MD/PhD reject reapplying as MD-only... any chance?

[Medphil]

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Hey, rejected MD/PhD everywhere. So far accepted to only one non-US, international school. Assuming that's all I have, I'm strongly considering waiting a year and reapplying... obviously MD-only.

So I'll be re-app to the schools that rejected me MD/PhD (and then just MD-only), some even without an interview. Any chance of getting accepted with NO change to my application, no new MCAT score?

I think I would definitely have gotten in, at least to state schools, with my application had I applied MD-only this year. But having been rejected MD/PhD there, do I have any chance on MD-only next year? 😳

Please keep in mind: The reason I think I'm different than other MD-MD reapps is that when they ask me why I didn't get in last year, I'll say because I made a mistake and wasn't competitive enough for the MD/PhD program straight out, but yes for the MD-only. In other words: I think I'm not just another reapp who has to justify why didn't get in last year, because this is a totally different application. Am I totally wrong?

 

[Medphil]

So I outlined my situation in the previous thread: applied MD/PhD, rejected to all, some even without an interview. I want to reapply in this coming cycle, obviously MD-only, to those same schools.

Maybe this post belongs in the MD forums, but then maybe not. Please keep in mind: The reason I think I'm different than other MD-MD reapps is that when they ask me why I didn't get in last year, I'll say because I made a mistake and wasn't competitive enough for the MD/PhD program straight out, but yes for the MD-only. In other words: I think I'm not just another reapp who has to justify why didn't get in last year, because this is a totally different application.

Anyway, what do I do in this coming year to improve my application, to ensure I get in MD-only next year?

• I'm not retaking the MCAT (I haven't been studying for it, don't remember orgo, not registered for an exam and it's already June).
• I have 3 years of research in a pretty low-level undergrad, no publications.
• I have tons of volunteer hours.

What I want to do is call up many labs in great, reputable schools (separate Q: is this even doable? Would anyone take me just like that?), especially a mid-to-upper-tier school where I'd be really interested in doing my MD/PhD. Get a great one-year-long research project to work on. Get accepted to their MD program, get into their MD/PhD program during MD year 1, and flesh out the one-year project into a PhD. This way I:

• Haven't lost a year from the MD/PhD program (I have a year of solid research under my belt).
• Though probably haven't yet submitted a paper for publication, so I still won't have a publication to show for all my research.

And if I don't get in to the MD/PhD program from med school, hey: at least I'm in medical school.

I've heard that doing a year of research, no matter where, ain't going to impress nobody the second time around. Is this true? If it is true, is there anything I can do to make a diff in an MD app? THANKS!

 

[Cytotoxic]

You were rejected MD-only at all (US) schools, so whatever was deficient about your application affected your candidacy for both MD/PhD and MD. Fix it or you'll most likely be in the same situation next year.

 

[JmanDO]

Yea, most schools will also consider you for MD only if they see you don't match up for the combo, so in essence, you were rejected from all the combos as well as their MD only's (but to be fair, since you applied for the combo, you weren't considered for MD as early as you could have been-which may or may not have played a significant factor) so don't stagnate.

You should improve something, as there is always something to do. Besides giving yourself a greater chance (which is reason enough to refine your app), you'll also likely be asked what you'd been doing in the year you applied, and you don't want to say "nothing."

As for what you should improve, you can ask why they didn't accept you the first time and work from there.

Good luck.

 

[Neuronix]

Honestly, I'm surprised you didn't get in. I wonder what the factors were? An MCAT of 31 is pretty low, but did that really do it on its own? Did you get many interviews? I wonder if you had a bad LOR or a bad essays or a bad interview or something else.

 

[Medphil]

You were rejected MD-only at all (US) schools, so whatever was deficient about your application affected your candidacy for both MD/PhD and MD. Fix it or you'll most likely be in the same situation next year.

Yea, most schools will also consider you for MD only if they see you don't match up for the combo, so in essence, you were rejected from all the combos as well as their MD only's (but to be fair, since you applied for the combo, you weren't considered for MD as early as you could have been-which may or may not have played a significant factor) so don't stagnate.

Ah, but my impression is that many don't really consider you for MD-only, but reject you straight off (or after a suitable hiatus) because 'you'd go somewhere else if you got in MD/PhD, so why would you want to come here.' I mean, not to be hubristic or anything, but I got rejected flat-out from MD/PhD and MD at schools that I should have had no problem at all getting in MD; I think because they don't really consider you for MD-only. So that's what I would tell schools at interviews (should I tell them that in my personal essay?).

You should improve something, as there is always something to do. Besides giving yourself a greater chance (which is reason enough to refine your app), you'll also likely be asked what you'd been doing in the year you applied, and you don't want to say "nothing."

For that, I could do the research (or a postbacc program). But what will actively get me into a school instead of just a passive 'oh, this guy didn't waste his time.'

 

[Medphil]

Honestly, I'm surprised you didn't get in. I wonder what the factors were? An MCAT of 31 is pretty low, but did that really do it on its own? Did you get many interviews? I wonder if you had a bad LOR or a bad essays or a bad interview or something else.

You've got my number, eh, Neuronix? I got about 9 MD/PhD interviews (and 2 US-school MD-only ones, waitlisted both; plus waitlisted MD-only at 4 MD/PhD-interviewed schools), though I applied to tons. I think that's quite a few interviews, so I thought that my interview style was bad (I was rather nervous at the first 46 interviews or so!). I got quite a few nice comments about some of my LORs. I also got a few kudos on my essay (the MD essay, at least). So conceivably my nervousness killed me at the first 7 MD/PhD schools, though I was rather cool at my last 2 MD/PhD and the other MD-only interviews. .... Perhaps a bigger question is why am I waitlisted at two really low-level schools where I applied MD-only; maybe because they saw my MD/PhD LORs and figured I would never come?

I don't know. I sent to one school that obviously should have accepted me at least MD-only asking specifically why rejected for both, and they said I'd hear back maybe 5 weeks from today.

And yeah, a huge improvement on this app cycle will be interview experience and keeping cool (I hope): maybe that's all I really need, I don't know.

 

[Neuronix]

I don't know about got your number, but I like to keep track of my crystal-ball like predictions. Based on what you said months ago I thought you had very good chances. Maybe it was your interviews that sunk you? It's really impossible for us to know. With nine interviews I find it unlikely it was your MCAT score or something else in your application.

You probably have strong chances whether you reapply MD or MD/PhD. You could conceivably try both next year or just pick MD.

For your year out I think your best bets are to work a research job (for MD/PhD or MD) or a clinical job (for MD), keep involved in shadowing and/or volunteering, and get in some vacation/medical mission type stuff and of course keep your life balanced and sane.

Sorry it didn't work out for you last time.

 

[Medphil]

You probably have strong chances whether you reapply MD or MD/PhD. You could conceivably try both next year or just pick MD.

For your year out I think your best bets are to work a research job (for MD/PhD or MD) or a clinical job (for MD), keep involved in shadowing and/or volunteering, and get in some vacation/medical mission type stuff and of course keep your life balanced and sane.

Thanks for the advice. Qs:

1. Do I have a chance of getting in to those places that didn't even interview me this year? Or can I pull the 'this is a completely different application because it's MD-only' thing?
2. Assuming I could get a research position anywhere (is it that easy, if I don't insist on getting paid?), should I try to get it at the mid-tier school that has good research but that didn't interview me this year but that I would most like to go based on my current chances? In other words, if I can work at either Harvard or the school that might accept me, would that other school be more likely to accept me if I worked with them or at Harvard? I'm assuming I won't have a publication from either place by the time I submit my app.
3. What do you mean "medical mission"? Community service?
4. This year I basically applied everywhere MD/PhD. In the reapp, should I apply MD-only to the schools that should have accepted me MD-only (because now I need safety just to get into med school)? If so, where should I be applying MD/PhD -- to the schools that would probably never even interview me anyway?

Thanks!

 

[Medphil]

Another question: what about the international school acceptance? Should I just forget about it? And what about the TUSM post-bacc program that guarantees an acceptance with a certain grade -- should I spend the year on that instead of research/clinical stuff?

 

[Neuronix]

Another question: what about the international school acceptance? Should I just forget about it? And what about the TUSM post-bacc program that guarantees an acceptance with a certain grade -- should I spend the year on that instead of research/clinical stuff?

I'm not a big believer in post-baccs, espcially for someone in your case who has all the pre-med prerequisites and a strong GPA. I'm sure they would take you and it would be a track into Temple, but you are essentially guaranteeing yourself a 5th year of medical school tuition and probably no financial aid package outside of loans. These sorts of programs are money making devices for the medical schools.

[*]Do I have a chance of getting in to those places that didn't even interview me this year? Or can I pull the 'this is a completely different application because it's MD-only' thing?

I can't speak for all schools. My intuition is that they wouldn't even recognize that you applied the year before unless you tell them. Some adcoms find this persistance refreshing, others will find you to be damaged goods. So... Not sure what to tell you on this one.

[*]Assuming I could get a research position anywhere (is it that easy, if I don't insist on getting paid?), should I try to get it at the mid-tier school that has good research but that didn't interview me this year but that I would most like to go based on my current chances? In other words, if I can work at either Harvard or the school that might accept me, would that other school be more likely to accept me if I worked with them or at Harvard? I'm assuming I won't have a publication from either place by the time I submit my app.

Take the best research position for you.

[*]What do you mean "medical mission"? Community service?

Foreign country work.

[*]This year I basically applied everywhere MD/PhD. In the reapp, should I apply MD-only to the schools that should have accepted me MD-only (because now I need safety just to get into med school)? If so, where should I be applying MD/PhD -- to the schools that would probably never even interview me anyway?

😕 Just put together a mix of schools. There isn't a magical reapplication strategy that I'm aware of.

 

[Medphil]

I'm not a big believer in post-baccs, espcially for someone in your case who has all the pre-med prerequisites and a strong GPA. I'm sure they would take you and it would be a track into Temple, but you are essentially guaranteeing yourself a 5th year of medical school tuition and probably no financial aid package outside of loans. These sorts of programs are money making devices for the medical schools.

So you're saying take the chance that I'll have to reapply yet a third time? And you wouldn't say to take the international school's acceptance, that way saving a year, plus certainty?

I can't speak for all schools. My intuition is that they wouldn't even recognize that you applied the year before unless you tell them. Some adcoms find this persistance refreshing, others will find you to be damaged goods. So... Not sure what to tell you on this one.

Don't they ask you on the application if you've applied already? Are you saying I should just select 'no' or that they probably won't pay attention to that question anyway? I know a reapp who was asked at every interview why he didn't get in last time, and he didn't get in the second time either.

Take the best research position for you.

There are many positions that I would love. If I would love equally the positions

• one in Harvard -- where I shouldn't even reapply to
• one in my mid-tier school that didn't interview me this year -- and so I would call this my reach/dream school that shouldn't really be a dream
• one in a low-tier school who rejected me MD/PhD

which should I work at? Harvard -- to impress the mid-tier and low-tier schools? The mid-tier school -- to show them I really love them? The low-tier school -- because that might be the only place I could realistically get in anyway, so I should show them I really love them?

😕 Just put together a mix of schools. There isn't a magical reapplication strategy that I'm aware of.

I'm saying, I feel like I should be applying only MD-only. I've been rejected everywhere, I'm scared, don't want to reapply a third time, I can apply MD/PhD from medical school. Anywhere I might get in, shouldn't I be just trying to get in, period?

Thanks for all your help. 🙂

 

[Neuronix]

Yeah, I dunno what to tell you. I can speculate all day long but this is just over my head. Maybe someone else knows. The few things I would comment on:

I would recommend NOT going to an international medical school. Your problem then becomes getting a residency, which is about to get very tight for internationals by the time you graduate.

Pick your lab position based on lab things. Location, PI, project, your role, etc etc etc... I wouldn't think of it in terms of which will help you make the best connections to get in or whatever. You doing well in the lab is what will help you most, and that depends on having a good, independent (or mostly independent) project, support from the PI and lab members, and being in a situation/location that allows you to succeed best.

 

[Medphil]

Yo, yeah, I know Harvard isn't automatically the best place to be. I'm just asking that if Location, PI, project, your role, etc etc etc. work out great and equally in multiple locations, which should be the first to choose? Another way of looking at this question is, there are at scores and scores of institutions and labs to work at, but which ones should I look at and call first: at the school that would impress or at the school that I want to go to or at the school that is easiest to get into? I am not making a statement about name-branding!

 

[echod]

I would recommend NOT going to an international medical school. Your problem then becomes getting a residency, which is about to get very tight for internationals by the time you graduate.

.

Neuronix, could you explain why residency would get very tight for graduates of international medical schools in 4 years? Are there some significant changes to the residency system that I am not aware of? Thanks a lot.

 

[Neuronix]

Neuronix, could you explain why residency would get very tight for graduates of international medical schools in 4 years? Are there some significant changes to the residency system that I am not aware of? Thanks a lot.

http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2010/03/29/prl20329.htm

The new schools and expansion at existing schools will increase first-year enrollment by 21% in 2013, according to a May 2009 Center for Workforce Studies report. But the Balanced Budget Act of 1997 capped the number of new Medicare-paid residents that each teaching hospital can claim.

The number of residents and fellows increased 8% from 1987 to 2007, according to an AAMC report, but that growth rate will not be enough to match the loss of baby boomer physicians set to retire soon. One in three active physicians is 55 or older, Salsberg said.

The most likely effect of the new schools will be to change the composition of students filling residency slots, said Richard "Buz" Cooper, MD, professor of medicine at the University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine and co-chair of the Council on Physician and Nurse Supply.

Starting a new medical school can cost $100 million to $150 million. The new schools are "necessary but not sufficient," Dr. Cooper said. "We will need more U.S. grads -- we can't continue to depend on [international medical graduates]. But unless graduate medical education is expanded, the new grads will simply replace IMGs, and there will be no increase in supply."

Short version: medical schools are rapidly increasing enrollment, but residency positions are flat. Unless residency spots open across the board, two things will happen:

1) IMGs will be squeezed out of the match
2) AMGs will increasingly be forced into primary care as everything else gets more competitive. This will be doubly true if residency spots are only opened in primary care to address the primary care "shortage".

The projections I saw at a recent presentation were that we won't have enough residency positions for all AMG MD and DO students around the year 2013.

 

[Shifty B]

Wow, I've never seen a description like that of it getting tougher for IMGs. However, I generally agree that for a US grad to go to an international medical school will make things much harder, even in the current climate. Most competitive specialties are totally out of reach for IMGs, and unless you are SURE you want to do primary care it's a really tough match.

When you reapply, I think you can get admitted. Definitely take a hard look at what schools you're applying to and include more at the low end. State schools and low tier private schools may be the best option for you. Plus, consider places that you didn't apply because they don't have significant MD/PhD programs. Doesn't matter now.

Also, consider DO school. It's much better to be a US DO than an IMG MD, in my opinion.

 

[Medphil]

When you reapply, I think you can get admitted. Definitely take a hard look at what schools you're applying to and include more at the low end. State schools and low tier private schools may be the best option for you. Plus, consider places that you didn't apply because they don't have significant MD/PhD programs. Doesn't matter now.

Also, consider DO school. It's much better to be a US DO than an IMG MD, in my opinion.

Thanks, Shifty B. Thing is, I did apply to all state schools, all lower-tier med schools in the region; I applied MD/PhD to all those that offered it (assuming, I think incorrectly, that I would be considered seriously for MD) and MD-only to those that didn't offer it on the AMCAS app plus a few other low-tier. And I'm rejected or waitlisted. So I applied to all those non-significant-MD/PhD-programs already, and they rejected me/waitlisted for MD. In terms of schools, there isn't much place else I could add that I'd be willing to go; it looks like I'll have to reapp to the same places MD-only, but change something... what, aside for what Neuronix suggested, which I've (humbly) taken some issue with? I mean, I'm still not sure: will another year of research really do me good change? I've talked to other current MD students and they think, frankly, it won't do anything -- raising the question of will I even get in next year or just do IMG or post-bacc.

Unless I believe Neuronix, whose intuition tell him(/her?) that he(/she) doesn't think I'll have a problem. And I implicitly trust you, Neuronix, but is another year of research/volunteering really a surety enough? Anyone else any thoughts, please?

 

[Neuronix]

Unless I believe Neuronix, whose intuition tell him(/her?) that he(/she) doesn't think I'll have a problem. And I implicitly trust you, Neuronix, but is another year of research/volunteering really a surety enough? Anyone else any thoughts, please?

Nothing is sure in this world, and just doing another year of research doesn't guarantee you acceptance. But if you're going to reapply you should seem dedicated by keeping yourself in the field you claim to want to be in.

 

[Medphil]

Nothing is sure in this world, and just doing another year of research doesn't guarantee you acceptance. But if you're going to reapply you should seem dedicated by keeping yourself in the field you claim to want to be in.

Thanks for the clarification, Neuronix. Maybe I should ask this on the MD forums, but since I'll be applying and aiming mainly toward MD-only next year (just to make sure I end up somewhere), would you say it would actually be better maybe to work full-time for a community service or something rather than spend another year in the lab?

Separate Q: if I do the research thing, how should I proceed with that? I talked to a tech who said that you have to apply to the school through Human Resources, that it took him about 6 months to get through the whole process even though he already knew the PI personally and was assured that he'd be working in the lab. Is this only if I want to get paid? If I don't mind not being paid (and I don't mind, though at least housing would be amazing, and obviously it would be amazing if I was paid), I would just call up the PI and say, 'hey, I'm __, I have this lab experience, applying to enter med school in a year, love your research, can I get a project to work on for a year?' Then at the end of the convo/personal-interview followup, ask for monetary?

 

[whiteshadodw]

Thanks for the clarification, Neuronix. Maybe I should ask this on the MD forums, but since I'll be applying and aiming mainly toward MD-only next year (just to make sure I end up somewhere), would you say it would actually be better maybe to work full-time for a community service or something rather than spend another year in the lab?

Separate Q: if I do the research thing, how should I proceed with that? I talked to a tech who said that you have to apply to the school through Human Resources, that it took him about 6 months to get through the whole process even though he already knew the PI personally and was assured that he'd be working in the lab. Is this only if I want to get paid? If I don't mind not being paid (and I don't mind, though at least housing would be amazing, and obviously it would be amazing if I was paid), I would just call up the PI and say, 'hey, I'm __, I have this lab experience, applying to enter med school in a year, love your research, can I get a project to work on for a year?' Then at the end of the convo/personal-interview followup, ask for monetary?

ditto, i haven't applied yet (MD/PhD), but i'm taking a year off and want to do research at a university. what's the best way to ask about monetary compensation?

 

[njh219]

I have a question regarding what neuronix mentioned about stagnant residency spots. If someone were to go and get a MD/PhD (8 year commitment) instead of an MD (4 year commitment), how much more competitive do you think the match for competitive specialties will become in those intervening 4 years?
Is it something to consider, or kinda nonsense?

 

[RxnMan]

I have a question regarding what neuronix mentioned about stagnant residency spots. If someone were to go and get a MD/PhD (8 year commitment) instead of an MD (4 year commitment), how much more competitive do you think the match for competitive specialties will become in those intervening 4 years?
Is it something to consider, or kinda nonsense?

The PhD has shown itself to mildly increase your chances of a residency spot at best. Program directors still choose future residents based upon features that predict future success (grades, USMLE). I would hate to spend 4-5 years on a project for such a small effect size.

 

[Neuronix]

I have a question regarding what neuronix mentioned about stagnant residency spots. If someone were to go and get a MD/PhD (8 year commitment) instead of an MD (4 year commitment), how much more competitive do you think the match for competitive specialties will become in those intervening 4 years?
Is it something to consider, or kinda nonsense?

It is something to consider. But my crystal ball isn't good enough to say how you should hedge your bet. In the end, do MD/PhD because you want to do it. Don't do it because you think it'll get you a better residency. It might. But it might not.