Md/mba?

[bowdoinguy]

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I?m just wondering if anyone out there is in an MD/MBA program and/or understands the value of this degree. I?m an economics major, and my training in econ. has lead me to believe that I should have some sence of the business world before I become a physician in private practice. I?ve been accepted at my state school (EVMS) and had interviews at two private schools with combined degree programs (Georgetown and Wake Forest). Finding information on MD/MBA is dificult because it seems to be a new phenomenon among medical schools and doctors. It would cost me much much more for a combined degree in both time and money over going to my state school, but the value of the MBA may benefit me in the long run. 😕

 

[mightymo]

I too am interested in learning more about the advantages of an MD/MBA degree from those who have gone through (or are going through) the process. I have been accepted to some schools with excellent business programs but it's hard to make the extra time and financial committment.

 

[KyleLuman]

It sounds like you are probably only interested in programs on the East Coast, but ...

UC Irvine is the only school in CA that really has a joint program. They only take about 5 or 6 from each class, but it only takes one additional year and you do not have to take any additional standardized tests, etc.

Here is the URL for the program.

http://www.ucihs.uci.edu/com/mdmba/

UC Davis says they have a joint program, but when you read about it, you still have to take the GMAT, apply separately to the school and it takes 2 years. In other words, there is really no help from the med school.

It is unfortunate that more schools do not have the real joing programs. UCLA med should join up with the UCLA Anderson business school, etc.

 

[kreno]

hey bodoinguy - i'm also an econ major and getting interested in the MD/MBA programs. My question is... for an MBA, don't you usually need like 2-3 years of work experience? Like, no one goes to MBA school right after undergrad. Therefore, is there an exception for MD/MBA matriculants?

 

[Downhill Racer]

Hey all new here. I think that the work experience requirement for business schools varies by the school. While almost all the top tier bschools have matriculants with 2-6+ years of full-time work experience, I recall that during the dot-com days all bschools were encouraging students to apply directly from college, again the stats (GPA/GMAT) of these individuals was often higher than the average accepted student. I would contact specific schools to gauge your candidacy and in my opinion acceptance into medical school would often obviate the need to meet any work experience requirements. Frankly, a combined degree requires a customized program and i'd want to ensure that the program has had experience in preparing graduates of both programs so that you could get the most out of your degrees.

Check out the following link for more info http://www.businessweek.com/bschools/index.html

Good luck!

 

[kreno]

wow thanks for the info. actually i just contacted yale about their combined MD/MBA program, and turns out that they seem pretty liberal in using other experiences as substitutes... but they were vague.

So what about the GMAT? is that a hard test? when is it offered? i did well on the MCAT, but certainly not 'cuz i'm smart - i'm just good at science. so i'm worried about a test like the gmat which is more general

 

[Downhill Racer]

The GMAT is not as long as the MCAT. Basically tests verbal and math. The math is highschool level (remember the SAT?). The verbal tests reading comprehension, data sufficiency (kinda like logic) and sentence correction (grammar/syntax) and there is a separate writing sample. Practice sample problems for the GMAT and similar to the MCAT you will ace the test. In my opinion a 680 on the GMAT = 30 MCAT and most people shoot for 700+ on the GMAT. The exam is also electronic-- you mark your answer on the computer and type essays, so you will need to get accustomed to this format and the fact that you cannot go back and review/skip any questions. The test is offered at special testing centers at all times except the first week of any given month. I dont think i'm explaining the exam well so take a look at the official link for the GMAT, listed below.

http://www.mba.com/mba/default.htm

 

[wfu2005]

The value of the MD/MBA is most useful if you think that hospital administration might be the thing for you. A friend of mine is in the program at Wake, and it's really not the type of program to do just to get some business experience. I think he took a year before school and took classes, then he spent last summer taking classes, and I think he spends one or two rotations doing stuff with them. If you have an interest in hospital/insurance administration, or another less clinical career, then it's probably a good idea. Doing it just to have better experience to run your practice will probably just be a waste, especially if you go to an expensive school like Wake....

 

[Kluver Bucy]

Originally posted by Downhill Racer
In my opinion a 680 on the GMAT = 30 MCAT and most people shoot for 700+ on the GMAT.

That's about right. And B-school GPAs are lower. If you can get into a mediocre med school, you can probably present the grades and GMATs of the average Harvard Business School matriculant. And eventually you can attain impressive work experience as well - even as a resident. So you may as well wait until after you're done with your MD before you apply to B-school and then go to a top tier one.

 

[standoc]

Hello,

Does anyone know how much an MBA costs to get? I just recently got into Michigan, and I know they have a top 10 business school...does anyone have any insight into their program?

Standoc

 

[AznTrojan]

do people study for the gmat?? i mean.. from what i've gathered.. it seems like a glorified SAT.. i'm kinda thinking of applying for the MD/MBA program.. but between class and step 1.. idk if i wanna be studying for the gmat..

so basically asking.. can ya wing it and do well.. 650+?

 

[Gilbert]

I have recently completed my MBA so maybe I can offer some insight. First of all, I would recommend for those of you who are considering an MBA just to enhance your private practice managerial capabilities to reconsider. Most MBA programs are geared solely toward the management of corporations rather than entrepreneurial or small business affairs. For example, a corporate finance/investments class may spend half of a semester doing a top down comprehensive equity valuation of a firm or discussing the signaling effects associated with acquisitions/stock repurchases?..things that will obviously be of little value to you in a private practice setting. Don?t get me wrong, certainly things that are covered within any MBA program will be of some use to physicians, but many of these fundamental principles can be self taught for a few hundred dollars earmarked for the purchase of a few fundamental textbooks on-line. I would recommend picking up a fundamentals of corporate finance text. This will cover the basics of time value of money, cost of capital, buy vs. lease decisions, market efficiency theory, etc?..essential stuff that will aid you in the financial management of your practice as well as aid you in your private investments as well. I would also recommend a basic accounting text, one that stresses small business accounting and taxation. Lastly, I would recommend a book titled something along the lines of ?small business for dummies? (a subject that I am rather weak in myself). Such a book will cover things such as quarterly tax/social securing filings, basic HR management (ie. what can I ask an individual on an interview?), the constructs & taxation of a personal corporation, etc.

As for those of you who many want to get into healthcare management/administration I would highly recommend either an MBA or MHA (master of health administration), the latter probably being the most beneficial for physicians for obvious reasons.

Concerning the GMAT, it basically has two parts: quantitative section and verbal section. The quantitative section is comprised of many types of questions and most of them can be rather trying given the amount of time you are allotted for the section. Most of the quantitative questions are not like those on the SAT math section where you simply solve a rather simple math problem with the information provided (ie. simplify a radical or perform a trigonometry calculation). The GMAT contains question formats that are more daunting and that require significant critical reasoning skills. As for the verbal section?.piece of cake in my opinion.

The GMAT takes four hours to take and costs about $170, so if you take it you probably should at least take a little time to familiarize yourself with the test. I would at least recommend taking a practice test and thumbing through a Kaplan preparatory manual. MBA programs are more competitive nowadays due to the economy. Most ranked programs (ie. top 30) want significant work experience (4-6 years) with indication of increased leadership roles/responsibilities over that period, a decent gpa (3.1-3.5) which obviously medical students will have no trouble with, and at least a 650+ on the GMAT with a 70 percentile or better on both major sections of the test with the quantitative section being the most valued by admission committees.

As for myself, I attended an MBA program at a major research university in the midwest (the program is certainly respectable but not a ranked program). In all I spent about 8-10 hours studying and taking practice GMAT tests and I scored a 600. A score that would guarantee rejection to the school now (two years later).

Just my two cents, take it for what its worth.

 

[kreno]

thank you for the advice. But is this the case even at top schools like uofm, northwestern, and Yale? I mean, if it's so not applicable.. why would schools like Yale offer the joint degree - certianly they're notn doing it for the tuition! thanks!

 

[emdoc21]

I completed the MBA part of my MD/MBA degree at UMDNJ-Robert Wood Johnson last year. We have the opportunity for a business concentration on Health Policy and Administration. The program offered courses at both the Rutgers Business School and the UMDNJ School of Public Health.
It is a one year program (depending on how many courses you take at a time) and the 4 or 5 students selected each year receive full scholarship from UMDNJ.

I agree with the previous posters that an MBA is definitely not essential for running your own practice...although it would certainly be helpful, it's probably not worth the time and expense.
However, there are many, many different avenues you can pursue in addition to or instead of clinical medicine for which an MBA would be very useful. I, myself, am most intrigued by the advantages a different perspective from the MBA can offer at the upper echelons of medical leadership (professional organizations, government, industry).

 

[standoc]

hey emdoc21,

Could you tell us more about the different avenues that an MBA would open up to you? I always hear ambiguously about these areas but I'm not sure excactly what they are , and so I'm not sure if i can visualize myself doing that

thanks,
standoc

 

[surg]

MD (or DO)/MBA's can be found in all aspects of medicine, from straight private practice, to taking on the administrative responsibilities of their group practice, to running health systems, to working in large corporations (e.g. pharma and med. device companies), to consulting (both health and otherwise).

Please do a search for MBA and you will find multiple threads on these topics. The summary of my previous comments are this:
-An MBA is helpful if you know why you want to do it.
-If you have to ask why you should do it, you don't need it yet.
-You can get an MBA at any time in life.
-I wouldn't get one in the context of a combined program unless you are getting it from a top MBA program (top 15-20 by Businessweek or USNWR at least) as you will certainly qualify to get in to one of these if you do halfway decent in medical school, given your undergraduate GPA, and a willingness to prep for the GMAT.
-If you really want a health tailored management type degree, keep in mind that there are a number of degrees available (e.g. MHA, MHSA, MMM, MPH with emphasis in management) as well as certificates (Harvard has one I know, as well as a few others, check out the American College of Physician Executives for others)

Finally, for those interested in finding out about career paths, read: MD/MBA: Physicians on the new frontier of medical management. Arthur Lazarus, Editor; ACPE is the publisher.
ISBN:092467461X

This book will give you a reasonable look at the options (slightly dated as it is a 1998 book, but still good).

 

[emdoc21]

Surg,

I would disagree with you on one point.
Although I agree getting an MBA from a top 15 business school is essential if you plan on leaving medicine completely and switching careers to full-time consulting, investment banking, non-health care administration, etc, I don't agree that that holds true to those who will continue on as practicing clinicians.
As a practicing clinician who may be involved with leadership, administration, policy, consulting, entrepreneurship, etc. on the side, simply the fact that you have an MBA rather than where it's from is enough. They care much more about what you've done, rather than where you've gone to school. I doubt there is much of a different in the skills you are taught at different "ranked" business schools, and perhaps the most important part of an MD/MBA is simply learning to see things from the business perspective. The advantages of a top-ranked business school for an MD/MBA are probably mostly networking, which really just applies if you plan on being involved more with non-medical business opportunities.
I had the opportunity to go to the top-ranked business schools or to Rutgers Business School, which is a solid program but certainly not in the same league as Harvard, Wharton, Fuqua, etc. Sure, if all things were equal, I would have gone to the top b-school. But, they usually aren't, and definitely weren't in my case. Rutgers let me double up on courses to get the degree in one year (rather than two), offered a full scholarship (compared to ~ $70,000 in tuition at a top school), and allowed me to continue living near the important people in my life and do maintain close ties with the medical school (rather than uprooting myself to go to a top school).
So, if you want to continue as a practicing clinician (perhaps only part-time), I'd go with whatever situation makes the most sense for you, and wouldn't let the business school's reputation have much of an impact in your decision.
If you plan on using the MBA to switch careers, then you definitely need to go to a top business school, as you simply will not be recruited for many of the top business jobs graduating from a middle-tier business school.

 

[surg]

I agree with you that every situation is different.
Definitely you can get value out of non-top 20 MBA school. However, to really maximize that value, you have to know why you are doing it. MBA degree value is in some part tied to who you get to interact with at those schools (not just a networking thing, but also in case discussions in class). If you are just there for the technical knowledge (e.g. how to do read a balance sheet, how to calculate an NPV), I'd advocate skipping the MBA altogether or getting the cheapest, local one you can find. However, if you aren't sure what you are going to use it for (often the case with the combined degree students), I'd advise them to wait, but if they won't wait, I'd say go for the degree that opens the most doors, and that's a top 20 MBA. You can only get 1 MBA in general, so if you find that you want to switch careers later, you may regret not shooting "higher."

EMDoc, this should not be taken as an attack on your choices, or on Rutgers. With the scholarship and your local ties (and Rutgers strong ties to Pharma) you made the best choice for you. However, in giving generic advice, I tend to tell people to wait as long as possible and shoot as high as is feasible. It won't hurt them and will give them maximum options later.

 

[jeannepop]

I got my MBA (not from a B-school) and now I'm taking pre-reqs for Med School. I got a 3.8 GPA, while my friend barely got by with a 3.0 from a B-school. With little experience, my friend got several offers thru her B-School's Career placement program in $80-$100k range with bonus, while I struggled to get an offer (my school isn't as connected with the major F500 companies.) If you're going to do the MBA, you may want to really consider a B-School. On the East Coast, there are a lot of Executive MBA programs that allow professionals to go to B-School (e.g. Columbia or NYU) in less time and part-time/weekends. Getting an MD/MBA can be really useful if your looking to quickly become a partner in medical practice, not just hospital administration.

 

[nero]

Some schools will sub the pre clinical years for your business experience.........also, like mentioned this field is great if you want to be in hospital admin (especially since they are looking more for MD/MBA rather than the MPH/MBA of previous years).......you can head an HMO, pharmaceutical compnay president or CEO......plenty of stuff, you can practice as well, just not full time if you expect to use your MD and your MBA (for purposes other than your private practice).......like menionted you don't need an MBA for private practice............the quick description i got for this was, somebody who is into money making, being in charge and being an overall hot shot...........

nero

 

[emdoc21]

Nero,

I've never heard of a medical school giving credit for the preclinical years for business school training. At my school, we received a few credits for overlap courses such as epidemiology and biostatistics and a little 4th year elective credit. But I cannot imagine that the LCME would allow any school to sub the preclinical years for business school training, as business school absolutely does not cover anatomy, physiology, path, pharm, etc, and does not prepare you for the wards. There's no way a medical school offering a degree to a student without taking such courses would be able to maintain their accreditation.
An MD/MBA is a wise path if you are interested in administration. But don't think that just because you complete an MD/MBA program, hopsitals will be running out to hire you as there CEO. You would still need to spend years and years moving up the ladder, proving yourself along the way. Also, most hospitals, medical groups, etc. have a strong preference for an MD/MBA who has completed residency training and worked clinically, rather than someone who switched to 100% business mode after finishing school. The advantage of an MD/MBA as a CEO compared to a regular MBA, is that the MD/MBA has the clinical perspective and respect of his/her physician colleagues...an MD/MBA who does not practice clinically would have neither the true perspective or the respect of his/her physician colleagues.

 

[nero]

Originally posted by emdoc21
Nero,

I've never heard of a medical school giving credit for the preclinical years for business school training. At my school, we received a few credits for overlap courses such as epidemiology and biostatistics and a little 4th year elective credit. But I cannot imagine that the LCME would allow any school to sub the preclinical years for business school training, as business school absolutely does not cover anatomy, physiology, path, pharm, etc, and does not prepare you for the wards. There's no way a medical school offering a degree to a student without taking such courses would be able to maintain their accreditation.

Emdoc21, you're right, i've never heard of a med school giving preclincial years in exchange for b school training either.......what i was referring to was that the preclinical years are being substituted for the work experience many schools require prior to entering an MBA program. Since b schools realize that the premed is likely coming straight from college and can't get work experience, they allow the first two years of med school to count towards the work experience, that way the med student can do the MBA program without taking time off..........but you're right, they still have to go through b school to get the MBA............sorry for the confusion.

Originally posted by emdoc21

An MD/MBA is a wise path if you are interested in administration. But don't think that just because you complete an MD/MBA program, hopsitals will be running out to hire you as there CEO. You would still need to spend years and years moving up the ladder, proving yourself along the way. Also, most hospitals, medical groups, etc. have a strong preference for an MD/MBA who has completed residency training and worked clinically, rather than someone who switched to 100% business mode after finishing school. The advantage of an MD/MBA as a CEO compared to a regular MBA, is that the MD/MBA has the clinical perspective and respect of his/her physician colleagues...an MD/MBA who does not practice clinically would have neither the true perspective or the respect of his/her physician colleagues.

Agreed, a MD/MBA with only the MBA mindset is no better than just the MBA alone, dont waste your time if you are only going to do business.........just spend a couple of years and get the MBA, rather than four of med school.........also agreed that if you dont do residency or practice (at least part time), then your MD means very little.......most MD/MBA programs expect you to do a residency..........just like Emdoc21 said, if you do a residency adn practice a bit, then you'll deifnitley be in great shape to be high up on the ladder and can use that MD and MBA...

nero