MD/PhD salary

[dl2dp2]

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Bottom line: Don't sign up for an MSTP unless you are 100% certain that you want to have (at least in part) a lab-based career. 'Nuff said.

I'm not sure this is sound advice. I personally think that if you are "devious" enough, you can totally use MD/PhD as a stepping stone to a highly lucrative career in a high-paying specialty. This is esp. true for radiology, rad onc, optho and possibly derm. Subspecialty surgery i hear don't care about the PhD as much.

Suppose I'm a regular med student but have an eye for derm/rad onc, but don't have the confidence that I'll do phenomenonal on boards/third year, doing a PhD is NOT a bad idea at all. Considering that everyone who matches into Derm does a Doris Duke/research year ANYWAY, you are just spending 2.5 more yrs earning for a much increased chance at a really competitive specialty. Just be sure that...

(1) Your story is credible.
(2) Your research is derm related.

Finally, I just want to point out that roughly 40% of MSTP graduates from the largest program in the country eventually do MOSTLY medical practice. Over 20% end up in 100% private practice positions. You most CERTAINLY do not need to be 100% committed to a research career to go for MSTP. Such expectation does not exist and isn't necessarily healthy.

 

[Gfunk6]

Sluox, though we haven't always seen eye to eye I really have to give you credit for the brutal honesty in your post. You posted, I think, what many of us (myself included) were thinking but were afraid to type.

Still, from my perspective, I'm not sure that the extra 3 years of mental trauma was worth it when I could have just done a one year DD/HHMI fellowship instead.

I have to admit that many of us (again myself included) were incredibly "gung ho" about the whole research thing to start. But over the course of 8+ years we feel burn-out, regret, anguish, and deep cynicism that threatens to derail our proposed career path. After going through it all I certainly don't blame anyone for bailing out to PP.

However, I've yet to meet someone who started knowing full well they were using the PhD merely as a spring board to a lucrative PP career. Frankly I would be afraid to meet someone who was so devious and calculating.

In the end, I still stand my recommendation that if you don't want a lab-based career I would not suggest an MSTP. However, your points are valid and well-taken.

 

[Vader]

I'm not sure this is sound advice. I personally think that if you are "devious" enough, you can totally use MD/PhD as a stepping stone to a highly lucrative career in a high-paying specialty.

Just be sure that...

(1) Your story is credible.
(2) Your research is derm related.

Not sure that the devious among us really require this advice... 😉

 

[MDPhDNA]

Hi All,

I'm new to the forum and currently applying to MD/PhD programs in hopes of going into molecular and clinical genetics. I am primarily interested in research, though I am intrigued by clinical work. I am very willing to put in the hours (currently work 60+ in lab on average, though I have put in 80+ hour weeks recently), I do like the idea of going to medical school for "free", and I truly love being a student, so putting in the extra years really doesn't phase me. I have gotten the chance to speak to several MD/PhDs in genetics and immunology, but clearly it would be impolite to ask them about pay scale. I have always assumed that the MD/PhD would make me more competitive in a field that is quite research-based, but I am most certainly no expert and I was wondering if any of you had an opinion on this. Before I commit to a program, I want to be well-versed in what it is I'm getting myself into, and more so what I will be getting out of it in the future, and earning potential as well as job opportunities are two things I've thought little about. Thus far, all I've gathered is that I really enjoy building transgenic mice, writing papers, getting published, and spending hours on end in one spot hoping for some sign of success 😀. Beyond that, I know I want to primarily focus on autoimmune disease and work clinically in a field that - once I am an attending - I run a very low risk of being paged when I'm not at the hospital (I haven't heard of anyone's DNA breaking overnight, but hey, you never know ). I apologize if this question is answered by figures and advice already given, but I didn't know if a specific, less common specialty makes any difference.

 

[GliaGirl]

What is your question?

 

[britishmafia]

Hi All,

"WORDS"

- You will be much more competitive as both a physician and as a scientist if your training is well-integrated.

- There really is no net pay increase. If you're looking for money, you are much better off going straight MD and paying off loans quickly during/after residency. The tuition waiver and stipend is there because research pays a lot less than the clinic (this is a generality, and I know there are exceptions).

- Don't idealize too much; chances are that you'll change your specialty and that you might not even become the 80/20 model the NIH loves to advertise. Focus more on the quality of training of the MD/PhD. Personally, I found this as my intended path because I equally love the clinical and graduate training pathways, and I also love the integration that MSTPs may offer - thus enhancing both.

- Again, don't do it for the money.

 

[Zrchrn]

The issues discussed in this thread are valid, I just thought I'd add to it in case other people are interested in this information later on.

If you are doing an MD+PhD then you are interested in things like Academia and Research. Don't do it because you like the title or think it'll improve your income. That said, a lot of Universities compensate people with MDs much better than people with PhDs. This is true of a lot of professional degrees. For example I don't think anyone at the College of Medicine in my univeristy that has an MD makes less that 170k and many make 250-400k+. Often times I think the compensation is similar to what they would make working at a teaching hospital and is based on achievements/expertise as well. (Now it could be that all of them also work at the hospital itself too. Which would be great as it would satisfy both clinical and research interests).

In some specialites (I know this to be the case for Neuro Surgery) having and MD+PhD will help you match.


A lot of people here say, don't do an MD+PhD for the money. I say don't do anything medical (esp. the degrees that take longer time to obtain/are more demanding) for the money. It's not worth it. You spend years of hard training. You work 70+ hours a week for 5+ years. There's no guarantee you'll work much less than that afterward. The "best years of your life" are essentially wasted if you spent them working hard on something you don't enjoy.

The best way to find out if you'll like this is to volunteer/shadow people doing research. Make sure you go to multiple labs, not just one person. Good luck!


Disclaimer: A lot of my "insight" if you will, comes from talking to my friends who are MDs/PhDs as well as my research/interest in a doing PharmD PhD program. While the later is not exactly the same as an MD+PhD deciding to go forward with the training has similar implications.

 

[gbwillner]

For example I don't think anyone at the College of Medicine in my univeristy that has an MD makes less that 170k and many make 250-400k+. Often times I think the compensation is similar to what they would make working at a teaching hospital and is based on achievements/expertise as well. (Now it could be that all of them also work at the hospital itself too. Which would be great as it would satisfy both clinical and research interests).

Hahahah ..... unless you work at gold-brick-in the bum university, those numbers are highly suspect. Academic attendings in medicine start at about 100-120K. Some places it's less. I heard of a guy who took an attending spot in a good program in pulmonology, and had to take a paycut from his fellowship salary. Peds? Even less- starting is about 80K, even in PP.

I don't disagree with your notion though- doing an MD/PhD for prestige or money is a terrible idea. Do it if you love science. If you become disillusioned later on (many of us do) that OK, I guess, but in many ways you've failed in your career path and wasted a lot of time.

When I finished my MD/PhD, I was debt free and even had a home, since I was in a cheap part of the country. However, my friends who were finishing residency in well-paid specialties (and had a student loan debt) were signing contracts worth MUCH more than what I had, even with my house. They were buying real houses, not condos, and flying to vegas for the weekend.

 

[Zrchrn]

Hahahah ..... unless you work at gold-brick-in the bum university, those numbers are highly suspect. Academic attendings in medicine start at about 100-120K. Some places it's less. I heard of a guy who took an attending spot in a good program in pulmonology, and had to take a paycut from his fellowship salary. Peds? Even less- starting is about 80K, even in PP.

I don't disagree with your notion though- doing an MD/PhD for prestige or money is a terrible idea. Do it if you love science. If you become disillusioned later on (many of us do) that OK, I guess, but in many ways you've failed in your career path and wasted a lot of time.

When I finished my MD/PhD, I was debt free and even had a home, since I was in a cheap part of the country. However, my friends who were finishing residency in well-paid specialties (and had a student loan debt) were signing contracts worth MUCH more than what I had, even with my house. They were buying real houses, not condos, and flying to vegas for the weekend.

You maybe right, but at my University there certainly are people making that much. It maybe that they are top researchers. I'm not quite sure. Salary data for public Universities is public information and that's how I found out, not via word of mouth. (I go to the University of Florida). Your right though the majority make between 90 and 140. But there are plenty who make more. I'm not sure what the circumstances surrounding them are though, but it is possible!🙂
Edit: More importantly, they are not poor by any stretch! They are living great lives.

 

[flexyourmind]

Sloux and Gfunk in post #'s 51 & 52, respectively, have the right idea regarding this issue. I believe everybody making these definitive statements, about what salary will be for an MSTP grad, are limited thinkers. Having the PhD and the years of experience that come with it benefit an individual with options of salary potentials. It is possible to practice clinically as well as participate in secondary salary opportunities, which will definitely increase salary potential. I'm not going to go into the details because this is my motive, but my idea is that the MD/PhD opens doors of opportunity and options. Options that most people haven't thought of or ones that do not currently exist.

 

[Neuronix]

It is possible to practice clinically as well as participate in secondary salary opportunities, which will definitely increase salary potential. I'm not going to go into the details because this is my motive, but my idea is that the MD/PhD opens doors of opportunity and options. Options that most people haven't thought of or ones that do not currently exist.

I have no idea what you're talking about. As I get through residency I'm looking at job opportunities. Industry and academics (particularly with a significant research component) both pay much less than private practice. Even if you go into academics and collaborate with industry on the side--that relationship is tightly regulated. You could hope to make a few thousand or even ten-thousand here and there, but that's it. The difference between associate professor and private practice partner is on the order of 2-3 fold different (hundreds of thousands in my field).

If you make it to a very high level position within academics, industry, or you make an invention and profit significantly off that, you could make private practice level money. But that's very uncommon.

 

[mynameistoolong]

Does anybody has any info about Md/PhD salaries?How do they work?

F—ing MD/PhD salaries, how do they work?

 

[gutonc]

F—ing MD/PhD salaries, how do they work?

Unlike magnets, they work very, very poorly.

 

[phonyreal98]

F—ing MD/PhD salaries, how do they work?

Yes.


I don't want to talk to a physician-scientist
Yall mothaf---ers lyin and gettin me p--sed!

 

[Fencer]

Come on guys... There is no unemployment for MD/PhD graduates. Academic salaries for Assistant Professors doing 75/25 would start at around $120 - 160 depending upon clinical specialty, and eventually climb up. Look at several post describing DATA (i.e. AAMC median salaries that I have posted over the years).

 

[Sephiroth]

So I was looking up the salary data at my med school (from 2010), particularly in the RadOnc dept, and was pretty surprised by how low a lot of these numbers are. There are MDs making well under 70k. I see some Clinical Associate Professors making in the 30's. Is this really all they are being paid, or is this just what they are paid from their research and instruction, and they have a separate income from clinical stuff? Because I could understand a Clinical Associate professor being paid 30k for his/her work teaching students on rotations or something while having a much larger income from his/her actual clinical work, but 30-something k being the entire income seems absurd, considering they're not in a post-doc.

 

[uniqenam]

So I was looking up the salary data at my med school (from 2010), particularly in the RadOnc dept, and was pretty surprised by how low a lot of these numbers are. There are MDs making well under 70k. I see some Clinical Associate Professors making in the 30's. Is this really all they are being paid, or is this just what they are paid from their research and instruction, and they have a separate income from clinical stuff? Because I could understand a Clinical Associate professor being paid 30k for his/her work teaching students on rotations or something while having a much larger income from his/her actual clinical work, but 30-something k being the entire income seems absurd, considering they're not in a post-doc.

I'm curious about this as well. I know for sure that some salaries aren't really properly reported for PS in academia, as I knew one associate prof PS that had a university-paid salary of like 200-some K, but then was also pulling another 150ish at the local VA that he was somehow contracted to do clinical stuff at through the university...so just looking at the university-reported numbers, he was making half as much as he actually was.

 

[gbwillner]

Good questions, guys.
In reality, the academic payscale is difficult to fully grasp and varies tremendously based on institution, supporting health-care organization, location, and specialty type. Also, no one seems to want to be straight with you when you ask them directly and few are willing to tell you their actual salaries.

The reasons the numbers seem all over the place?

Some academic physicians are doubly employed- in part by the university (which provides the numbers you may see on-line if it is a public institution), but also employed by the health care organization that bills for the services the render. So perhaps University of State X pays the doc $60K (like all other professors), but University Healthcare Org. pays them an additional $120K that is not on those books. Furthermore, depending on how they operate, they may pay bonuses depending on the yearly profits, since these are often (but not always) non-profit institutions they must use up all revenues by the end of the year. This can be anywhere from $500 to $20K+/ year. Neither of these two salary streams are typically listed in public information sources.

Salaries also vary by location. Medicare reimbursement is different in different regions based on cost-of-living adjustments. But in reality, institutions in the midwest, south, and Texas just pay more than the coasts. There is also a difference in terms of quality of institution- some top-tier places pay less, because they can.

The academic ladder is also very long. $70-80K seems like nothing, but this is in fact the starting salary at the instructor professor at many "top" academic institutions. There are more like "temp" academic jobs- given to those clinicians who either want a private job and need a few more months to land one, or research types who want to focus on research and not bring in much clinical revenue. People rarely keep these positions for more than a year before they either leave or get promoted to Asst. Prof- typically roughly 1.5-2x the salary, depending on specialty and location.

Lastly, as you know different specialties pay vastly different sums for a variety of reasons.

 

[Toothpick99]

Ehh...well the thing is I'm also graduating this semester with a Masters in Chemical Engineering. It's a purely research masters. I had to take like 3 classes this entire program.

I actually got a freakin patent out of it too!!

I know how research is like...

ehh i dunno!!...I'm 23 years old...I feel like maybe if I was 21 it would be different...I wish I wasn't accepted to have this choice!!!


Hoomsy

Hi Hoomsy,

This is such a coincident. I graduated last year with my master in chemical engineering. I'm currently working in a chemistry lab, but I'm thinking of going back to school with the PhD-MD program. I'm very interested in cardiology. I'm wondering if you chose the PhD-MD back then or just the MD? And if you chose PhD-MD, do you like the program?
I like doing research, but I also know how depressing it can be if your research got stuck. I'm already 30, by the time I'm finished with that dual program, I'll probably be in my 40s... So I kinda want to know others experience before deciding to go for it.

Thanks,

 

[HamiltonPineapples]

Hi Hoomsy,

This is such a coincident. I graduated last year with my master in chemical engineering. I'm currently working in a chemistry lab, but I'm thinking of going back to school with the PhD-MD program. I'm very interested in cardiology. I'm wondering if you chose the PhD-MD back then or just the MD? And if you chose PhD-MD, do you like the program?
I like doing research, but I also know how depressing it can be if your research got stuck. I'm already 30, by the time I'm finished with that dual program, I'll probably be in my 40s... So I kinda want to know others experience before deciding to go for it.

Thanks,

This thread is really old FYI. Someone may come along to give you advice, but you may be better off making a new thread with more details and specific questions.