MD/PhD Stereotypes

[MdPhDtomo]

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Some interesting (and nerdy) summer storytelling...
When I was an undergraduate and a heavy science nerd, I would hear stories of the premeds applying MD/PhD. I remember some snippets of conversations from long ago:

(from my friend who would later go on into WUSTL MSTP)
"Dude, I would not apply MD/PhD. I hear it is ridiculously hard. There was one guy who had a 4.0 and a 40 on his MCAT and he didn't get into one MD/PhD."

(from another who would later go on into Indiana MSTP)
"They're like geniuses or something. How the heck do you do an MD and a PhD at the same time?" (I guess he's finding out now)

Of course, through the years, the sanguine halo surrounding MD/PhDs has also been agitated and torn. I worked in a laboratory this past year, and the snippets had now turned to:

(from a graduate student)
"Is the PhD even a legitimate PhD?" [After I was accepted into an MD/PhD, this graduate student would continue to "assume" I was only going for medical school]

(from another graduate student)
"I hear you just need to get straight B's in med school from now on and you're set." (in a less-than-complimentary tone)

And of course, the winner of them all, the one that immediate shoots out the mouths of my peers' [competitive] mothers when they hear of my impending matriculation into academia:
"You'll be in school for such a long time!" (followed by a very pitying look, which contrasted heavily with my own family members' sanctified 'I-now-have-a-double-doc-in-the-family' look)

Wow. The responses have spanned the spectrum. So guys, I welcome you all to share your experiences/anecdotes from friends/family/peers/professors/MDs/PhDs regarding the MD/PhD Stereotype.

 

[geeyouknit]

Idk if "you're going to be in school for a very long time" is a stereotype. It's true, right?

 

[Choculitis]

Lol, grad students...

 

[soundnin]

i've had many people tell me the whole "the phd isn't a real phd" thing, ranging from premeds to grad students. the line of reasoning is that if a md takes 4 years and a phd takes 6ish, and a md/phd takes 8ish, the phd must not be legit.

 

[Lil Mick]

I could see how graduate students wouldn't like people finishing the PhD in less time than they finish, but, if you're in a non-biomedical field for the PhD, it's just as much coursework and research as PhD students (my program waives some classes for biomedical MD/PhD students), if not more. Without an MS, math will actually take longer than usual.

As for the "it-takes-longer," it does take longer, but a short residency vs. a long residency (like neurosurgery) makes up for some of that with better, more flexible hours 🙂 My classmates are also confused as to why researchers would get an MD if they don't plan on practicing full-time...

As for undergrad, no students or pre-med advisors at mine had ever heard of an MD/PhD program. I had to find out when I was applying with the help of my PI, though my pre-med advisor thought the 40 and 4.0 were necessary to get into an MD school😱

 

[soundnin]

I could see how graduate students wouldn't like people finishing the PhD in less time than they finish...

yeah a lot of it is just the haters not understanding how it works. a lot of people don't realize a lot of coursework is waived due to MS1 and 2or that md/phd students do lab rotations starting the summer before med school even starts. so this saves a lot of time.

one particularly stubborn grad student, even after explaining a few points to her, said "well, i hear that md/phd students are given ready-to-publish projects just so they can get them graduated faster, so they never really learn any science" to which i replied "i can't say that's not true for some people, but then it's only as equally true as it is for straight phd students". she didn't argue anymore.

 

[Lil Mick]

That is awesome. A lot of our biology PhD students are given those types of projects, not just MD/PhD students--not to mention those of us who are publishing and/or presenting posters on our research topic while we're in MS1 and MS2...

 

[Vikingwizardguy]

I was amazed by the number of haters in grad school...it was worse than what I went through in med school! Med students didn't seem to care (likely due to the thought of "i'll be done waaaay before you" in their minds) but PhD students go nuts. I was definitely ostracized and derided by my current classmates with rumors of me not being that smart...until of course I was the top student in the toughest neuro course at our program. That shut some mouths.

 

[delirium81]

I was amazed by the number of haters in grad school...it was worse than what I went through in med school! Med students didn't seem to care (likely due to the thought of "i'll be done waaaay before you" in their minds) but PhD students go nuts. I was definitely ostracized and derided by my current classmates with rumors of me not being that smart...until of course I was the top student in the toughest neuro course at our program. That shut some mouths.

I've encountered the same thing. I can't recall ever hearing any med-student-on-grad-student hate, mostly because I don't think grad students are even on their radar. But I've heard a lot of grad-student-on-med-student hate, and from people I know and like who end their rants with, "of course we don't mean you." This is mainly because the grad students I know have had extremely negative experiences working with either pre-med undergrads or med students who don't really care about research and are really just trying to check a box for an application. I get it, but the over-generalization is annoying to say the least.

 

[Neuronix]

I was amazed by the number of haters in grad school...

Same here, for all the reasons discussed in this thread.

 

[Jorje286]

There was a lot of hate in the lab I worked with towards MDs who do research too. PhD students tend to have a chip on their shoulder for obvious reasons (job security, social status..etc I'm reverse generalizing but still).

To be honest, as a med student, I question why medical graduates should receive the title of a "doctor". If I'm correct, the title is "bachelor of medicine and surgery" in the UK and Australia which is more apt. Med school is more like returning to kindergarten than developing expertise in a field. It's funny because I do think Ph.D earn the "doctor" title more than MDs but that's not how society looks on who's the "real doctor".(and I'm saying this as a med student)

 

[Vikingwizardguy]

I've encountered the same thing. I can't recall ever hearing any med-student-on-grad-student hate, mostly because I don't think grad students are even on their radar. But I've heard a lot of grad-student-on-med-student hate, and from people I know and like who end their rants with, "of course we don't mean you." This is mainly because the grad students I know have had extremely negative experiences working with either pre-med undergrads or med students who don't really care about research and are really just trying to check a box for an application. I get it, but the over-generalization is annoying to say the least.

This, I think that's the root of the issue and it builds from there. My undergrad seemed unique in that our PI turned several hardnose pre-meds onto research instead of off. In fact, we just had a summer with an amazing MD with research recognition student which is beyond rare. I do think that us MD-PhDs are changing the tide though. As the program grows, more PIs are seeing that we're different from "regular" MDs and pre-meds.

Though I'm not sure if PhDs will ever be happy that we, on average, win more grant money...

 

[Neuronix]

Though I'm not sure if PhDs will ever be happy that we, on average, win more grant money...

Please provide source for this claim.

 

[Vikingwizardguy]

very interesting point. Not sure if I entirely agree with you though. I think that the doctor label in medicine is mostly a historic thing. I always felt awkward calling PhDs "doctor" actually. I understand they are experts in their science but I felt that "professor" was a more proper label for them.

I would love to be called "doctor-professor" some day haha.

 

[Vikingwizardguy]

Please provide source for this claim.

I can't provide a hard source so do take that comment with a grain of salt. This was through discussions with MD-PhD interviewers.

 

[Neuronix]

I can't provide a hard source so do take that comment with a grain of salt. This was through discussions with MD-PhD interviewers.

See: http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/294/11/1343.full (particularly figure 2 and 3)
http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/297/22/2496.full (figure 1)
http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/291/7/836.full (table 2)

 

[PfNO22]

See: http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/294/11/1343.full (particularly figure 2 and 3)
http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/297/22/2496.full (figure 1)
http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/291/7/836.full (table 2)

These data suggest that the increased success in grant funding MD-PhDs had over MDs and PhDs has decreased over the past decade to the point where today little if any real difference exists in success in grant application.

 

[QofQuimica]

My experience, having done separate degrees, is that there is quite a bit of intellectual snobbery on both sides of the fence. PhD students are stereotyped as premeds who couldn't quite hack it to get into med school, and MD students are stereotyped as unintellectual with regard to learning and doing "real" science.

Ultimately, what matters is what kind of physician and researcher you become, regardless of which path you take to get there. Your research and clinical records will speak on your behalf much louder than you can speak for yourself. Also, you will always find people who can't be pleased no matter what you do, and you just have to accept that there isn't any point in making the effort to try to please them.

What would please me at this moment is having someone go get my laundry out of the dryer and fold it for me, but seeing as none of you is going to do this, I reckon I have to go get it myself. Happy Saturday, everyone. 🙂

 

[Jorje286]

Your research and clinical records will speak on your behalf much louder than you can speak for yourself.

And this is the bottom line. It's not doing a "real" phd that will make you shine as a scientist. It's your publication record, and in that sense everyone involved in the research field (MD, PhD, MD/PhD) is playing on the same field.

 

[PfNO22]

What would please me at this moment is having someone go get my laundry out of the dryer and fold it for me, but seeing as none of you is going to do this, I reckon I have to go get it myself.

Oh Q, you are such a weekend laundry intellectual snob. 👍

 

[lambda242]

obviously the solution to all of these issues is to socialize exclusively with other md-phds ... duh!

 

[markglt]

lambda242: obviously the solution to all of these issues is to socialize exclusively with other md-phds ... duh!

 

[ChemMed]

My experience, having done separate degrees, is that there is quite a bit of intellectual snobbery on both sides of the fence. PhD students are stereotyped as premeds who couldn't quite hack it to get into med school, and MD students are stereotyped as unintellectual with regard to learning and doing "real" science.

Ultimately, what matters is what kind of physician and researcher you become, regardless of which path you take to get there. Your research and clinical records will speak on your behalf much louder than you can speak for yourself. Also, you will always find people who can't be pleased no matter what you do, and you just have to accept that there isn't any point in making the effort to try to please them.

What would please me at this moment is having someone go get my laundry out of the dryer and fold it for me, but seeing as none of you is going to do this, I reckon I have to go get it myself. Happy Saturday, everyone. 🙂

👍👍👍

Ah, the separate degrees how it hurts a little on the inside, now I am beginning to understand both sides of the fence.

My conclusion......I'd rather spend my time listening to the guy playing guitar down the street as he practices with his musician buddies who have been in a band for over a decade. Seriously awesome music.

 

[texasguy]

You'll get criticized by many graduate students, but just ignore it. Go to graduate school to learn how to think like a scientist, how to design and carry out well thought-out experiments, and learn the science you see yourself pursuiting in the future. Graduate students are often (not always) going to feel like they get the short end of the stick - your training will be shorter than theirs for the same exact degree and you will often have stronger support (both from the graduate school and the md/phd program because fact of the matter is that both your institution and your graduate program like highlighting the number of md/phds theyt rain). Not to mention the obvious, that your salary will often more than double your PhD counterparts. What they don't appreciate is how different (and rigorous) both your training and life will be always trying to balance science and medicine.

Your medical school classmates (professors, administrators etc), on the other hand, will all respect you for pursuing your research interests on top of your desire to practice clinical medicine. And like others have said, the other students in your md/phd program will often be your closest friends who understand what you're going through the best.

There's no way I would go back and change the training I've received in the md/phd program in any way! If you love the science and want to be a physician as well its a no-brainer - ignore those that criticise you and push forward!

 

[Lil Mick]

I have to say, I've encountered a lot more hostility from the MD side than the PhD side... I guess it just depends on where you are. Ditto on the MD/PhDs as closest associates/friends, though 🙂