Md, do, or carib md route?

[anon-y-mouse]

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Anon ... do you think it could have anything to do with volume either? I mean, technically there are only 28ish DO schools and something around 120 MD schools, all with 'comparable' class sizes. Seeing a DO in an individual program or happening to run into one DO at one program you are interviewing at, during the exact day you are interviewing when there are only 28 DO schools, is slim. I'm not going to sit here and deny there is any bias in the ACGME world (which to be honest, doesn't bother me), but there is usually more to the story than just face value. DOs are well represented in almost all fields in the ACGME world, and this does not even take into consideration the entire set of AOA, DO only residencies.

Okay, let's do it the other way around:
http://www.pcom.edu/Student_Life/Student_Affairs_Main/match_2009_phl.html
I see one person at NYU, and a couple at Cleveland Clinic (which isn't really ultra desired in contrast to the other schools I previously mentioned, though it does show that DO's go there). Apart from that, I don't see ANY of the hospitals I mentioned, let alone ANYONE matching to the Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania, which is in the same city. What about any of the New York Presbyterian affiliated schools? JHH? I remember reading on here that people considered the Philadelphia Osteopathic school the "second best" in Philadelphia, but when match is concerned, I guarantee that Temple, Jefferson, and Drexel did better.

And Touro California? No matches to UCSF or UCLA medical center (Fresno and Harbor don't count).

New York Osteopathic- radiology at Yale, psych and PM&R at NYU, but with a class size of nearly 300, nothing else?! No Cornell, Columbia, or Sinai given that they are probably just a few blocks away??

Texas Osteopathic -- no one at UT Southwestern for Internal Medicine (which is a top 10 internal medicine program, and in the same state!)

You can go through the lists yourself here: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=7635532&postcount=6

Contrast to NYMC, which people generally consider a 'safety' MD school (still a great school):

http://www.nymc.edu/Medical/match/2009/results.htm

Just for internal medicine: UCSF, BIDMC, Cornell, Brown, Vanderbilt, UCLA. MGH represented in other specialties.

DO's are certainly well represented in every specialty, I'm not arguing that at all, but the LCME advantage is a reality. A good friend of mine is at New Jersey Osteopathic, and she told me that program directors have flat out told her "we don't interview osteopathic candidates", which is something I've also heard as well from program directors. I'm also not arguing that the candidates themselves are somehow inferior, and in fact when a blanket policy decision like that is made, there is obviously no regard to whether the applicant is inferior... they're just not given a chance to strut, which is sad. I mean, it happens in the MD world as well, where students without AOA are not interviewed at some residency programs (e.g. derm) because there are just so many applicants and so few spots that AOA status has to be a big factor. Nevertheless, you can work hard at MD and still have a shot at AOA.

I mean, you can say "this doesn't bother me, I would never want to end up at a place like the Brigham" but that's kind of irrelevant if you're not going to be given a chance to set foot in it. Regardless of how much people try to minimize the bias, it is a reality. If you are willing to accept that, more power to you for sure.

 

[anon-y-mouse]

UMich is one of the few schools that's highly ranked in both research and primary care.

I'm sorry, I meant mid-tier as in those who get interviewed by the top X would choose to do their residency there as opposed to UMich. The hospital was fantastic though, you're right, and their research is amazing. If I ended up there, I wouldn't be displeased.

But, let's take even that as an example, and I'm going to use IM since there are a lot of residents per year and that can give a good picture:

http://www.med.umich.edu/intmed/resident/about/current.htm

I see ZERO people from the Michigan Osteopathic school, in all the years, which is strange, you would think that they would want to take their own. However, there are a bunch of Wayne State, Wright State, etc. that are definitely considered low-tier MD schools.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Okay, let's do it the other way around:
http://www.pcom.edu/Student_Life/Student_Affairs_Main/match_2009_phl.html
I see one person at NYU, and a couple at Cleveland Clinic (which isn't really ultra desired in contrast to the other schools I previously mentioned, though it does show that DO's go there). Apart from that, I don't see ANY of the hospitals I mentioned, let alone ANYONE matching to the Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania, which is in the same city. What about any of the New York Presbyterian affiliated schools? JHH? I remember reading on here that people considered the Philadelphia Osteopathic school the "second best" in Philadelphia, but when match is concerned, I guarantee that Temple, Jefferson, and Drexel did better.

And Touro California? No matches to UCSF or UCLA medical center (Fresno and Harbor don't count).

New York Osteopathic- radiology at Yale, psych and PM&R at NYU, but with a class size of nearly 300, nothing else?! No Cornell, Columbia, or Sinai given that they are probably just a few blocks away??

Texas Osteopathic -- no one at UT Southwestern for Internal Medicine (which is a top 10 internal medicine program, and in the same state!)

You can go through the lists yourself here: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=7635532&postcount=6

Contrast to NYMC, which people generally consider a 'safety' MD school (still a great school):

http://www.nymc.edu/Medical/match/2009/results.htm

Just for internal medicine: UCSF, BIDMC, Cornell, Brown, Vanderbilt, UCLA. MGH represented in other specialties.

DO's are certainly well represented in every specialty, I'm not arguing that at all, but the LCME advantage is a reality. A good friend of mine is at New Jersey Osteopathic, and she told me that program directors have flat out told her "we don't interview osteopathic candidates", which is something I've also heard as well from program directors. I'm also not arguing that the candidates themselves are somehow inferior, and in fact when a blanket policy decision like that is made, there is obviously no regard to whether the applicant is inferior... they're just not given a chance to strut, which is sad. I mean, it happens in the MD world as well, where students without AOA are not interviewed at some residency programs (e.g. derm) because there are just so many applicants and so few spots that AOA status has to be a big factor. Nevertheless, you can work hard at MD and still have a shot at AOA.

I mean, you can say "this doesn't bother me, I would never want to end up at a place like the Brigham" but that's kind of irrelevant if you're not going to be given a chance to set foot in it. Regardless of how much people try to minimize the bias, it is a reality. If you are willing to accept that, more power to you for sure.

1. I still think your sample sizes are very small and specific. What is to say people from PCOM (as an example) wanted to, or even tried to match at any of the programs you are stating? And again, one matchlist of one school, at several specific programs??? I'm not overtly shocked.

2. The CA issue ... Touro CA doesn't have the best rep up in the DO bias bay, and the UCs are not DO friendly. It's a reality. There are still tons of good programs in CA and it's also difficult to analyze because so many people want to get back into Cali that it is again skewed. I still know for a fact there is a DO residency in USC's EM program right now.

3. It's unfortunate that some places say 'we won't interview DOs,' but again ... I'm not surprised and I don't care for several reasons: 1. This is the exception, and not the norm 2. VSAS is going to change the audition rotation game around, and depending on where DOs land on the issue, it's going to be complete different (could be bad), 3. There isn't a single AOA program that will interview an MD student ... so it would be pretty hypocritical for me to sit here and bitch about an LCME program not interviewing DO students. Plus, like you said, there is even bias with MD programs in the ACGME world to some extent, so it seems like some sort of tier is not specific to just DOs applying to ACGME programs.

4. NYMC gets a ton of people from CA because of how impossible it is to get into CA schools. I went to a UC and know tons of people who go there now. These are smart people who worked their assess off to get back to CA ... I'm not surprised to see a lot of UCLA, UCSF, etc, on their lists.

5. I really don't think you are being bias or absurd, and if it came off that way ... I didn't mean it to. You are making pretty fair rationalizations based on your experience on the interview trail, and it would be foolish of me as a pre-medical student who hasn't taken one med school course to refute you. I do see some issues with your sample sizes, etc, but again ... I'm not going to sit here and deny that if a DO works hard, eats their vegetables, and prays, they can match integrated plastics at Harvard. What I am saying (and kind of what Instate said via his interview experiences) is that DOs have made some pretty impressive strides in the ACGME world, especially considering the bias that is out there. I think the people that are kicking ass and matching gas at Yale above TONS of other MD applicants (like you said at NYCOM) are paving the way and knocking down some of this bias, but to deny it does not exist in some small form, or that MD students are going to match better into some areas and some hospitals would be silly, and again, I do not have an issue with that reality.

 

[anon-y-mouse]

I can only comment on behalf of DOs.

You are attributing this to attending a non-LCME school. It's possible that plays a role, but there's a multitude of other reasons I'd examine first. First and foremost, DO students are in the minority, as such I wouldn't expect to see too many of them. I was the only DO student at ~10 of my interviews and at the remaining interviews there were 1 or 2 max others with me. I'm also quicker to attribute this supposed lack of DO interviews at big name institutions to academic performance. DOs perform more poorly on the USMLE as a whole. Lastly, the most important variable is where do most DOs apply and in what specialties? I graduated in the top of my class and did above average on the USMLE. I also chose a relatively noncompetitive specialty and chose not to apply to places like Mayo or Yale because I would not attend there if I matched. I did have classmates and know of people this year who interviewed at Yale, Mayo, JHH, cleveland clinic (also can be seen on NYCOMs previous matchlists). So obviously these places are interviewing DOs. I didn't know anyone from my class who had any interest or even applied to any of the california residencies. The bottom line is these are competitive places. Many people want to blame the initials while most of the time it's the applicant who isn't academically qualified.

Interesting point, do you have any theories as to why DO's perform more poorly on the USMLE? My MD school and so many others say things like "we don't teach to the boards" (and it's so true, ugh), and I definitely know that my own prep for boards didn't have much to do with what my school taught me.

I disagree about the influence of LCME status, I think it plays a more important role. In every class, there will be outliers who kill the boards... whether it's at StateU or some osteopathic school. I'm able to see more co-interview candidates from Podunk State or say, NYMC, than any osteopathic school. A JHH IM class may have a resident from the University of Kansas, but I'm not sure if they'd have any from Kansas Osteopathic, even given a bell curve, there might be some number of high scoring people in both schools.

 

[anon-y-mouse]

1. "What is to say people from PCOM wanted to match at Penn"? Are you joking? It is one of the best hospitals in the nation, there are a lot of people around the world who would want to match there. I went through the ENTIRE list of that school, hundreds of people, and found just what I stated. If you lived in Philly, you could do research at HUP, do electives there, contact mentors, etc. etc.

2. There are hospitals I'd rank above USC... but that goes to show, you're right, there are tons of good programs throughout the nation. I can still list 15 of the best hospitals in the nation that aren't training DO's in, say, internal medicine.

3. Not interviewing DO's may be the exception, which is a fantastic thing for my osteopathic bretheren, but if you consider that the places that *are* the exception, it's unfortunately the cream of the cream of the crop.

4. I'm not sure how VSAS is changing. I certainly didn't use it, although I did have login access. NYMC may get a lot of Californians, but I'm sure so do other osteopathic schools??? Aren't there 2 in California? The same person who works his ass off equally at NYMC or NY Osteo will be received differently by UCSF just based on where he went to school... if you want that UCSF/SFGH spot, working your ass off may only work if you're at the right place.

5. It's a good thing that DO students are making inroads at ACGME programs, and if I become a PD one day, I'll definitely look beyond degrees.

I'm really not trying to be mean, but my point is that some options are closed the moment you set foot in an osteopathic college. No such doors are closed from, say, Meharry (although those doors aren't exactly wide open either) but working one's ass off will still be able to kick that door open.

It's clear that you're a pretty determined, focused individual and I applaud your resilience 👍 That's the kind of thing that it takes to get through med school, seriously.

 

[JaggerPlate]

1. "What is to say people from PCOM wanted to match at Penn"? Are you joking? It is one of the best hospitals in the nation, there are a lot of people around the world who would want to match there. I went through the ENTIRE list of that school, hundreds of people, and found just what I stated. If you lived in Philly, you could do research at HUP, do electives there, contact mentors, etc. etc.

2. There are hospitals I'd rank above USC... but that goes to show, you're right, there are tons of good programs throughout the nation. I can still list 15 of the best hospitals in the nation that aren't training DO's in, say, internal medicine.

3. Not interviewing DO's may be the exception, which is a fantastic thing for my osteopathic bretheren, but if you consider that the places that *are* the exception, it's unfortunately the cream of the cream of the crop.

4. I'm not sure how VSAS is changing. I certainly didn't use it, although I did have login access. NYMC may get a lot of Californians, but I'm sure so do other osteopathic schools??? Aren't there 2 in California? The same person who works his ass off equally at NYMC or NY Osteo will be received differently by UCSF just based on where he went to school... if you want that UCSF/SFGH spot, working your ass off may only work if you're at the right place.

5. It's a good thing that DO students are making inroads at ACGME programs, and if I become a PD one day, I'll definitely look beyond degrees.

I'm really not trying to be mean, but my point is that some options are closed the moment you set foot in an osteopathic college. No such doors are closed from, say, Meharry (although those doors aren't exactly wide open either) but working one's ass off will still be able to kick that door open.

It's clear that you're a pretty determined, focused individual and I applaud your resilience 👍 That's the kind of thing that it takes to get through med school, seriously.

Fair post (hahah and I don't think you are being 'mean' at all). I think we are dancing around similar points here. Bias exists, especially in some of the bigger academic names, DOs are still doing pretty well and forging some paths, and work hard, apply yourself, but also be aware of the current state of things!

 

[JaggerPlate]

OH and based on where I went to undergrad ... there are a LOT of things in this world I would rank above USC 😉

 

[Laryngophed]

OH and based on where I went to undergrad ... there are a LOT of things in this world I would rank above USC 😉

😱

 

[WNT Signaling]

5. It's a good thing that DO students are making inroads at ACGME programs, and if I become a PD one day, I'll definitely look beyond degrees.

I totally agree. Even though I am starting at an allopathic school next year, I have had/met some amazing osteopathic physicians.

On an unrelated notes, while I was looking at Michigan's anesthesiology residency program, I noticed this: "USMLE Part 1 & 2 (if completed). We have established a minimum score of >200 on any attempt of the exam or COMLEX Part 1 & 2 (if completed) with a minimum score of >600 on any attempt. FYI, a 600 on COMLEX is at the 90th percentile, while a 200 on the USMLE is at the 20th percentile

http://anes.med.umich.edu/main/programs/residency/selection.html
http://www.bigbri.net/?p=97
http://www.bigbri.net/?p=95

 

[J1515]

Interesting point, do you have any theories as to why DO's perform more poorly on the USMLE?

I do have a theory but I'm going to keep it to myself because the last time I mentioned it I got slammed with a bunch of excuses from pissed off pre-osteo students lol. I'll just mention DO schools teach the same exact classes as MD schools (including biochem, genetics, biostats). The DO excuse of "our school doesn't teach to the USMLE" doesn't cut it in my eyes. I'll let you decode the rest.

I disagree about the influence of LCME status, I think it plays a more important role. In every class, there will be outliers who kill the boards... whether it's at StateU or some osteopathic school. I'm able to see more co-interview candidates from Podunk State or say, NYMC, than any osteopathic school. A JHH IM class may have a resident from the University of Kansas, but I'm not sure if they'd have any from Kansas Osteopathic, even given a bell curve, there might be some number of high scoring people in both schools.

The JHH IM class did have a NYCOMer though last year.
You are making the same mistake as people who say vaccines cause autism because they and all of their friends know a child who became symptomatic after their 1 year vaccination. You are looking at a small sample size with tunnel vision. You are talking about a limited number of residency programs on a limited number of interview days that you and your friends are exposed to, in addition to the fact that there are much fewer DO students overall. I actually didn't come across a single NYMC applicant on any of my interviews. Obviously I can't say these places don't interview NYMC students. Every year NYCOM sends people to JHH, Yale, Einstein, Cleveland Clinic, Mayo, etc... I know around 10 people max in my class who were gunning for those types of places. Furthermore, I know a handful of people in my class who got <220 on the USMLE. The remaining people I knew were more interested in grabbing a spot based on location. As I said, I had an equal or better academic record than some of the gunners whom I know got interviews at the big names and I had no desire to match at any of these places... Which brings up the big question of how many DOs actually apply to these places overall? What if only 1 person applied for Cleveland Clinic IM and got it? What if 150 people applied and only 1 got it? Unless the program releases the statistics we will never know. As an MS4, I'd think you know that what you and your friends see on the interview trail is not a large enough sample size to draw an accurate conclusion.

I should also add there were one or two places in the northeast that gave us a choice of interview dates reserved only for DOs - ie - DOs only interviewed on these dates, MDs interviewed on the other dates. I highly doubt any of the so-called "top tier residencies" do this but it just goes to show you there are way too many variables to base a conclusion on what you personally see with your own two eyes in this case.

 

[J1515]

1. "What is to say people from PCOM wanted to match at Penn"? Are you joking? It is one of the best hospitals in the nation, there are a lot of people around the world who would want to match there.

I wouldn't want to match there. I also had no desire to spend my residency at Columbia, Cornell, or Mt. Sinai coming from the NY area. Not everyone is gunning for the big names. Different people have different priorities.

We have established a minimum score of >200 on any attempt of the exam or COMLEX Part 1 & 2 (if completed) with a minimum score of >600 on any attempt.[/B] FYI, a 600 on COMLEX is at the 90th percentile, while a 200 on the USMLE is at the 20th percentile

Yup. Several places I applied to had similar requirements. I have no problem with this, seeing as how most people who attended an osteo school had lower MCATs and the COMLEX wastes questions (easy points) on OMM.