Med school debt

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Despite all of the weeping and gnashing of teeth, I've never met an FP who couldn't pay off their loans. None of them are living in poverty, either. Go figure.

Fair enough, but I do believe it is probably prudent to point out that loan debt has ballooned in the past decade while incomes have not... and those entering the workforce today are facing a very different career outlook relative to those whose experience you are drawing from.

$300k in loans works out to 3-4k in monthly payments (10 year term); sure, you can do it -- but let us not pretend that it will be fun. By the time you figure in mortgage payments, kiddos, and a car payment to get to that job... but let's look at the bright side -- your 50's should be a little better. :laugh:

I believe the poster who said to try to minimize your loan debt is spot on.
 
Fair enough, but I do believe it is probably prudent to point out that loan debt has ballooned in the past decade while incomes have not... and those entering the workforce today are facing a very different career outlook relative to those whose experience you are drawing from.

I know plenty of new physicians, too.

FWIW, some of the new folks are earning nearly double what I did starting out, too. That was only a little over a decade ago.

I believe the poster who said to try to minimize your loan debt is spot on.

That's a no-brainer.
 
Unfortunately for the young and inexperienced the lure of "PRESTIGE!!!" wreaks havoc.

What does prestige have to do with this? Do you really think that most individuals go a quarter mil+ in debt for the sake of prestige? There are some, no doubt... but this is not the majority of the so-called "young and inexperienced." I would say however that most are willing to swim in the red for the sake of stability and relative job security while doing something that interests them. (Not many careers offer this prospect). That said, I do think the young and inexperienced may dig a bit too deep into Sallie-Mae's cookie jar without thinking much about future implications.

Most med students understand the fact that the "Golden" days of medicine ended sometime around the time Sam Malone threw in the towel. Most of the doom-n-gloom stories out there regarding finances are coming from attendings who either had a taste of the good times, had expectations of such, and/or never struggled in the real world living pay-check to pay-check pulling in just enough loot to come out even, and all while doing so with the threats of lay-offs and the down-sizing pendulum swinging from above.

Talk about "I want... I want... I want... this car... that lifestyle, house, time, etc..." THAT is the talk of those inexperienced with real struggle.
 
It was a bit tongue in cheek. Though I do think that too many incoming students don't make the cost of their school their number one priority. Sometimes people go to a more expensive, higher "ranked" school because they think it will help them in the long run. This is anecdotal to my experiences only though.
 
...and that's the population we're addressing all too often. 😉

This is somewhat accurate. I can't come up with a figure, but I would definitely say a significant portion of the general population, medical people included, do not take into account the consequences of their financial decisions. I'm matriculating this fall and already some of my classmates are talking about how since they don't have a car, it frees up that portion of their financial aid to pay for other things like beer, new clothes, etc. Any urge for conservatism is met with, "Dude, it'll be fine. I'll just pay it off later." I mean, yes you'll pay it off later, but you'll be paying interest alongside, and you'll have other financial responsibilities (kids, spouse) then that will make the squeeze more painful than it would be now.

I mean, it's not like if you buy beer/clothes now, you'll be set for later on. 10 years later you'll probably still want those things, especially if you get a taste for them. Better to delay those extra steps on the hedonistic treadmill. But not a lot of people want to hear that, or maybe they can't, since everything else in our culture screams "You must have things NOW or you will DIE! GOD FORBID your peers get them before YOU!"
 
It's always easier to convince those with the least amount of experience and knowledge. Keep up the good work. 👍

Or maybe they just have the most open minds. 😉

Huh. Okay, GB, let's walk our way through this, shall we?

So you think that you can just walk right into any field of your choice, eh?

...

That places them at >95%ile for specialty -- quite an achievement, even more of a stretch to assume one can duplicate.

No, no one can just walk into being a MOHS surgeon, but that's not my point. Anesthesiology is of medium competitiveness. I did state in my post that you have to value the $$$ over geography. No anesthesiologist is gonna make that in NYC working 35 hours/wk, but if you move to the Midwest and work 60-70 hrs/wk, it's not that hard. The opportunity is there for the average medical student who wants to make big money above all other factors.

They did no such thing; your understanding of "usual, reasonable, and customary charges" could use a little brushing up.

My understanding is that Medicare sent out surveys to physicians and asked "What would you charge for x?", then paid the 75th percentile of responses to all physicians. They sent out surveys and updated their payment amounts annually which created sharp inflation for medical services. Slightly more nuanced than what I wrote, but still pretty similar. If you believe otherwise, send me a link, I'm open to reading.

Wow -- you have managed to roll a healthy dose of condescension and a sense lofty piety into one paragraph. Strong work, kid. :laugh: 👍

BTW -- you're punching above your weight when you try to tell those who have successfully navigated the system, played by the rules, worked their asses off, etc that they're FOS and your pocket calculator tells you that there's no problem servicing 300k loan payments on 12k / month income. IMO, you do those who would listen to you a great disservice... and that's before taking into consideration the trend lines of student debt accrual and physician income. Debt is a merciless master.

Look, I'm not asking for lower pay. I'm more than happy to get paid as much as possible. I'm not looking to be a pauper.

However, the average medical student can propel him/herself into the 99% of US incomes if that's their priority. So, I get a little sick of the chicken little attitude on SDN. The funny thing is that it's coming mostly from attendings in well-paying specialties.
 
So, I get a little sick of the chicken little attitude on SDN. The funny thing is that it's coming mostly from attendings in well-paying specialties.

Not surprising, really. Consider that it's the high achieving students who fret and obsess most about their grades. It's models who are most insecure about their appearance. Rich people, money. Dictators, power.

Possessing something of value naturally makes people more vigilant towards potential threats, real or not. It's the underbelly cost of clinging to something of value, especially if that something is precarious in nature.
 
I'm actually glad medstudent debt is going up now that I'm out of school because it puts an upward pressure on physician salaries. That being said I think these overly pessimistic loan pay back assessments are just that overly pessimistic. There are plenty of money making opportunities. I could be done with all my debt 186K less than 2 yrs out with what I have paid off and what I've made in the bank.
 
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I'm actually glad medstudent debt is going up now that I'm out of school because it puts an upward pressure on physician salaries.

The government is not going to raise medicare reimbursements because of high med student debt. In fact, they are trying to figure out how many physicians they can replace with cheap midlevels.
 
....


My understanding is that Medicare sent out surveys to physicians and asked "What would you charge for x?", then paid the 75th percentile of responses to all physicians. They sent out surveys and updated their payment amounts annually which created sharp inflation for medical services. Slightly more nuanced than what I wrote, but still pretty similar. If you believe otherwise, send me a link, I'm open to reading.

Not quite. The fees were based upon a preexisting system used by the blues; while the exact formula for determination was proprietary, it basically capped the fees at a percent of community based charges. The 75% figure you are using comes from MC setting their discounted rate at 75% of the preexisting prevailing charge. Medicare was a steeply discounted service from day one; remember, while it did add some percentage of people to the insured rolls, more than half of the elderly were already insured... thereby providing a large number with an immediate 25% coupon. This sudden drop in fees per unit work, combined with the increase in utilization within that cohort, led to a not unexpected -- indeed, predicted -- increase in the rate of physician fee inflation (almost doubled from 3-4% to 7-8% annually from what I recall) in order to maintain practice profitability and income.

Somehow Congress, in their infinite wisdom, thought that providers would take this on the chin for the greater good... and was fairly pissed off when they did not. This, taken in combination with the deluge of delayed care, resulted in cost overruns within the first few months of Medicare's existence (did you know that Part B premiums were initially supposed to cover 50% of the expenditures? Ha!), prompting HHS to come back to Congress hat in hand during the very first year and requiring a special session of Congress.

This went on for years... until the RBRVU system went into effect in the early 90's.



Look, I'm not asking for lower pay. I'm more than happy to get paid as much as possible. I'm not looking to be a pauper.

However, the average medical student can propel him/herself into the 99% of US incomes if that's their priority. So, I get a little sick of the chicken little attitude on SDN. The funny thing is that it's coming mostly from attendings in well-paying specialties.

I believe that you presume far too much -- it is not as easy to pull down $5-600k before taxes as you may think.

As a total aside, you will be well served in life if you nurture and develop the capacity to look around you, see who's doing what well, why and how they're doing it, learning from that, and incorporating their ways into your own. You will be even better served to learn who your friends are and who's fighting the right fight for you. Just some words of advice....


I'm actually glad medstudent debt is going up now that I'm out of school because it puts an upward pressure on physician salaries.

Question -- was that said with a straight face?
 
The government is not going to raise medicare reimbursements because of high med student debt. In fact, they are trying to figure out how many physicians they can replace with cheap midlevels.

:nod:

I'm of the opinion that they really don't care who's the provider, just the dollar expenditure.
 
The government is not going to raise medicare reimbursements because of high med student debt. In fact, they are trying to figure out how many physicians they can replace with cheap midlevels.

The reason there are physicians is because that's what it takes to get a reasonable quality. I've seen physicians I don't really trust much less midlevels. Dumb drives the world. There is alot of dumb out there. That's why there are so many hospitals and sick people because of dumb. Dumb is job security. Dumb is people that smoke until they can't breathe, drink until their liver doesn't work. Dumb is why a nurse held my patient's thyroid medicine today because the "thyroid level was in the critical range" after she saw a tsh of 25. Dumb is ever present and more dumbness is job security not a threat. As long as there are really sick people more dumb and not less dumb won't work to try to treat the dumb people
 
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