MD-PHD-MPH Simultaneously!?

[RagingBeauty]

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Hi Everyone,

Currently, I'm a researcher who is highly interested in pursuing not only a dual MD-PhD degree but a MPH in global health. Browsing through several websites, I noticed that some medical schools have either a dual MD-PhD program and/or a combined MD-MPH program. I spoke with several admission coordinators and directors in the past about applying to both MD/PhD and MPH programs; however, the typical responses I got were: 1) never had a student who wanted to pursue all 3 degrees concurrently; 2) more work & more years; 3) students typically obtain a MPH degree before or after enrolling in a MSTP/MD-PhD program; and 4) no point in getting a MPH if you already have a MD-PhD. Ok, what?! I've seen many physician-scientists with MD/PhD/MPH and even MD/PhD/MBA behind their names so pursing a MPH degree is not uncommon. Say it ain't so!😱 Any feedback and/or suggestions regarding this topic are greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance. 🙂

 

[mrsanator]

I've known several MD/PhD/MPHs and MD/PhD/MBAs, but everyone I've known has acquired all those degrees by changing their minds along the way during their career (such as in the ways you've described).

Can you share more about what you're thinking the benefit of a triple degree would be for you?

Hi Everyone,

Currently, I’m a researcher who is highly interested in pursuing not only a dual MD-PhD degree but a MPH in global health. Browsing through several websites, I noticed that some medical schools have either a dual MD-PhD program and/or a combined MD-MPH program. I spoke with several admission coordinators and directors in the past about applying to both MD/PhD and MPH programs; however, the typical responses I got were: 1) never had a student who wanted to pursue all 3 degrees concurrently; 2) more work & more years; 3) students typically obtain a MPH degree before or after enrolling in a MSTP/MD-PhD program; and 4) no point in getting a MPH if you already have a MD-PhD. Ok, what!?😕 I’ve seen many physician-scientists with MD/PhD/MPH and even MD/PhD/MBA behind their names so pursing a MPH degree is not uncommon. Say it ain’t so!😱 Any feedback and/or suggestions regarding this topic are greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance. 🙂

 

[StoicJosher]

Hi Everyone,

Currently, I’m a researcher who is highly interested in pursuing not only a dual MD-PhD degree but a MPH in global health. Browsing through several websites, I noticed that some medical schools have either a dual MD-PhD program and/or a combined MD-MPH program. I spoke with several admission coordinators and directors in the past about applying to both MD/PhD and MPH programs; however, the typical responses I got were: 1) never had a student who wanted to pursue all 3 degrees concurrently; 2) more work & more years; 3) students typically obtain a MPH degree before or after enrolling in a MSTP/MD-PhD program; and 4) no point in getting a MPH if you already have a MD-PhD. Ok, what!?😕 I’ve seen many physician-scientists with MD/PhD/MPH and even MD/PhD/MBA behind their names so pursing a MPH degree is not uncommon. Say it ain’t so!😱 Any feedback and/or suggestions regarding this topic are greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance. 🙂

I think you answered your own question.

1) never had a student who wanted to pursue all 3 degrees concurrently;

3) students typically obtain a MPH degree before or after enrolling in a MSTP/MD-PhD program;

 

[StIGMA]

You can be a clinician and either a serious bench scientist or public health researcher. You arent going to be doing all 3 jobs to their fullest potential, although you can pursue an MD and either the bench researcher / MPH to their full potential. Just because someone has all three degrees doesn't mean that they are using them.

So desiring all three degrees makes you seem very 1) uninformed 2) unsure of your career goals 3) degree seeking 4) foolish or 5) stupid.

If you have all the experience listed in your MD-Apps, then I have no idea how you don't have serious career goals or know at least something about research/academic clinical research careers.

 

[Narmerguy]

Wow, I've never heard of someone wanting to do all three at once. Every doctor I've met that had all three typically added one later than the others (typically the MPH).

It may not be practical to try to combine all of that into your medical/clinical training. Some residencies will allow you to take a bit longer to add a PhD to your work, you might explore that.

 

[RagingBeauty]

I've known several MD/PhD/MPHs and MD/PhD/MBAs, but everyone I've known has acquired all those degrees by changing their minds along the way during their career (such as in the ways you've described).

Can you share more about what you're thinking the benefit of a triple degree would be for you?

Mrsanator,

Thanks for your response in this matter. In short, some current areas of interest are:

MD- neurology; neurosurgery

PhD- neuroimaging techniques; proteomic technology; plasticity of the central nervous system; movement disorders; international research collaborations

MPH- health disparities; minority and global health; neuroepidemiology of cerebrovascular disease; cultural competence in health care; health policy & management

I’m 100% pro MD/PhD, just curious to know if pursuing a MPH along with a dual MD-PhD degree is realistic in nature. Lately, I’ve been advised to pursue a MPH degree based on my interests and previous work in public health. Thanks again.🙂

 

[RagingBeauty]

You can be a clinician and either a serious bench scientist or public health researcher. You arent going to be doing all 3 jobs to their fullest potential, although you can pursue an MD and either the bench researcher / MPH to their full potential. Just because someone has all three degrees doesn't mean that they are using them.

So desiring all three degrees makes you seem very 1) uninformed 2) unsure of your career goals 3) degree seeking 4) foolish or 5) stupid.

If you have all the experience listed in your MD-Apps, then I have no idea how you don't have serious career goals or know at least something about research/academic clinical research careers.

StIGMA,

Wow! Why are YOU so upset and hostile? 😡 😕 Are you trying to activate my sympathetic nervous system? As you can see, I have post-undergrad scientific and clinical research experience in academia, government, and industry/corporate so maybe I know a little something about scientific careers. If I didn't have serious career goals, I wouldn't be willing to leave a $150,000.00+ job in this terrible economy to be in a 7-8 year dual degree program earning less than $30,000 a year. As a wife and mother, this is a big sacrifice. Do you Boo and let me do me!👍 Definitely no love lost here. 😍

 

[StIGMA]

I am not hostile. You asked for advice- take it. I am focused in my answers and advice because that is how I would consider you if I had your application in my hand. I would conclude that you do not have defined career goals. I would ask you why, specifically, do you want the PhD. Why the MPH? How do you see those working together? Where do you see yourself working at the end of residency when you are, possibly, 45 after a neurosurgery residency. How will you balance all this work with children? If you had to drop one of the three, or two of the three, what would you stick with, and why?

The fact is that you most likely will not fully use a PhD (in the MD/PhD sense, a bench research degree) and an MPH at the same time while holding a clinical appointment.

All your emoticons make you seem emotionally labile. I believe you have "serious" career goals, but I do not think that you have specific, defined, reasonable career goals. And unless you have them, it is unlikely that you will be well received by MD-PhD programs.

 

[RagingBeauty]

I am not hostile. You asked for advice- take it. I am focused in my answers and advice because that is how I would consider you if I had your application in my hand. I would conclude that you do not have defined career goals. I would ask you why, specifically, do you want the PhD. Why the MPH? How do you see those working together? Where do you see yourself working at the end of residency when you are, possibly, 45 after a neurosurgery residency. How will you balance all this work with children? If you had to drop one of the three, or two of the three, what would you stick with, and why?

The fact is that you most likely will not fully use a PhD (in the MD/PhD sense, a bench research degree) and an MPH at the same time while holding a clinical appointment.

All your emoticons make you seem emotionally labile. I believe you have "serious" career goals, but I do not think that you have specific, defined, reasonable career goals. And unless you have them, it is unlikely that you will be well received by MD-PhD programs.

Well taken, great points, again no love lost. As for all the emoticons, I absolutely love the smiles. Hope that's Ok with you. lol

 

[StIGMA]

I really wish you the best. If you apply for an MD/PhD program and press the programs that you also want an MPH at somepoint, it will cause the program to question your seriousness about the MD/PhD.

The other three posters in the thread express the same general sentiment that I have. It is really important for you to decide if you would rather run a lab 80% of your professional time with 20% time clinical (this is the goal of MD/PhD programs- to produce majority researchers), or if you would rather spend more time clinically while also doing global health/MPH-related research (MD/MPH). There is no good scenario where you run a bench lab 50-80%+ of your time, spend time clinically, and still have time to conduct important global health work.

 

[RagingBeauty]

I really wish you the best. If you apply for an MD/PhD program and press the programs that you also want an MPH at somepoint, it will cause the program to question your seriousness about the MD/PhD.

The other three posters in the thread express the same general sentiment that I have. It is really important for you to decide if you would rather run a lab 80% of your professional time with 20% time clinical (this is the goal of MD/PhD programs- to produce majority researchers), or if you would rather spend more time clinically while also doing global health/MPH-related research (MD/MPH). There is no good scenario where you run a bench lab 50-80%+ of your time, spend time clinically, and still have time to conduct important global health work.

Got it! Just curious about the whole MD-PhD-MPH process. Thanks.👍

 

[PfNO22]

Got it! Just curious about the whole MD-PhD-MPH process. Thanks.👍

FWIW, I got an MPH before starting MD/PhD. You could really do it whenever but you may be tired of courses just after an MD/PHD. There are some programs for working physicians. None of the working MD/PhDs I know would have the time to do it while working, I think a researcher would have to stop.

MPHs are quick. Hey, what's another year? But seriously, think about the value of one year in the scheme of things for you.

 

[PfNO22]

There is no good scenario where you run a bench lab 50-80%+ of your time, spend time clinically, and still have time to conduct important global health work.

This is total BS. I say that because I have met those people. And they make the world a better place.

 

[StIGMA]

This is total BS. I say that because I have met those people. And they make the world a better place.

They do it within the same field. Epidemiologists are a great example. You don't need to misconstrue what I said. Again, there is no good scenario where you [ the poster, in her examples ] run a bench lab 50-80%+ of your time [eg; proteomics], spend time clinically, still have time to conduct important global health work [eg; a different research topic, like health disparities], do all this to their potential, and still be a mother [or father]. That doesn't mean a rare individual doesn't exist- but it's not you, not yet, PfNO22.

Capiche?

 

[RagingBeauty]

PfNO22 and StlGMA,

Thanks for your feedback and insights regarding this matter.🙂

 

[PfNO22]

They do it within the same field. Epidemiologists are a great example. You don't need to misconstrue what I said. Again, there is no good scenario where you [ the poster, in her examples ] run a bench lab 50-80%+ of your time [eg; proteomics], spend time clinically, still have time to conduct important global health work [eg; a different research topic, like health disparities], do all this to their potential, and still be a mother [or father]. That doesn't mean a rare individual doesn't exist- but it's not you, not yet, PfNO22.

Capiche?

No I don't capiche.

Infectious disease, like tropical diseases or especially neglected tropical diseases, provide wonderful opportunities for doing those three things simultaneously. And not even to rule out that one's focus and balance can shift from 50/30/20 or whatever over the course of time.

And yes, haha, it is clearly not me. But that's not interesting to anyone. 😉

 

[SBR249]

I think StIGMA did mention doing all three things to their potential not just simultaneously. Getting a degree just so you can dabble in something is somewhat of a waste.

 

[justgo]

Yeah. I have a 2 year public health degree (all the course work before a PhD) and I have to side with StIGMA in this battle (P.S. 1 year MPH degrees are questionable....either they are European or are for folks who already did an MD degree. If it is a stateside 1 year degree it is viewed sideways in my experience...so plan on it being a 2 year degree unless you do it after completing the MD....and if you are going to do it halfway, as 1 year programs are in my opinion, why do it at all?)

I have a lot of work experience in this arena, and now acceptances to tippity top MSTP programs, but I have never throughout my career (of 11 years) met someone who did all three parts well. Usually they are busy to the point of pseudo-schizophrenia and really only gloss over the details of the work being done in their "labs", field sites, and clinics....The existence of these folks has been great for me as I could fund, carry out, and publish my own things effectively without interference because my boss had no idea what I was doing....but these folks do not use all their degrees and I truly truly question whether they do any good at all in terms of "global health". I think they do not and actually do a lot of self-serving harm to the local context.

I look at anyone that thinks all three can be done well with great skepticism and consider them to be naive. I would imagine this view is shared by admission folks as on the interview trail many adcom folks have noted that I was unique for not being naive in this field and I think that is perhaps part of why I have done so well this season. I also think that if you say you want to do global health you had better have spent a LONG time (years) in global/tropical/under served locations. If you have never gone a week without using any water to clean yourself, you haven't gone long enough in my opinion.

On a selfish note, I would really like to see people less of the "cast" going into this terrain because goodness I hate working with the crazies, and I do think there is a "right" way to do it, I just think that egos get in the way and people think they are demigods playing with the little folk in Africa while also having it all in the US of A. It's not fair to all concerned and is rather self aggrandizing and arrogant of the researchers involved. What is the real point of it all?

Anyways, StIGMAs input was well placed I believe. Let the blasting begin!

 

[RagingBeauty]

Thanks for all of the public and private comments and suggestions! 🙂

 

[gbwillner]

As someone who has finished MD/PhD, residency and soon fellowship; and has gotten a taste of the real world, I find the notion of an MD/PhD/MPH laughable. At the same time, I totally understand- you are young and ambitious and want to do everything. As you grow, you will need to focus. It's hard enough to manage a lab that is competitive- it's much more difficult to do that AND have some clinical responsibilities. I frankly don't know where the MPH could even fit in to the current schemes. Now, if you really want to work on epidemiology and heath disparities, you should totally do the MPH. But drop the PhD, because you will never use it.
You still have time to figure it out, but I don't think anyone who's gone through this process will tell you an MD/PhD/MPH is a good, or even feasable, idea.

 

[solitude]

I agree with everybody that it is very, very hard (or impossible) to do all three well.

However - and you may call me naive - I think there is one acceptable reason, and that is intellectual curiosity. I've thought about doing this, not because I ultimately want to do all three, but because 1 year for an MPH is a relatively small investment to learn about something simply because it is interesting. I think too often people on here, and in the real world, couch education entirely in practical terms. Instead, I think education has a value in and of itself. The perspectives gained may redound to the benefit of one's patient care or basic science research, or may simply redound to that individual's intellectual well-being. If that's what somebody choose, more power to him.

And in thinking about this a bit more, there are two additional places I have seen this:
1) MD who does an MPH in epi, then ultimately follows that up with a PhD in epi. The MD and PhD are done separately.
2) politician/administrator, who, by virtue of the three degrees, gains knowledge and street cred with three different missions of the med school/university.

 

[PfNO22]

And in thinking about this a bit more, there are two additional places I have seen this:
1) MD who does an MPH in epi, then ultimately follows that up with a PhD in epi. The MD and PhD are done separately.
2) politician/administrator, who, by virtue of the three degrees, gains knowledge and street cred with three different missions of the med school/university.

Ding ding ding, winner!

1: much coursework from the MPH will be counted towards the PhD

 

[SBR249]

And in thinking about this a bit more, there are two additional places I have seen this:
1) MD who does an MPH in epi, then ultimately follows that up with a PhD in epi. The MD and PhD are done separately.
2) politician/administrator, who, by virtue of the three degrees, gains knowledge and street cred with three different missions of the med school/university.

I feel like this is using the exception to prove the rule. In the first scenario, the MD/PhD/MPH are not done simultaneously. To address the fact that MPH courses overlap with epi PhD courses, that doesn't make much sense either. That's like saying an MS coursework overlaps with PhD, so physician-scientists should do MD/PhD/MS or something like that. If there's that much overlap, then you'd just go ahead and get the terminal degree and move on.

As for the second scenario, how many MSTP applicant start out by saying they want to be a politician/administrator? That's not even a goal of the MST program really. If someone said that, I bet a majority of the MD/PhD programs out there would probably reject that person outright. I bet most people who end up in that position did so serendipitously or as a result of circumstances beyond their control, rather than that being their ultimate goal. If that were true, it would be foolish to dedicate your training to something that usually only happens by chance.

 

[solitude]

I feel like this is using the exception to prove the rule. In the first scenario, the MD/PhD/MPH are not done simultaneously. To address the fact that MPH courses overlap with epi PhD courses, that doesn't make much sense either. That's like saying an MS coursework overlaps with PhD, so physician-scientists should do MD/PhD/MS or something like that. If there's that much overlap, then you'd just go ahead and get the terminal degree and move on.

As for the second scenario, how many MSTP applicant start out by saying they want to be a politician/administrator? That's not even a goal of the MST program really. If someone said that, I bet a majority of the MD/PhD programs out there would probably reject that person outright. I bet most people who end up in that position did so serendipitously or as a result of circumstances beyond their control, rather than that being their ultimate goal. If that were true, it would be foolish to dedicate your training to something that usually only happens by chance.

I'm not really sure we disagree here...

1) It is a fact that MPH courses overlap with Epi PhD courses. Yes, if you know you want the Epi PhD, it doesn't make sense to do the MPH and then the PhD. Sometimes people don't know what they want.

2) Agree that it is rare. Completely disagree that people get there serendipitously or as a result of circumstances beyond their control. Why foolish? Maybe they enjoy it. See above--damn people, in life you are allowed to do things simply because you like them and not because they are the exact most efficient means to achieve your ends. Ever take a detour, just because you felt like it?

In any case, it may not be a goal of MST programs, but it is probably one of the most effective ways for them to spend money. Who better to defend the value of MSTPs at a med school (which donate a substantial chunk of MSTP operating budgets), at NIH, or beyond, than somebody who was supported by one?

 

[SBR249]

I'm not really sure we disagree here...

1) It is a fact that MPH courses overlap with Epi PhD courses. Yes, if you know you want the Epi PhD, it doesn't make sense to do the MPH and then the PhD. Sometimes people don't know what they want.

2) Agree that it is rare. Completely disagree that people get there serendipitously or as a result of circumstances beyond their control. Why foolish? Maybe they enjoy it. See above--damn people, in life you are allowed to do things simply because you like them and not because they are the exact most efficient means to achieve your ends. Ever take a detour, just because you felt like it?

In any case, it may not be a goal of MST programs, but it is probably one of the most effective ways for them to spend money. Who better to defend the value of MSTPs at a med school (which donate a substantial chunk of MSTP operating budgets), at NIH, or beyond, than somebody who was supported by one?

I never said anything about enjoyment, I'm sure these people love what they do. What I meant was that those positions are not usually something you can plan on. You usually fall into it or not. It doesn't make much sense to do MD/PhD/MPH w/e for the "leadership potential" if you aren't really planning on using it for much else.

 

[gbwillner]

As for the second scenario, how many MSTP applicant start out by saying they want to be a politician/administrator? That's not even a goal of the MST program really. If someone said that, I bet a majority of the MD/PhD programs out there would probably reject that person outright. I bet most people who end up in that position did so serendipitously or as a result of circumstances beyond their control, rather than that being their ultimate goal. If that were true, it would be foolish to dedicate your training to something that usually only happens by chance.

If circumstances being "beyond their control" means being deceiful, power-hungry, opportunistic, and an adulterer, then I agree.

 

[solitude]

If circumstances being "beyond their control" means being deceiful, power-hungry, opportunistic, and an adulterer, then I agree.

all the more reason for honest, humble, selfless, fidelitous people like you and me to go in there and mix things up.

 

[RagingBeauty]

You guys are too funny! Thanks again for all of your thoughts and feedback.