committee. these programs are generally used to strengthen a pre-professional application. If you are looking for credentials you would most likely need to do a 2 year program with research so you are actually published in your field. I doubt, however, that a masters would get you further then a DVM. The field of animal welfare law is not a huge industry, I would assume if you can get an edge to get your foot in the door, then you should be fine. I would assume a DVM would give you more of an edge then a masters in animal behavior. but I am certainly not an expert.

If it were me, I think I would apply for vet school, but have a plan-B to go to grad school if I didnt get in. then If I did get in and found I needed additional credentials to do what I wanted to do, at least the hard part would be taken care of. At that point I could decide what risk and sacrifices to my life plan I was willing to make to achieve what I wanted. Unfortunatly life doesnt always cooperate with our expectations.

 

[nyanko]

Okay, unlike my classmate, I am being harsh here.

Honestly, from every post I have ever seen from you on here it seems like you just think the entire world should bend to your own demands and wants. That isn't how things work, jeez.

If you want a Masters and aren't interested in research or teaching, you're going to be paying for it, and that's that. The ways you can get a Masters funded are (a) being a research assistant or (b) being a teaching assistant. At the graduate level, any "free money" (fellowships, which are still usually research based but just funded from a source other than directly from your PI or department) goes to Ph.D. students generally, because they will generate more for the field in the long run than a terminal Masters student. A non-thesis based (or professional) Masters is considered to be primarily in your own interest rather than the interests of the field as a whole, and it's treated that way as far as funding.

And since you've ruled out every single possible way you could get a Masters, I don't see exactly what you're even asking. You don't want to do it before, during or after vet school? So uh....

Apply to vet school, go to vet school, and do some CE or get some kind of certificate in behavior or whatever. You're going to have to be flexible to do what you want, nobody is just going to hand it to you. 🙄

 

[moosenanny]

Okay, unlike my classmate, I am being harsh here.

I think I just got a bit intimidated by some of the responses in MaorBern's "New to the Field" thread. There's always a slight risk in posting the first response 🙄

 

[gracietiger]

From what I understand, not every veterinary student also obtains a master's (or other advanced degree), so I am not really sure how my considering, and questioning, a master's suggests I am not committed to veterinary school or medicine. I have made a huge number of sacrifices in order to pursue this field, so the fact that I am not 100% committed to a master's shouldn't suggest to anyone that I am not willing to work hard or that I believe that things should be handed to me.

It is because of a family illness that I will not be pursuing any additional schooling after veterinary school. I will be moving back to my hometown. Plus, I imagine that after officially receiving the bills in the mail for my school debt, I will feel like a master's isn't even really a choice anymore. I have the time now, while my husband is also in school, which is why I stated that I would not consider pursuing an additional degree after veterinary school. Is this really that crazy?

Clearly, I don't know a whole lot about a graduate degree, largely because I have never been interested in research or teaching, as I pointed out. However, if I had reason to believe that spending two years researching and teaching would pay off nicely for my future career pursuits, I am very willing to work hard to earn a master's. If the master's doesn't matter much, then obviously it's not for me. I know many people who obtain master's don't do so because of an interest in academia, so again, I am confused as to how my possible interest in obtaining a master's - but a lack of interest in researching or teaching - suggests that I think the world should bend backwards for me while I sit on the beach with an umbrella in my drink. I am simply not interested in teaching or researching as a career, and see no fault in that. I never criticized anyone who does have these interests, and in fact applaud those who do. It's just not for me, but I shouldn't be made to feel guilty for considering an advanced degree simply because my interests lie elsewhere.

I also don't know what the huge fuss is about when I said that I don't want to pay for a master's degree. From what I do know, and amongst my many friends who do have or are obtaining master's, not one of them pays a dime. None of them are getting rich, but there are numerous programs that don't put a student into debt. Like I said, if this entails doing research or TA'ing for a couple of years, I am totally okay with that if this enhances my credibility and knowledge for my future pursuits. I also stated that I was not interested in a costly master's program because I assumed that many people would suggest the MAPP program considering the interests that I listed (which is a very, very expensive program). I was not implying that things should just be handed freely to me in exchange for no work or contribution.

It seems that my post has personally offended people on this forum, and I have seen what direction that can take, so I just wanted to clarify a few points that caused confusion from my last point, but I don't want this to erupt into personal attacks. I am confused and uncertain about what I should be doing in this time to maximize the opportunities for me to not only practice medicine, but also become engaged in animal welfare issues that I am passionate about. Because I am older, I feel a lot of concern that I will be behind my colleagues, and also a lot of pressure to find ways to make myself unique from my younger counterparts. This is why I was inquiring about a master's. It was not meant to offend.

 

[LMMS]

GT - As someone who worked their tail off to obtain their master's simply for the love of the subject matter, I would like to advise that you no longer consider obtaining one yourself. Regardless of the issues in your life, it is clear that a graduate program is not for you - at least right now. For one, you freely admit that you're not 100% committed... Certainly not a good way to start off. Also, by saying that you think obtaining a master's might 'pay off nicely' you appear to be seeking a graduate education simply for a trampoline into something else... Not a welcome point of view, as you have seen.

I've seen lots of wannabe vets head off for a master's after being turned down for vet school the first time because they felt it would enhance their applications and vault them into acceptance. I've even had the 'good' fortune of teaching some of these folks. A majority of these students didn't want to be there (or at least acted in such a way that I was led to believe this was the case) because they wanted to be in vet school. Hence, they were somewhat aloof, didn't have great interest in the subject matter, did a great many things half assed, and really didn't enjoy what they were doing. Grad school should be one of the greatest times in your life academically because you're studying what you want and what you want only. Thus, if you head off for a degree simply because you feel you 'need' one, you will never be happy. And no matter how much you put towards it, you will never feel rewarded by it - especially if you don't gain from it what you hoped.

If you're interested in veterinary medicine and and animal welfare, there are several ways you can get involved and learn more without having to enter a graduate program. If you live near a community college, take a cheap class... Go to your local shelter and volunteer your time... Go to your local vet clinic and ask if you can observe a couple nights a week... Take up a collection for homeless animals in your area... Become a pet foster parent... Sky's the limit!!

One last thing for you - I'm older too. I received my master's 11 years ago and I've been on this little quest for nearly nine years now. Applied to vet school three times (2003, 2006, 2009) and am currently working on round four. As you can see, the grass isn't always greener...

 

[sumstorm]

I think it is the contradictions that are troubling people. Things like 'I have the time now, while my husband is also in school,' and ' I am also not interested in putting off vet school another two years.' Think about it this way, if someone said "It's just not for me, but I shouldn't be made to feel guilty for considering an advanced degree simply because my interests lie elsewhere." about attending vet school (ie they are going to vet school but only because they think it will give them a leg up to do something else.) how would you respond? I know 90% of the folks on here would feel that an individual using that as a stepping stone or feather in a cap rather than a pursuit of a profession would feel like a spot was being taken from someone who does want a profession using the degree.

I believe the AVMA is currently considering a specialty in animal welfare. If you aren't in vet school yet, it may likely be around by the time you are out. If not, there is a program at U Fl in forensic vet med that can be taken mostly at a distance (one of my classmates is doing it.) However, you would end up paying for it. There aren't many programs in behavior that have enough funding to provide full tuition and stipend for PhD's, so I wouldn't expect much in that route (and a master's in behavior doesn't do you much more good than a master's in philosophy.) A few of my classmates are doing distance programs to obtain Master's in public health, epidemiology, and business. all are paying.

I also don't think anyone questioned your commitment to vet medicine, folks questioned your commitment to obtaining a Masters. big difference.

In reality, I don't think a Master's will help you signficantly if your primary interest is shelter medicine (which is what I am assuming the DVM is for based on the first post.) Shelter medicine is another field where the willingness to work long hours for lower pay with financial limitations in treatment while gaining as much experience as possible, and being able to assist with things like fundraising, political actions, networking, and program development will serve you better than an extra sheepskin.

As for being unique, hopefully since you are older you have already lived part of your life and are already unique career wise. Thus you will graduate with a previous career and a DVM....I am not sure how you will be behind your colleagues? I honestly believe the best way you can set yourself apart is by spending time with vets in a variety of places doing shelter medicine and learning when to say when on treatment, how to be the most cost effective vet possible, understand non-profit finances (not in depth, but on a funds in funds out level), and learn about as many different programs as possible. Help local organizations raise funds and apply for grants; a vet that comes in with the ability to obtain grants might be able to help generate the funds that pays her salary which can be a huge bonus in the shelter world. Just a suggestion, but working with organizations that are good at fund raising, even if they aren't related to vet med or animal welfare can be huge. I know several private shelters with directors that are amazing because they understand fund generation, even if they know nothing about animals....and consequently they have generated enough money to cover their salary plus improve the program they work for...and generally that is because folks who love animals often aren't the ones thinking about numbers.

 

[gracietiger]

LMMS and sumstorm, thank you very much for your thoughts. I completely understand what you are saying and how my post may have been perceived. My husband received a master's in a field that he has a great deal of passion for, and worked very, very hard for it, so please know that it is not something that I believe should just be handed out for my own benefit, and I apologize to anyone who is under the impression that I take a master's lightly.

At the same time, sumstorm, you asked how I would feel if someone posted that he/she was attending veterinary school purely as a stepping stone for other interests, and I think it is fair for me to point out that my post did not state that I had already decided to take what could be someone else's spot in a master's program purely for my selfish pursuits; rather, I am still in the very initial questioning stage where I am just seeking some professional perspective and information. Fortunately, I received just that from your post, so thank you.


What I think has been lost in my attempt to defend myself is that I did not mean to imply - though I can see how it has been implied - that I am not enthusiastic about any component of pursuing a master's degree. I was attempting to explain in my first post that I am not interested in gaining a master's degree in order to pursue a research or academic career. It seems to me that many of the veterinarians who also have master's have the degree in a field that made them better equipped to remain in academia and do research. Again, this is just from personal internet research - this does not represent an adequate sample - but it is the reason I pointed out that my career goals do not lie in research, which somehow came out as implying that I believe I should just sit back and be handed a degree.

However, I do not hate doing research and don't believe that I couldn't be very interested in a thesis project. I do have two publications from my undergrad research, and worked in a laboratory for the last two years, just recently leaving to move east. I would gladly partake in research and/or teaching if the end result of the master's degree allowed me to be better-equipped to pursue some of my personal professional goals. However, as I pointed out, there are several reasons that I do not want to pursue a master's, such as my age and the additional time. If it is the case that a master's would really do not much (which it sounds like it wouldn't) to assist me in pursuing my interests, then I don't think it is what I want to focus on. If it is the case that it could be the difference between me (someday as a veterinarian) and another veterinarian who also has a master's in animal science with an emphasis on animal welfare being selected to serve on a board, or to receive funds to start a non-profit, or to write a newspaper column (just examples), then I would find that it would pay off. While it is true that I am not 100% committed to going for a master's purely for the love of knowledge (maybe five years ago) or the research, I would be 100% committed to a master's if I felt confidently that it would be an asset to me in my career. I do not think that this is an offensive position; some people obtain master's degrees because of a passion for the material and others in order to get a higher job position or better pay. There are various reasons for pursuing a degree like a master's and my motivations lie somewhere on a broad spectrum.


With so many people now specializing and earning advanced degrees, I tend to worry that a general practitioner will not have high enough credentials in the public's eye to address animal welfare issues. Note that I said the public's eye - this does not represent my personal opinion. With that said, some of you have pointed out many reasons why a veterinary degree alone opens so many doors. Sumstorm, I do hope that the animal welfare specialty emerges. It seems that many other countries are placing more of an emphasis on animal welfare as its own field of study and I believe the US is right behind.

 

[david594]

I am interested in behavior, shelter medicine, and animal welfare. Ideally, I would love to incorporate all three areas into my career.

What would your ideal career be? And I mean that in a functional day to day, it pays the bills, sort of way. Answering that would have the greatest affect on the value of your degree.

Advance degree would be more valuable for behavior if your working in an academic setting, which you stated your not interested in.

While shelter medicine there isn't much benefit to a masters(except maybe an MPH).

I think animal welfare compared to veterinary medicine I think is something on par with comparing psychology to human medicine.

 

[heylodeb]

maybe I missed something (and I truly ask this because I'm confused):

If I understand correctly, you are simply asking if a master's in one of the mentioned fields would help you gain more respect and credibility in your field, right? (you're looking for advancement, not necessarily more education..)

BUT If you aren't willling to put off vet school for now, you don't want to work on your master's during vet school, and you don't want to spend the money after vet school - why does it matter if it will help you or not?

 

[Packen]

If you are looking to specialize after attaining a DVM, then you will have to put in more time than a Masters degree would require, plus complete the necessary research required for that specific College (i.e. American College of Veterinary Surgeons).

After undergrad I attained a MS in a field where I wanted to build a career. Only after completing the program did I realize that to truly realize my dream and reach my goals, I need to be a veterinarian.

BTW, I did not pursue a MS program that required teaching, but I did have to complete a boat load of research for my thesis and I did pay for most of it out of pocket.

 

[gracietiger]

david, that's a good question. I could imagine myself as a shelter vet or as a private practice vet, potentially as a behavior specialist or a general practitioner who has some additional training in behavior. That is what I would like to do day to day. However, I would also love to be a consultant or serve on an advisory board for an animal welfare organization or write a newspaper column...

heylodeb, that is exactly what I am asking. Yes, looking for advancement, not necessarily additional education. Look, I love education, I love being a student, I am not some lazy person looking to half-ass how to get from point A to point B. I would remain a student forever if it weren't due to age and family circumstances, but as of now, I do not favor putting off my number one goal, vet school, much longer purely for the sake of additional education. However, if the master's would matter in my future advancement, then I am pro-master's and would be willing to do that now. However, I do not believe it is possible to do simultaneously while in vet school, and it is true that I am not willing to go for a master's after vet school. I would rather do an internship and/or residency at that point. Or just make money.


I spend a lot of time reading profiles of veterinarians who inspire me and whose footsteps I could imagine following. Many of the veterinarians working for or on the boards of organizations that I think are pretty awesome have master's, particularly with an emphasis on animal welfare or behavior. So, of course, naturally I ask myself, did the master's give them the extra ammo that they needed in order to do what it is they are doing? Did they sit in the same shoes I am right now and decide to obtain their master's degrees in order to advance themselves? Would these vets be where they are without their master's degrees?

This is what I am getting at.

 

[nyanko]

The value in the Masters degree is not the degree itself, but what you learn, what you produce, and the contacts you make while you're doing it.

What people are saying is that you can learn, produce and make contacts without doing a Masters degree. Once you get into those sorts of positions, the letters behind your name (aside from a DVM, or BVSc, or VMD, or whatever veterinary degree) rarely matter anymore, and it's all on what you have accomplished. It isn't like an entry level job after a bachelors where they say "Must have a BS in this field." A DVM will open a lot of doors for you.

I understand what you're asking, no matter how much you think I don't, and I don't really believe that a Masters is appropriate for you. What would be better for you is actually talking to those people you admire, or even researching what they've done with themselves a little better than just seeing that they have a MS or MPVM or whatever after their name. Ask them those questions, not us or yourself.

edit: I know you said you don't want to work in academia or whatever, but here's an example of someone in shelter med. That's a good question...why not just try for a residency in shelter med? Note that her MPVM was obtained while in the shelter residency program...

 

[moosenanny]

but as of now, I do not favor putting off my number one goal, vet school, much longer purely for the sake of additional education. However, if the master's would matter in my future advancement, then I am pro-master's and would be willing to do that now. However, I do not believe it is possible to do simultaneously while in vet school, and it is true that I am not willing to go for a master's after vet school. I would rather do an internship and/or residency at that point. Or just make money.

I totally understand not wanting to put off vet school (I myself am going fresh out of undergrad), and you seem set against getting a Master's after vet school. But remember, that will be at least four years from now, and a lot can change between now and then (your family situation, your outlook on the profession, and your personal goals). Why not table the Master's idea for a while, and see how you feel after a couple of years in vet school. You will have much more contact with vets of all kinds once you are pursuing your DVM degree who can give you advice about reaching your vocational goals. You may find a more specific path you want to pursue, and then discover how valuable a Master's would be after all. If it is valuable enough to merit making sacrifices, you'll do so gladly. Or, you may realize you can accomplish all of your goals without it . . .

 

[gracietiger]

nyanko, you are so much more clear and helpful when you aren't trying to put me down 🙂 But, truly, your post was spot-on; I am looking way too much into the letters.

moosenanny, I completely agree with everything you said. You are 100% right - I have a lot of time and things can change, and if I am truly passionate about furthering my knowledge in a particular arena later life, the opportunity to pursue higher education isn't going anywhere.

I grew up with parents who don't consider a veterinary education to be high quality and who believe a person should sit in school for the rest of their lives and rake in the degrees in hopes of increasing a salary. I was required to write 10-year plans beginning at a young age, with the details of my education and career etched out. Though I try to let go of that, sometimes it's hard to shake the pressure that I am not doing enough or not prepared enough. While the fact that I shouldn't be pursuing a master's right now is visible to all of you, it isn't easily clear to me. I struggle to differentiate between what I am "expected" to do and what I actually want to do, especially after years of being told that the ship has already sailed for me (my parents gave up on me when I decided to uproot and move to Africa... didn't go over so well). Fortunately, thanks to the feedback here, I have come to see what all of you are saying and agree that the master's is not for me, not right now. I can do a better job of just letting go of things right now and figuring out where life takes me next. But for now, it's not into the arms of a master's program. Though the answers to my questions may have seemed obvious, this post did truly help me.

 

[that redhead]

Edited: You addressed the other posters, so my comment isn't really productive anymore 🙂

 

[moosenanny]

Glad I could help 🙂 You seem at peace with your decision to wait and see, which is great!

 

[sumstorm]

I grew up with parents who don't consider a veterinary education to be high quality and who believe a person should sit in school for the rest of their lives and rake in the degrees in hopes of increasing a salary.

LOL. try the opposite path; parents who think any education, including HS, is a sham excuse to be lazy and can only be considered if one works full time for the duration of their studies.

It is intelligent to recognize that in different fields and at different times degrees carry different weight. It wasn't that long ago (in my lifetime to be exact) that having a BA/BS in computer anything was a great source of contempt; real programmers and IT guys got there by experience and experimentation. I would contend that shelter med/welfare/behavior are areas that are undergoing changes now; where the compensation rarely covers the cost for the additional education (and may actually make you less employable....ie a vet behaviorist, as pointed out on another thread, will have a hard time using their specialty in a private practice that relies on GP work.) Later on, you can always pursue options such as the U Fl forensics program that is aimed at vets and shelter workers needing to deal with criminal cases, or other Master's programs in non-profit. If you aren't determined to do research...you can likely get away with a distance or program where you only have to travel for seminars program while practicing (and/or rack up CE's)

 

[sumstorm]

very relevant to the conversation at hand:
http://www.acaw.org/

just crossed my desk this morning.

 

[gracietiger]

sumstorm, thank you for sharing that! A specialty in animal welfare would be awesome!
That is exactly what I'm looking for. Nearly every single point listed in the Role Delineation Document is something that I would be interested in studying. This is what I had in mind when I began considering a master's, but it doesn't exist as a master's. But this is something I would be every excited to pursue, and I think many others would be too. So I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it happens!

 

[LMMS]

Hi GT - Just thought I would check in to see how things are going and it would seem that you've done a great job in clarifying what you were seeking and what you hoped to gain. Yay!

That all being said, I think that you're heading down a good path for yourself. I'm also quite jealous that you went to Africa!!

I did think of one thing though - you originally said that you considered law. Given that you are obviously passionate about welfare, have you ever considered going into animal welfare law? There are lots of groups seeking legal council and I'm willing to bet that there are vets out there looking for folks who not only know animals and have a passion for welfare, but also know the law inside and out. Maybe not what you're looking for, but thought I would toss it out there for you. Good luck!!