MD/PhD LORs

[you2tambien]

---

Members do not see this ad.

I'm applying for MD/PhD this spring. How likely am I to need 2 LORs specifically from science professors I took a lecture course with? My letters right now are 1 orgo professor, 1 english professor, and 3 PIs, one of whom I took research for credit with.

In your opinions, do I need to find one other lecture prof to ask for a letter? I asked one freshman year gen chem prof but she hasn't responded to my email (not a good sign I'm thinking). Or would the research for credit count as a "science course"?

 

[check1212]

Does your school have a pre-med committee that writes you a "committee letter"? This might make a difference. In my experience, I only had one science lecture prof LOR, as this was all that was required by my school's pre-med committee. Some committees send a composite letter with your individual LORs as a packet, and some send their composite letter without, so I would think the individual LOR makeup doesn't make TOO much of a difference to schools.

If you don't have a committee, then I think a lot of schools will specify who they want letters from. Check their websites/FAQ?

As for whether the research credit would count as a "science course," I think your PI will likely write your letter as your PI (i.e. speaking to your work as their research assistant and your potential to be a good researcher) and not as a science prof (i.e. someone who knows you as a student in their class/lecture). This is just my opinion, but I would imagine that doesn't really qualify it as a science lecture prof LOR.

I'm applying for MD/PhD this spring. How likely am I to need 2 LORs specifically from science professors I took a lecture course with? My letters right now are 1 orgo professor, 1 english professor, and 3 PIs, one of whom I took research for credit with.

In your opinions, do I need to find one other lecture prof to ask for a letter? I asked one freshman year gen chem prof but she hasn't responded to my email (not a good sign I'm thinking). Or would the research for credit count as a "science course"?

 

[you2tambien]

Yes, my school has a committee letter. Would this committee letter supercede any individual requirements by specific schools? I guess I'm not too sure how that works.

Thanks for your response!

 

[URHere]

In general, you'll be expected to fulfill the requirements for both MD-program applicants and dual degree applicants.

If you have concerns about this, you can contact schools individually, but if a program requires 2 science LORS, then (in my experience) you will most likely need them also. I would suggest just finding someone to write you an additional letter (or enrolling in a class with one of your PIs).

For what it's worth, I don't think that research credit will safely count as a "science course".

 

[justgo]

This is just my experience, but I actually very successfully applied this year with ZERO letters explicitly from professors who taught me. I had 4 science research supervisors, 1 ethics/philosophy research supervisor (all 5 professors at my undergraduate/graduate institution or similar institutions with some teaching responsibilities across), 1 non-science professor with whom I took a course and who served on my graduate committee (kind of a research mentor!), 2 professors for whom I TAed classes (public health)....I had taken their courses previously, 2 clinical/extracurricular supervisors.

Not a single professor explicitly mentioned what I was like as a student in their courses (Yes, I have hence seen all the letters in at least one iteration because they all sent them to me after submitting them), mostly because the relationships were beyond that dynamic. I think there is a lot of flexibility in what you can actually submit as LORs.....especially if all of your LORs are going to knock the committee's socks off.

The hard and fast rules that I would go by are:
1. ALL research mentors
2. Anyone with whom you are going to list a significant experience in which you participated for > 2 years.
3. At least 1 person who routinely teaches SOME undergraduate course work on your campus (I actually did NOT have this....they all taught almost explicitly grad/professional courses)....preferable broken into two science and one non-science.

Additionally, my opinion in that committee letters tend to hurt you (advice from an MD/PhD assoc/assist program director at a top-20 program for whom I worked) because it limits how much any one person can say about you. So, if you have a lot of strong individual letters this will actually be better as long as you can swing it with respect to legality. I for example could have submitted a committee letter because of of my institutions had a committee, but elected not to because I was farther out of undergrad and I did not want to.

However, differnt programs have different preferences as to their students (I have opinions here) so different programs may want to see different things. The only way to know this is to ask, look at students in programs and what their apps looked like, and compulsively stalk to gleen info from SDN etc (which I would not recommend of course!)

Don't stress tooooo much.

 

[you2tambien]

This is just my experience, but I actually very successfully applied this year with ZERO letters explicitly from professors who taught me. I had 4 science research supervisors, 1 ethics/philosophy research supervisor (all 5 professors at my undergraduate/graduate institution or similar institutions with some teaching responsibilities across), 1 non-science professor with whom I took a course and who served on my graduate committee (kind of a research mentor!), 2 professors for whom I TAed classes (public health)....I had taken their courses previously, 2 clinical/extracurricular supervisors.

Not a single professor explicitly mentioned what I was like as a student in their courses (Yes, I have hence seen all the letters in at least one iteration because they all sent them to me after submitting them), mostly because the relationships were beyond that dynamic. I think there is a lot of flexibility in what you can actually submit as LORs.....especially if all of your LORs are going to knock the committee's socks off.

The hard and fast rules that I would go by are:
1. ALL research mentors
2. Anyone with whom you are going to list a significant experience in which you participated for > 2 years.
3. At least 1 person who routinely teaches SOME undergraduate course work on your campus (I actually did NOT have this....they all taught almost explicitly grad/professional courses)....preferable broken into two science and one non-science.

Additionally, my opinion in that committee letters tend to hurt you (advice from an MD/PhD assoc/assist program director at a top-20 program for whom I worked) because it limits how much any one person can say about you. So, if you have a lot of strong individual letters this will actually be better as long as you can swing it with respect to legality. I for example could have submitted a committee letter because of of my institutions had a committee, but elected not to because I was farther out of undergrad and I did not want to.

However, differnt programs have different preferences as to their students (I have opinions here) so different programs may want to see different things. The only way to know this is to ask, look at students in programs and what their apps looked like, and compulsively stalk to gleen info from SDN etc (which I would not recommend of course!)

Don't stress tooooo much.

I'm pretty sure I need my committee's letter, but they said on their website that they forward in full all of the letters that they receive. I think what I'll do is just contact each school I'm thinking about applying to and see what they say. I feel like it should be fine but I don't want any foolish rejections. Thanks for your advice.

 

[you2tambien]

This is why I'm confused though: "Applicants who have completed their pre-medical coursework as an undergraduate or postbaccalaureate student, at a college or university where there is a Pre-Professional Advisory committee, are required to submit a letter of recommendation from that Committee.

Applicants who have attended a school at which there is no Pre-Professional Advisory Committee must have at least two letters of recommendation from faculty members at that school. One of these letters should be from a faculty member in the department of the applicant's major, and the other from a science faculty member."

This is from the Einstein MD website-- so if you're getting a committee letter, it doesn't matter?

 

[delirium81]

I'm not entirely sure how a committee letter would ever hurt you, or how it limits what people can say about you. The committee letters that I've seen briefly summarize the contents of the other LORs, however the other LORs are still included in the packet in their entirety. Sometimes the committee letter will say something like "We give Jane Doe our strongest recommendation and would add that we consider her to be our top applicant this year" or something along those lines. When they say that, I'd say it's quite helpful to your app. If they're just a plain summary of the other LORs, then they're really not that helpful, but I wouldn't consider them harmful at all either.

 

[justgo]

I'm not entirely sure how a committee letter would ever hurt you, or how it limits what people can say about you. The committee letters that I've seen briefly summarize the contents of the other LORs, however the other LORs are still included in the packet in their entirety. Sometimes the committee letter will say something like "We give Jane Doe our strongest recommendation and would add that we consider her to be our top applicant this year" or something along those lines. When they say that, I'd say it's quite helpful to your app. If they're just a plain summary of the other LORs, then they're really not that helpful, but I wouldn't consider them harmful at all either.

Right, so if you are not the student considered the "top applicant" of the year that would hurt you I would say. I think it adds just one more political hurtle to the process personally....more people whose behinds you should kiss to get ahead (because you don't work with them, they don't REALLY know you, yet they will write a letter? hmmm, sounds like a lot of flattery is likely involved here.)

For any student who takes time off from school committee letters are supposedly often "lack-luster" according to my source because the committee has not had you sitting in front of them for a while. making you at a disadvantage to students roaring at the bit during their last undergrad year.

Personally, I was just not interested. My undergrad didn't have it, but my grad did and had submitted them for graduate students before. For a lot of people it is a requirement I understand, but I the point of my post was simply that there are a lot of different ways to have a killer stack of recommendations and that if possible you should think about which is best for your application.

 

[delirium81]

In my view there's a big difference between "not helpful" and "harmful." By not helpful, I just mean they didn't add anything that I couldn't already glean from reading the LORs, but if the LORs are already glowing then it really doesn't make a lick of difference. I've never read a committee letter that altered the opinion I had formed of the applicant based on the other LORs. If the committee doesn't really know you, then they'll summarize your LORs and that's about it. So if your LORs say that you walk on water? Well then, your committee letter will say that you walk on water, regardless of how many years you've been away and regardless of whose ass you did or did not kiss.

 

[StilgarMD]

given my understanding of the Committee letter, you have to get one. if the med school looks you over independent of the grade school and notices you don't have a committee letter when your school offers one, i've been told "it raises red flags", and you'll be grilled on why you didn't get one. thats all ive heard. perhaps it different with MD/PhD

 

[you2tambien]

Yes, I am definitely getting a committee letter from my institution. My question is whether or not getting the committee letter exempts you from the requirements for individual letters-- I send LORs to this committee then they send those letters along with whatever they write (I have to interview with them) to AMCAS. But the sentence I quoted from Einstein's website seems kind of ambiguous-- they make it seem like if you're getting a committee letter, then you don't need to have 2 science letters, 1 non-science, etc, as long as you have a committee letter. And then the rest of your letters could be whatever you want them to be.

Perhaps I'm not explaining my question very well.

 

[check1212]

given my understanding of the Committee letter, you have to get one. if the med school looks you over independent of the grade school and notices you don't have a committee letter when your school offers one, i've been told "it raises red flags", and you'll be grilled on why you didn't get one. thats all ive heard. perhaps it different with MD/PhD

I've also been told that this raises red flags. As to whether the committee letter supercedes individual letter requirements, I would guess so based on the fact that not all pre med committees send the individual letters. In my personal experience, I applied and was accepted to one school that recommends 2 science prof letters (as I posted above, I only had one science prof letter as part of my committee packet).

 

[delirium81]

My question is whether or not getting the committee letter exempts you from the requirements for individual letters-- I send LORs to this committee then they send those letters along with whatever they write (I have to interview with them) to AMCAS. But the sentence I quoted from Einstein's website seems kind of ambiguous-- they make it seem like if you're getting a committee letter, then you don't need to have 2 science letters, 1 non-science, etc, as long as you have a committee letter. And then the rest of your letters could be whatever you want them to be.

I think your best bet is to ask the Albert Einstein program administrator.

 

[you2tambien]

After looking up the website of the programs I'm interested in, most say that they will accept a committee letter OR (insert individual LOR requirement). I'm assuming that my committee letter + the additional letters will be fine.

Again, sorry to beat a dead horse, but if this seems incorrect to anyone, please let me know! Thanks to those who replied!

 

[stevvo111]

given my understanding of the Committee letter, you have to get one. if the med school looks you over independent of the grade school and notices you don't have a committee letter when your school offers one, i've been told "it raises red flags", and you'll be grilled on why you didn't get one. thats all ive heard. perhaps it different with MD/PhD

I've heard better things. My school recently stopped giving committee letters (top 25 undergrad school). They said they want med schools to make a harder attempt at getting to know the applicants from our school. I kind of believe it helped since I heard a bunch more people getting interviews and acceptances this year than in my brothers year(last year of committee letters- which were written based off a measly interview and questionnaire you filled out with your EC's and stuff). I'd say committee letters seem to hurt you by essentially throwing out all your "good stuff" in a superficially and non-personal manner.

 

[StilgarMD]

So i always thought Med schools recieved BOTH the Committee letter and all the individual LORs. is this not the case?

 

[K31]

So i always thought Med schools recieved BOTH the Committee letter and all the individual LORs. is this not the case?

That's what I've always seen when I've reviewed applications with committee letters. To be honest, I never pay attention to what the committee says, just the letters themselves.

 

[delirium81]

To be honest, I never pay attention to what the committee says, just the letters themselves.

Yeah, this exactly. I've read a lot of LOR packets from a lot of different schools, a fair number of which have had committee letters, and I've never seen a packet with a committee letter that did not also contain all of the full-length LORs. So I'm not sure where people are getting this idea that committees are just willy nilly throwing out the good stuff or not including the LORs.

I just don't want prospective applicants who go to schools with committees to read this thread and think they have yet another thing to worry about based on some hearsay and anecdotal evidence.

 

[StilgarMD]

thanks for clearing that up, because thats definitely the vibe i got from this thread.

 

[check1212]

Yeah, this exactly. I've read a lot of LOR packets from a lot of different schools, a fair number of which have had committee letters, and I've never seen a packet with a committee letter that did not also contain all of the full-length LORs. So I'm not sure where people are getting this idea that committees are just willy nilly throwing out the good stuff or not including the LORs.

I just don't want prospective applicants who go to schools with committees to read this thread and think they have yet another thing to worry about based on some hearsay and anecdotal evidence.

https://www.aamc.org/students/applying/amcas/faqs/147736/amcas_2010_faqs-17.6.html

"Committee Letter: A committee letter is a letter authored by a pre-health committee or pre-health advisor and intended to represent your institution's evaluation of you. A committee letter may or may not include additional letters written in support of your application."

is where I got the idea that individual LOR are not included, but I guess it's not really a thing. Sorry if I propagated some false idea about LORs! Mainly though, my point and my personal experience was that the committee letter seems to supercede specific requirements pertaining to # letters from x type of professor since your committee may/may not include the individual letters, and I think neither you nor the med school has much control over that.

 

[Maebea]

I've read over 40,000 letters in my time with the MD-PhD program, and I do pay attention to the committee letters. To be sure, they do not help with the evaluation of the applicant's research abilities. However, they can be insightful in detailing the applicant's personal journey, character, integrity and non-research attributes. Whereas a PI may write about 1 or 2 students a year, some committees evaluate a hundredfold more. As you might imagine, some institutions write more a valuable committee letter than others. The best of them are money in the bank, and I give them a fair amount of weight when I review an application.

 

[delirium81]

"Committee Letter: A committee letter is a letter authored by a pre-health committee or pre-health advisor and intended to represent your institution's evaluation of you. A committee letter may or may not include additional letters written in support of your application."

is where I got the idea that individual LOR are not included, but I guess it's not really a thing. Sorry if I propagated some false idea about LORs! Mainly though, my point and my personal experience was that the committee letter seems to supercede specific requirements pertaining to # letters from x type of professor since your committee may/may not include the individual letters, and I think neither you nor the med school has much control over that.

Huh. That's weird and I don't know why the AAMC says that since I've never seen or heard of a committee not including the individual LORs. No need for you to apologize since you had no reason not to believe an official source.

I obviously don't personally have control over what committees send but I sincerely doubt that any MD/PhD ad com would be ok with a committee only sending a summary letter, and I'm pretty sure they would let that school know that they required the full length LORs. This is probably why committees always include the full length LORs despite whatever the AAMC has to say about it. At the absolute minimum I can't imagine that any MD/PhD ad com wouldn't require the full length LORs from all of an applicant's PIs. I sincerely doubt it would ever be ok to not have those included.

 

[you2tambien]

After my extensive searching last weekend, many websites also had the line about "A committee letter may or may not be accompanied by additional letters."

For future applicants, it looks like UChicago is the only school that absolutely requires 2 science profs to write you a letter; the rest say a committee letter is fine.

 

[check1212]

Huh. That's weird and I don't know why the AAMC says that since I've never seen or heard of a committee not including the individual LORs. No need for you to apologize since you had no reason not to believe an official source.

I obviously don't personally have control over what committees send but I sincerely doubt that any MD/PhD ad com would be ok with a committee only sending a summary letter, and I'm pretty sure they would let that school know that they required the full length LORs. This is probably why committees always include the full length LORs despite whatever the AAMC has to say about it. At the absolute minimum I can't imagine that any MD/PhD ad com wouldn't require the full length LORs from all of an applicant's PIs. I sincerely doubt it would ever be ok to not have those included.

Definitely agree with that. I think even if the committee, for some reason or other, didn't include all the letters, your PIs would still have to send their full length LOR. Most if not all of the applications I filled out specifically asked you to list the PIs who wrote your LOR.

 

[soundnin]

my committee letter did not automatically include the original letters. i just asked them to.

Sent from my LS670 using Tapatalk