Mayo vs Kessler

[Meddienyc]

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Hi All,

I'm trying to figure out my rank list and am really debating which to rank higher, Mayo vs Kessler. I might be interested in going into sports/spine or possibly pain. Can anyone give any insight to these programs regarding these specialties? Or even just about the programs themselves?

Thanks!

 

[rehab_sports_dr]

When I was a medical student working on my rank list, these were the two programs I had the hardest time differentiating. I am far enough removed that my impressions as a medical student are now out of date, but I can tell you how I worked through which program to rank higher.

Because I had a hard time letting my gut decide between Kessler and Mayo, I created a spreadsheet where I listed all the criteria by which I would judge a program, and then weighted each of those factors, and then ranked each of the programs.

By doing so, I came up with a number. My ultimate rank list did not match my numerical rankings. However, there were several cases where the number came out differently that I thought they would, and made me reconsider my rank order.

Specifically, for me, Kessler was not #1 before I created the spreadsheet, but came out a clear #1 on my rank order. This caused me to re-evaluate why my subjective impression of Kessler was not higher, and I realized it had nothing to do with things that affected the quality of the residency program.

Things I realized:
1. The interviews were not as warm and fuzzy as some other interviews. I realized that this was the flip-side of the fact that everyone actually read my interview packet and had specific questions they wanted to address. So what I initially perceived as a negative was in reality a positive- they cared enough to actually do a real assessment of me as a candidate.
2. I placed too much weight on what they served me for lunch.

Ultimately, I matched at Kessler, and was extremely happy with the decision. All that said, Mayo is a great place too, and for many people will be a better fit.

Hope that helps, at least on some level.

 

[RUOkie]

6 on one hand, 1/2 dozen in the other.

Both programs are excellent, and will allow you to do whatever you want. Interview at them both, and make a decision based upon feel. You will find virtually no difference in the end between any of the "top 5" programs. There are trade offs for sure, but your biomechanical knowledge will be the same, and you can go on to do anything PM&R allows.

 

[DistantMets]

One of the things you may want to consider, if this is something you're interested in, is how much diagnostic ultrasound exposure you get. I saw Dr. Stitic from Kessler at a course last year so I guess he's getting into it. Not sure about Foye, Malanga, Braddom etc. I'm not sure how much time you really spend with the latter two there anymore though. (I rotated there in '05). On the other hand, Mayo has Jay Smith, who is one of the only physiatrists that's been seriously doing MSK US long enough to be an expert. As someone who's getting into US, I'm jealous of anyone that gets to work with him. (I didn't go up to Mayo for interviews so I have no other opinion other than their good reputation). Good luck!

 

[rehab_sports_dr]

Both programs are good for MSK ultrasound, although I would consider Mayo probably the gold standard in the field right now. There are other attendings at Mayo who use US regularly, including Jon Finoff, who is also a star in sports medicine education. They also have a dedicated curriculum that they recently published in the Blue Journal, which we are using as a model for our US curriculum at Pitt.

At Kessler, they also have strong MSK US within their VA rotations, particularly with Rex Ma and Gautam Malhotra. The VA rotations at the Kessler system are particularly strong, with many excellent teachers (Rex Ma, Gautam Malhotra, Susan Garstang, Chae Im, etc)

 

[drusso]

Go where the sushi is best...

 

[Ludicolo]

Agree w/ my colleagues above – both programs are excellent, especially with regards to MSK medicine. My opinions: MSK ultrasound training will undoubtedly be better at Mayo because of Jay Smith (see his recent PASSOR Legacy Award lecture in the purple journal), but probably sufficient at Kessler. EMG training is more structured and more extensive at Mayo, unless the curriculum has drastically changed at Kessler since when I was in the OP’s shoes. Mayo of course has a certain “way” of doing things, which doesn’t always translate well to “real world” practice. Same could be said about practicing at a VA hospital, but at least you will experience different practice models as you rotate through the UMDNJ-NJMS system. Graduates from either program have gone on to great fellowships (pain or otherwise) and success beyond.

If you are moving from the East Coast to Mayo or from the Midwest to Kessler, you will most certainly undergo a bit of initial culture shock. You’ll need a car at both programs. Cost of living much cheaper in Rochester, but you have to wear a suit. Night life/dining out is generally better in NJ/NY, unless you like walleye, Spam, and cheese curds.

 

[DOctorJay]

drusso,

was Sushi Nishiki open when you were here, pretty respectable sushi for Rochester - much better than Sushi Itto

 

[drusso]

drusso,

was Sushi Nishiki open when you were here, pretty respectable sushi for Rochester - much better than Sushi Itto

No. If we wanted Sushi, we had to wrap Spam in sea-weed with a dab of sriracha sauce...and we liked it.

Which reminds me: If you ever want to get a good reaction out of the Cafeteria workers at SMH, ask if they have any sriracha sauce for the tuna melt. Good times, good times. 😎

 

[Meddienyc]

If you are moving from the East Coast to Mayo or from the Midwest to Kessler, you will most certainly undergo a bit of initial culture shock. You’ll need a car at both programs. Cost of living much cheaper in Rochester, but you have to wear a suit. Night life/dining out is generally better in NJ/NY, unless you like walleye, Spam, and cheese curds.

Is it a bad sign if I don't even know what walleye is?


Thanks for the advice everyone!

 

[PMR 4 MSK]

Is it a bad sign if I don't even know what walleye is?


Thanks for the advice everyone!

Mmmmm, walleye!

Wonderful-tasting fish, caught in the cold waters of the north. Mostly sluggish when you catch them - they don't put up much fight. They go nuts for leaches on a hook.

Northern pike swim in the same waters and are much more fun to catch, but IMHO taste terrible. Small-mouth bass usually nearby put up a helluva fight for their size and are excellent to eat as well.

 

[RUOkie]

Mmmmm, walleye!

Wonderful-tasting fish, caught in the cold waters of the north. Mostly sluggish when you catch them - they don't put up much fight. They go nuts for leaches on a hook.

Northern pike swim in the same waters and are much more fun to catch, but IMHO taste terrible. Small-mouth bass usually nearby put up a helluva fight for their size and are excellent to eat as well.

Some Michigan transplant illegally stocked one of our big lakes in OK with walleye, now they are in all of our deep lakes. They do taste good!

 

[Ludicolo]

Mmmmm, walleye!

They do taste good!

I respectfully disagree. Walleye sushi sucks.

 

[RUOkie]

Cook it Fool!

(pan saute in brown butter--- yum)😀

 

[Taus]

I didn't interview at Mayo last year, so I can't really say much about it except that everything I have heard is fantastic. I'll admit that I'm jealous of the MSK US experience they have there. It's certainly second to none. If it wasn't in Rochester MN I really think Mayo would be at or near the top of everyone's rank list.

Kessler is absolutely a solid top-tier program, but one aspect stuck out to me last year as lacking to some degree - no dedicated EMG rotations. They do have an excellent formal didactic lecture series, but the hands-on EMG experience is scattered throughout the various outpt MSK rotations. I have no clue if this translates to any deficiencies in ability, but felt that I'd like to be able dedicate my studying to only EMG's when I'm first learning them.

In terms of fellowships....both programs would help you become extremely competitive for any PM&R-based MSK/Sports/Spine/Pain program. If you are interested in AGCME-accred Anesthesia-based Pain programs....Mayo has a much better track record in this area (though who knows if many Kessler grads have even sought after these, so it may be a moot point)

Agree w/ my colleagues above – both programs are excellent, especially with regards to MSK medicine. My opinions: MSK ultrasound training will undoubtedly be better at Mayo because of Jay Smith (see his recent PASSOR Legacy Award lecture in the purple journal), but probably sufficient at Kessler. EMG training is more structured and more extensive at Mayo, unless the curriculum has drastically changed at Kessler since when I was in the OP's shoes. Mayo of course has a certain "way" of doing things, which doesn't always translate well to "real world" practice. Same could be said about practicing at a VA hospital, but at least you will experience different practice models as you rotate through the UMDNJ-NJMS system. Graduates from either program have gone on to great fellowships (pain or otherwise) and success beyond.

If you are moving from the East Coast to Mayo or from the Midwest to Kessler, you will most certainly undergo a bit of initial culture shock. You'll need a car at both programs. Cost of living much cheaper in Rochester, but you have to wear a suit. Night life/dining out is generally better in NJ/NY, unless you like walleye, Spam, and cheese curds.

 

[specepic]

I have no informed opinion about UMDNJ

Mayo:

pros:
-EMG
-MSK U/S
-pain rotations with anesthesia which gives you meaningful LOR if you do well
-Most outpatient rotations excellent (esp sports, spine, MSK)
-name of course
-don't need a car if you live close enough to walk/bike (would still want to have a car in general for groceries, etc.)
-cheeeaaap rent/mortgage

Cons:
-Peds light
-inpatient fair


For those wanting to do outpatient, execllent choice. With the retrospectoscope in place would go elsewhere for inpt/peds

PM me if you want to chat via phone re: Mayo in more detail

 

[chauffeur]

if training is equal... take into consideration the name. patients, orthopods and pcps will be very impressed by the mayo name. this is unfortunate as it doesn't necessarily mean you are a good doctor. on the otherhand, manhattan and northern nj is more fun than rochester.

 

[rehab_sports_dr]

The Kessler name will also open a lot of doors. They are certainly well known nationally within PMR, and they are well known in the northeast by other specialists. They also have a very strong alumni network, which can help with placement, particularly with fellowships.

 

[specepic]

The Kessler name will also open a lot of doors. They are certainly well known nationally within PMR, and they are well known in the northeast by other specialists. They also have a very strong alumni network, which can help with placement, particularly with fellowships.

In the rehab world Kessler is a big name of course. When looking at non-PM&R fellowships (Anes pain) or jobs, the Mayo name probably carries more water. I have no informed opinion which institution has better training. Of course, in the end, the individual's merits, how hard they work, publish, etc. matters quite a bit for fellowships, jobs.