MD vs. DO

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civ64

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I'm familiarizing myself with the DO degree after just a few mentions of it in pre-med settings. I love the idea that the focus is more on building a partnership with the patient. I have been a member of the Society of Participatory Medicine for years and have seen the benefits first-hand of patients and doctors working together and listening to each other closely. My only concern is that DO looks like the route for people who couldn't get into a MD program. In fact I know MDs who mock DOs, so I'm wondering if university opportunities would be more limited with a DO. And if the general connotation is that you couldn't cut it as a MD. Seems unfortunate if that is the case.
 
Only in the minds of ignorant pre-meds. Your argument is the same as saying "you couldn't get into Harvard, so you went to NYU".

civ64 said:
I'm familiarizing myself with the DO degree after just a few mentions of it in pre-med settings. I love the idea that the focus is more on building a partnership with the patient. I have been a member of the Society of Participatory Medicine for years and have seen the benefits first-hand of patients and doctors working together and listening to each other closely. My only concern is that DO looks like the route for people who couldn't get into a MD program. In fact I know MDs who mock DOs, so I'm wondering if university opportunities would be more limited with a DO. And if the general connotation is that you couldn't cut it as a MD. Seems unfortunate if that is the case.
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Fewer DOs are in research-heavy specialties --> fewer DOs at R1 research institutions. Plus, many DO schools are not particularly research-centric (limiting real research opportunities in medical school) and many osteo GME programs are not heavy into research. If you look carefully, however, you will find DOs all over the place.

If you want to do research, the DO degree in and of itself will not appreciably limit you.
 
civ64 said:
I'm familiarizing myself with the DO degree after just a few mentions of it in pre-med settings. I love the idea that the focus is more on building a partnership with the patient. I have been a member of the Society of Participatory Medicine for years and have seen the benefits first-hand of patients and doctors working together and listening to each other closely. My only concern is that DO looks like the route for people who couldn't get into a MD program. In fact I know MDs who mock DOs, so I'm wondering if university opportunities would be more limited with a DO. And if the general connotation is that you couldn't cut it as a MD. Seems unfortunate if that is the case.
Click to expand...

I know people who hate others solely based on their race... does that indeed make the other race inferior?


Some ACGME residency programs will not interview DOs based on them having a DO.
Some ACGME residency programs will not interview MDs based on a multitude of other qualifications.


At the end of the day, DOs are qualified to work in any medical hospital in the USA
 
I know right @BrCo how many times does this have to be asked for it to be properly answered?
 
The holistic, patient centered stuff you hear about DOs is all BS. It's just advertising. An empty pitch. Talking points to try and sell an inferior product. Holistic and patient centered is how EVERYONE teaches the practice of medicine nowadays.

Goro said:
Only in the minds of ignorant pre-meds. Your argument is the same as saying "you couldn't get into Harvard, so you went to NYU".
Click to expand...

Note this guy is a DO adcom who is just trying to sell his product. He's been posting a version of this sales pitch every chance he gets. It works great on premeds but of course is a completely ridiculous statement. The difference is when you go to NYU all residency doors are still wide open. If you work hard enough you can land anywhere. If you go DO there are tons of doors that are essentially sealed shut...ACGME residencies of whole specialties (plastics, derm, ent, urology, ortho) and competitive programs in popular specialties (IM, peds, radiology). Also people like this guy try to compare the best DO student in the country to your average or below-average US MD student trying to claim match results are comparable. In reality the a below average NYU student can easily land a mid-tier university IM residency in a desirable location for example while a similar below average DO student would end up at some tiny community program in the middle of nowhere that refers every interesting/educational case to the local/regional university program.
 
MeatTornado said:
The holistic, patient centered stuff you hear about DOs is all BS. It's just advertising. An empty pitch. Talking points to try and sell an inferior product. Holistic and patient centered is how EVERYONE teaches the practice of medicine nowadays.



Note this guy is a DO adcom who is just trying to sell his product. He's been posting a version of this sales pitch every chance he gets. It works great on premeds but of course is a completely ridiculous statement. The difference is when you go to NYU all residency doors are still wide open. If you work hard enough you can land anywhere. If you go DO there are tons of doors that are essentially sealed shut...ACGME residencies of whole specialties (plastics, derm, ent, urology, ortho) and competitive programs in popular specialties (IM, peds, radiology). Also people like this guy try to compare the best DO student in the country to your average or below-average US MD student trying to claim match results are comparable. In reality the a below average NYU student can easily land a mid-tier university IM residency in a desirable location for example while a similar below average DO student would end up at some tiny community program in the middle of nowhere that refers every interesting/educational case to the local/regional university program.
Click to expand...

Wow, you just opened a huge can of worms....
 
Okay, let's do this!!!! Leeeeeeroooy Jenkins!

*ahem* So, to summarize the view of those who believe in the "People are not petty and have never gone to war/enslavement on petty differences" version of history:
  • MDs never make fun of DOs, ever. This is a lie propagated by ignorant people.
  • The public doesn't care about MDs vs DOs, and those that do, including ignorant people, are no longer considered people so as to keep this statement true
  • Residencies are harder, but this difference does not constitute a difference because you can get in if you really really try and break new (but not different) ground
  • Medicine should continue to make distinctions and separations that are equal, because if you're not, you aren't thinking of the patient anymore
  • Any factual, statistical difference is not a difference worth mentioning. Shut up, lalala, I can't hear you
OP, if you aren't doing a competitive residency in the US, MD or DO are indistinguishable. Same if you expect lots of funding.
 
there ARE some ACGME residencies that will not accept DO applications.
 
Look what you've done OP.

Here+we+go+Jim+Carey.jpg
 
MeatTornado said:
If you go DO there are tons of doors that are essentially sealed shut...ACGME residencies of whole specialties (plastics, derm, ent, urology, ortho) and competitive programs in popular specialties (IM, peds, radiology).
Click to expand...

This is a fair disclaimer and factually based on residency program director surveys and match results. There is no argument to be made here.

To the OP, you would get more useful answers asking this question in the osteopathic medical student section of the forum, albeit phrased differently. In addition, do a search and read through the countless threads on the topic. Disregard anything a pre-medical student says, especially in the pre-allo forums. They know absolutely nothing about career options as a DO aside from what they read here and re-word.

For the average medical student wanting to do private practice or a standard hospital gig, there's not a meaningful difference. As noted above, there is a big disproportion when you're looking at academic programs and competitive ACGME residencies. There are also an incredibly low proportion of MD students landing these spots so it's not like if you show up at an average MD school and graduate you're going to land ortho at Pitt (the door is at least present and open though). However, there are AOA residencies in those specialties and I think it is only fair to note that. You can be an ortho surgeon as a DO you just won't be ACGME trained, but that is a moot point after the accreditation merger (tier/prestige will still matter for some jobs/fellowships).

MeatTornado said:
In reality the a below average NYU student can easily land a mid-tier university IM residency in a desirable location for example while a similar below average DO student would end up at some tiny community program
Click to expand...

This is also worth noting. If you're a top DO student you can land ACGME university programs in most specialties and AOA programs in the surgical subspecialties. Being a below average DO student would be incredibly frightening if you wanted to do something other than primary care, become a surgeon, or have a research career.

Regarding research, it is very possible to do research as a DO medical student and resident. I am publishing 5 papers in 2014, more than most MD students at top programs. However, I would never be granted a residency position or job at the places I do that research at (fellowship possibly). I'm talking zero precent chance. It is something to consider if you absolutely want to be in academia. It is very, very important to realize that academic prestige doesn't mean everything if you don't want that career and if you do want to work in a smaller community hospital. Different people want different things and although I am publishing frequently now, I would rather not be a physician than do academic medicine for a career so that variable is of no concern.

I don't always respect meattornados tone and often not his message, but there are some things to legitimately consider and although presented in an antagonistic tone here, are factual. These things should be individually weighted based on career and lifestyle goals. There are excellent education and career options for DO students that put the work in. However, it is important to realistically weigh some limitations which may or may not be important to you.

These conversations are a joke on SDN, do yourself a favor and PM DO students to get accurate responses. Goro is an invaluable resource on this site for many students, especially those applying DO.
 
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type12 said:
Okay, let's do this!!!! Leeeeeeroooy Jenkins!

*ahem* So, to summarize the view of those who believe in the "People are not petty and have never gone to war/enslavement on petty differences" version of history:
  • MDs never make fun of DOs, ever. This is a lie propagated by ignorant people.
  • The public doesn't care about MDs vs DOs, and those that do, including ignorant people, are no longer considered people so as to keep this statement true
  • Residencies are harder, but this difference does not constitute a difference because you can get in if you really really try and break new (but not different) ground
  • Medicine should continue to make distinctions and separations that are equal, because if you're not, you aren't thinking of the patient anymore
  • Any factual, statistical difference is not a difference worth mentioning. Shut up, lalala, I can't hear you
OP, if you aren't doing a competitive residency in the US, MD or DO are indistinguishable. Same if you expect lots of funding.
Click to expand...

Wow a good post from you. Good job.


MeatTornado said:
The holistic, patient centered stuff you hear about DOs is all BS. It's just advertising. An empty pitch. Talking points to try and sell an inferior product. Holistic and patient centered is how EVERYONE teaches the practice of medicine nowadays.



Note this guy is a DO adcom who is just trying to sell his product. He's been posting a version of this sales pitch every chance he gets. It works great on premeds but of course is a completely ridiculous statement. The difference is when you go to NYU all residency doors are still wide open. If you work hard enough you can land anywhere. If you go DO there are tons of doors that are essentially sealed shut...ACGME residencies of whole specialties (plastics, derm, ent, urology, ortho) and competitive programs in popular specialties (IM, peds, radiology). Also people like this guy try to compare the best DO student in the country to your average or below-average US MD student trying to claim match results are comparable. In reality the a below average NYU student can easily land a mid-tier university IM residency in a desirable location for example while a similar below average DO student would end up at some tiny community program in the middle of nowhere that refers every interesting/educational case to the local/regional university program.
Click to expand...

Goro is incredibly fair. He doesn't need to sell his product it sells itself.

BTW I know plenty of DO's in the specialties that you mentioned.
 
I never really got why Meat Tornado was so adamant with the DO hate. DOs still have better first time USMLE pass rates than physicians from any other country, so the education clearly isn't awful, especially considering the fact that we're taught to pass the COMLEX, which is substantially different than the USMLE. Did your girlfriend leave you for a DO or something, cause it almost seems personal MT.
 
Mad Jack said:
I never really got why Meat Tornado was so adamant with the DO hate. DOs still have better first time USMLE pass rates than physicians from any other country, so the education clearly isn't awful, especially considering the fact that we're taught to pass the COMLEX, which is substantially different than the USMLE. Did your girlfriend leave you for a DO or something, cause it almost seems personal MT.
Click to expand...
OOHBURNEasyA.gif
 
"In fact I know MDs who mock DOs"

There is too much of this in medicine. Unfortunately a number of people in medicine love hierarchy and are driven primarily by being at the "top" and generally find a way to separate others into above and below them, generally skewing it towards below them. I think this is a very crude way to look at the world and FWIW I don't know if I've ever met anyone with this personality that seems happy.

People with a DO degree will meet people that look down on it. MDs who go into primary care will be looked down on by some specialists and some specialists will look down on other specialists. To anyone reading this: don't live your life for that please.

There's a million threads on DO vs MD so just search.
 
As somebody who's applying to residency right now, the perceived "quality" of your medical school most definitely does matter. I'm not arguing either side, this is just how it works.
 
And of course I'll contribute to this thread with pm&r propaganda :laugh:
DO's consistently match into top physiatry programs such as UW, Kessler, Northwestern, and the combined Baylor/UT-Houston program.
 
MrChance2 said:
"In fact I know MDs who mock DOs"

There is too much of this in medicine. Unfortunately a number of people in medicine love hierarchy and are driven primarily by being at the "top" and generally find a way to separate others into above and below them, generally skewing it towards below them. I think this is a very crude way to look at the world and FWIW I don't know if I've ever met anyone with this personality that seems happy.

People with a DO degree will meet people that look down on it. MDs who go into primary care will be looked down on by some specialists and some specialists will look down on other specialists. To anyone reading this: don't live your life for that please.

There's a million threads on DO vs MD so just search.
Click to expand...

I don't really see that in my program. We have some DO attendings that are fantastic surgeons and we love operating with them.

If you want to know a group of physicians that everyone looks down upon, its the ED physicians. Everyone looks down upon them. Whether it's fair or not, we consistently think they are laziest and dumbest docs in the hospital, regardless if they are MD or DO. It's about the only thing surgery and medicine consistently agree upon.
 
I hate when people insist on posting misinformation either for personal/professional gain (ex: Goro), out of ignorance (pre-meds), or to satisfy their fragile egos. Just trying to balance it out with some reality. As i've said I have nothing against DOs it's just important to know what you're getting into before you make such an important career/life decision. I'm certainly not saying DO is a bad option...you'll become a fully licensed practicing and respected physician.... but make sure you know the limitations.
 
dbeast said:
As somebody who's applying to residency right now, the perceived "quality" of your medical school most definitely does matter. I'm not arguing either side, this is just how it works.
Click to expand...

How much does it really matter?
 
dbeast said:
As somebody who's applying to residency right now, the perceived "quality" of your medical school most definitely does matter. I'm not arguing either side, this is just how it works.
Click to expand...

Define quality. Are you referring to MD/DO or more about the med school someone comes from?
 
MeatTornado said:
I hate when people insist on posting misinformation either for personal/professional gain (ex: Goro), out of ignorance (pre-meds), or to satisfy their fragile egos. Just trying to balance it out with some reality. As i've said I have nothing against DOs it's just important to know what you're getting into before you make such an important career/life decision. I'm certainly not saying DO is a bad option...you'll become a fully licensed practicing and respected physician.... but make sure you know the limitations.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the input. Perhaps, in the future, you can address these issues in a more amiable manner.
 
I think this question is irrelevant if you want to become a physician. So what if you have different letters after your name?

FWIW, I know people say that DOs have a hard time getting into competitive specialties but I do know a surgeon in a very, very competitive specialty (guess what it is) who is an osteopath so it definitely can be done if you set your mind to it.

Addendum: if you want to go into research or academia, then yes, perception matters a great deal.
 
MeatTornado said:
I hate when people insist on posting misinformation either for personal/professional gain (ex: Goro), out of ignorance (pre-meds), or to satisfy their fragile egos. Just trying to balance it out with some reality. As i've said I have nothing against DOs it's just important to know what you're getting into before you make such an important career/life decision. I'm certainly not saying DO is a bad option...you'll become a fully licensed practicing and respected physician.... but make sure you know the limitations.
Click to expand...
Goro is a pretty reliable source of information. It's not like he gains anything personally or professionally by giving kids advice on how to get into med school lol. It's not like he's advertising for Goro's Super Awesome Admission Service, where he guarantees you'll get in if you pay him 500 bucks. He's giving out free professional advice on the internet.
 
MeatTornado said:
The holistic, patient centered stuff you hear about DOs is all BS. It's just advertising. An empty pitch. Talking points to try and sell an inferior product. Holistic and patient centered is how EVERYONE teaches the practice of medicine nowadays.



Note this guy is a DO adcom who is just trying to sell his product. He's been posting a version of this sales pitch every chance he gets. It works great on premeds but of course is a completely ridiculous statement. The difference is when you go to NYU all residency doors are still wide open. If you work hard enough you can land anywhere. If you go DO there are tons of doors that are essentially sealed shut...ACGME residencies of whole specialties (plastics, derm, ent, urology, ortho) and competitive programs in popular specialties (IM, peds, radiology). Also people like this guy try to compare the best DO student in the country to your average or below-average US MD student trying to claim match results are comparable. In reality the a below average NYU student can easily land a mid-tier university IM residency in a desirable location for example while a similar below average DO student would end up at some tiny community program in the middle of nowhere that refers every interesting/educational case to the local/regional university program.
Click to expand...
MeatTornado said:
I hate when people insist on posting misinformation either for personal/professional gain (ex: Goro), out of ignorance (pre-meds), or to satisfy their fragile egos. Just trying to balance it out with some reality. As i've said I have nothing against DOs it's just important to know what you're getting into before you make such an important career/life decision. I'm certainly not saying DO is a bad option...you'll become a fully licensed practicing and respected physician.... but make sure you know the limitations.
Click to expand...


This clown again? LOL
 
I just want to chime in that patients don't care whether their doctor is MD or DO. Also, some of the best physicians I've worked with as a scribe are DO's. Clearly, the quality of the physician is not based on MD/DO but rather things that actually matter, like bedside manner, appropriate and extensive medical knowledge and clinical skills, and strength of character.
 
I wonder how many DO vs. MD threads has SDN had since its beginning? Probably close to 1000
 
Thanks to all who posted helpful perspectives based on their experiences. I did search the forums before posting this thread as I know this is not a new question, but most earlier threads degenerated pretty quickly as this one seems to have too.
 
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Lol-And how did Einstein define insanity?!

But seriously, it is better to ask. As long as you make an informed decision when the time comes.
 
I worked as a scribe in a hospital with both DO and MD. None of the staff ever undermined the DO physician, matter of fact he was the senior attending physician (Da Boss). However there will always be paranoid individuals who think DO's are automatically labeled as inferior to MD's. A handful of patients were so paranoid they requested to see an MD resident instead of the Senior DO attending.
 
I can't tell a difference between the DOs and MDs I work with as a scribe. But there does seem to be a difference in certain residency/research prospects. If it's important to you then go for MD. Otherwise go wherever you feel like.
 
TheBatman said:
I worked as a scribe in a hospital with both DO and MD. None of the staff ever undermined the DO physician, matter of fact he was the senior attending physician (Da Boss). However there will always be paranoid individuals who think DO's are automatically labeled as inferior to MD's. A handful of patients were so paranoid they requested to see an MD resident instead of the Senior DO attending.
Click to expand...

Does this really happen? Tbh, I know it's the individuals ignorance, but I would feel like crap if I were that senior attending 🙁
 
jjtheairplane said:
Does this really happen? Tbh, I know it's the individuals ignorance, but I would feel like crap if I were that senior attending 🙁
Click to expand...

I've seen it happen a handful of times but remember the type of patient we're referring to. If they required open heart surgery, only Dr. Oz would be cutting open their chest. I can tell it bothered him, one time he put things in perspective for the patient. He said, "let me get this straight you're requesting to see a 3rd year resident whom I am supervising, rather than the Senior Attending who has almost four times the experience as him, only because of the two letters at the end of our names?" On to the next room we went.
 
DarknightX said:
I don't really see that in my program. We have some DO attendings that are fantastic surgeons and we love operating with them.



If you want to know a group of physicians that everyone looks down upon, its the ED physicians. Everyone looks down upon them. Whether it's fair or not, we consistently think they are laziest and dumbest docs in the hospital, regardless if they are MD or DO. It's about the only thing surgery and medicine consistently agree upon.
Click to expand...

I don't get it they're the front lines in emergencies. Why are they considered dumb and lazy?
 
Everybody knows MD graduates get BMWs alongside their md degrees. The only thing I've heard about DO's is that they only get Volkswagens.
 
TheBatman said:
I don't get it they're the front lines in emergencies. Why are they considered dumb and lazy?
Click to expand...
It is for a variety of reasons:

Generally speaking they aren't the "best" at anything. They have a very broad knowledge base, but consult other specialties very frequently. So they are often distributing work to the other specialist, leading to resentment by said specialties.

Emergency medicine is practiced very defensively (not their fault really). So surge and medicine are often called for very soft admissions. 32 yo male with mild htn and CP, EKG normal, troponin so negative.......admit for chest pain r/o. This is a bit of an extreme example, but it happens especially in community hospitals.

The last doctor is always the "smartest". Often admitted patients don't actually have the diagnosis you were told in the ED. Again this isn't usually their fault, but they have limited time to diagnose and dispo the patients.

Often the ED docs are pressured by admin to admit patient$. Again, not their fault. This leads to them rushing dispos and presenting patients as "sicker" than the are to get medicine to admit. I'm sure somebody here will be offended, but it absolutely happens.

I respect ED docs, it's really just the nature of their job. If you end up wanting to do emergency med, don't worry about other specialties opinions of you. I think most of the "hate" is overblown and more of a joke, but you absolutely will hear about the "dumb" ED docs all the time when on wards, surgery, cardiology, etc.
 
But I'm just a DO, so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.🙂
 
jjtheairplane said:
Does this really happen? Tbh, I know it's the individuals ignorance, but I would feel like crap if I were that senior attending 🙁
Click to expand...

This doesn't actually happen (maybe one time ever) I have seen so many DOs at practice. Never seen this.

Theafoni said:
Everybody knows MD graduates get BMWs alongside their md degrees. The only thing I've heard about DO's is that they only get Volkswagens.
Click to expand...

Vw>BMW
 
DubVille said:
It is for a variety of reasons:

Generally speaking they aren't the "best" at anything. They have a very broad knowledge base, but consult other specialties very frequently. So they are often distributing work to the other specialist, leading to resentment by said specialties.

Emergency medicine is practiced very defensively (not their fault really). So surge and medicine are often called for very soft admissions. 32 yo male with mild htn and CP, EKG normal, troponin so negative.......admit for chest pain r/o. This is a bit of an extreme example, but it happens especially in community hospitals.

The last doctor is always the "smartest". Often admitted patients don't actually have the diagnosis you were told in the ED. Again this isn't usually their fault, but they have limited time to diagnose and dispo the patients.

Often the ED docs are pressured by admin to admit patient$. Again, not their fault. This leads to them rushing dispos and presenting patients as "sicker" than the are to get medicine to admit. I'm sure somebody here will be offended, but it absolutely happens.

I respect ED docs, it's really just the nature of their job. If you end up wanting to do emergency med, don't worry about other specialties opinions of you. I think most of the "hate" is overblown and more of a joke, but you absolutely will hear about the "dumb" ED docs all the time when on wards, surgery, cardiology, etc.
Click to expand...

Isn't this changing though? Most ER residencies are transitioning to 4 years rather than the traditional 3 years. If you don't mind me asking what's is your specialty?
 
TheBatman said:
Isn't this changing though? Most ER residencies are transitioning to 4 years rather than the traditional 3 years. If you don't mind me asking what's is your specialty?
Click to expand...

If anything it is getting worse. Press Ganey scores and lightneing quick dispos mean that the ED docs are being pulled in various direction. Speed is everything and they are monotored on how long it takes to see the patient, order tests, admit vs d/c, etc. This leaves this less time to pour through old charts, etc. I've had COPD admissions for patients on less home O2, but the ED doctor didn't have time (or maybe jsut didnt care to look) to see they are on 4L at home. They wanted to admit for new O2 requirement. Another admit for patient with end starge renal and bad heart failure. He complained of 2 episodes NV, and doc thinks he may be dehydrated and gives 1 L bolus of sailine................ oops now patient is SOB, admit for iatrogenic heart failure, patient may need urgent dialysis because they dont make urine.

I am sure if the doctor had time to look at history he would've done a better job treating. All docs do stupid things at times, in the ED you won't have the luxury of fixing it yourself.

The new thing to get around the ACA's no pay policy for readmsissions is to set up 23 hour observation units for "iffy" admits. They will probably be managed by ED physicians, so it will be interesting to see where it goes. Some of these problems are alleviated by staying at large academic centers, most of the pressure on ED has nothing to do with their intelligence, etc. It's about money and politics. Adding a year of training probably wont change this.

I'm PM&R, so I only have an outsiders vision but these are things you will see as a student and resident.
 
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