Medic to MD

[bookmedic]

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Here's some quick background.
I became an EMT after high school, worked for an EMT for a year and the went off to university in Canada (a very good University). I did alright, not great but ok. GPA in the high twos. The opportunity then came up for me to go medic school, one of the best - and as it happens, most expensive 🙁- in the country. I did really well, getting a GPA around 3.6 in A&P and EMS. The class is taken at a top ranked college and counts as two years of school. I now work as a medic at a major Boston hospital. I am planning on moving down to the DC/Maryland area to work as a medic on one of their fire departments. Now the tough part. I want to go to med school. I have seriously considered the Uniformed Services University, but I am leaving all options open. What are my chances? I'm a good medic, in a crazy hospital, I'm moving to one of the busiest EMS areas but my grades in my original university were pretty bad. I am for the most part, completely self educated, I read like crazy. In addition to all of that, I grew up overseas (mostly in Africa) and only moved to the states in 2001 and I'm still in my early 20s. I think when it comes to life and medical experience, I beat out most med school candidates.
What do my chances look like Doc?

 

[deleted6669]

a few thoughts to consider:
in addition to md also consider DO (doctor of osteopathic medicine). they have the same rights as an md and do the same residencies, etc but the admissions process tends to look favorably on older applicants and those with "life experience" in health care already. there are lots of emt-p turned DO folks out there.
your background would also make you a good applicant for a pa program so keep that in mind.
for pa info see www.aapa.org and www.physicianassistant.net
good luck whatever you decide-emedpa, em pa and former emt-p

 

[ScubaEMT]

You will probably either have to do some postbac work to raise that GPA or consider the DO schools. With your experience, you will definitely stand out from a lot of the other students, but a GPA below 3.0 pretty much makes it impossible to get into an allopathic school.

Also, make sure you do really well on your MCATs (do a prep course and make sure you are scoring >30 consistently on practice exams), and do a lot better in the rest of your undergrad.

Best of luck to you.

 

[efex101]

Agree, the number of applications are really going up and the applicants are getting better. You will have to really work on your GPA and do extremely well on the MCAT.

 

[146233]

The message to take home here is that it can be done. If you want to be a physician, then darn it, you're going to be a physician. It won't happen overnight, but put some elbow grease into it and make your training and discipline an asset. Do us proud. Good luck!

 

[ShyRem]

How exactly do your courses break out for your science and overall GPA? You say you had "high 2's" for unknown how long (I would assume not all 4 years since you're in your early 20s), and then a 3.6 for p-school. Did you finish a bachelor's degree?
And without an MCAT it is also difficult to say what your chances may be.

More information please?

 

[bookmedic]

I haven't finished my bachelors yet. My GPA ranged from 2.7-3.2 in the two years as an undergrad. I know I can do very well on the MCATS (at least 30 or better-perhaps that is more positive attitude than reality). I don't know how much this matters, but I also have good recommendations from top ER docs in Boston.
Perhaps this is unfair of me, but I see a lot of ER interns and residents and it baffles me how they got through med school. Some of them are fantastic, I have met residents (one or two) that I would trust with my life, but the vast majority scare the hell out of me-most of these are Ivy leaguers (and I say that coming from 5 generations of Ivy Leaguers). I know all I have to do is make it to the interview and I'm all set, but its making it there that is going to be my biggest challenge.
What are the thoughts of medical schools outside the states? Canada? Dare I suggest...the Islands?

 

[viostorm]

Your medic experiences means little in the application process.

GPA > 3.5 and MCAT > 30 will put you in a good position.

Also, be careful you have no ego or attitude about the process. We have had several instance of paramedics being rude and bad medical students because they think they know everything about medicine.

 

[bookmedic]

Why does medic experience mean so little? Surely someone who has some understanding of medicine is much more valuable than someone who doesn't?
I realize grades are important, but after talking to some ER attendings who were once Paramedics, they told me that med school was no harder than medic school. Which depending on your medic school, can be easy or hard.
So tell me, why does some student who can pull off a 4.0 GPA doing Bio and spent a summer lurking in some third world clinic or some other "life building experience" get more weight than someone who has had to balance someones life in their hands?
And I mean this all entirely respectfully. I'm not trying to come off as arrogant (though that can be one of my star qualities🙂) but think about things practically for a second. I have a friend, a very smart friend who goes to a good school and who is now applying to 20 medical schools across the country. He has never done anything in the medical field, he just thinks he wants to be a doctor. Fine. Congratulations. You and 10,000 other people. What makes you think you want to be a doctor? Do you know what its like to be on for 36 hours, with maybe an hour of sleep? To look at a patient, have no idea whats going on and then make your best judgment and stand by it? How does that person react under intense pressure (ie: Pediatric cardiac arrest with the whole family watching). Most paramedics have had to deal with all of these things, sometimes multiple times a day. Like all professions, there are good medics and bad ones. Some who want to understand the pathophysiology of everything and understand treatment; and others who know that V-Tach means go for the pink box. I would like to see less of the later, I think everyone would. But at least both of those candidates understand what medicine is all about, unlike your stellar college kid, who knows how to beat the tests in college.

 

[viostorm]

Why does medic experience mean so little?

Being a medic to a doctor is like being someone who cleans ambulances for the paramedics. If that person who cleans the ambulance wants to be a paramedic, will they make a better paramedic then someone who is smart, motivated, and intelligent? Regardless of the commitment to the profession, the job you end up doing is as a doctor nothing like being a paramedic. Multiple times when I was a paramedic I was called a "blue collar" worker and disrespected, so don't think I've not been there.

I agree commitment to medicine is awesome, but really your story is no more fantastic then many of the people in my class. There are people with PhD's, worked peace corp, spent years in military, been surgical RN's, have multiple patents.

Surely someone who has some understanding of medicine is much more valuable than someone who doesn't?

Absolutely not. Medical school trains people who don't know what end of the endotracheal tube goes up is into fantasic doctors. What you know beforehand has little to no bearing on what kind of doctor you end up being. All the time people who have no previous experience end up making great docs.

I realize grades are important, but after talking to some ER attendings who were once Paramedics, they told me that med school was no harder than medic school. Which depending on your medic school, can be easy or hard.

This is perhaps the most ridiculous statement I have heard. A 2 year associate degree target to people with a high school diploma is no where near what medical school requires. You are crazy to think this. I have never worked harder in my professional life.

I have pulled 72 hours straight on an ambulance and not been as tired as I was after 24 hours on my surgery rotation. The level of thinking/brain activity required to be a doctor is no where near the "autopilot" you can go into as a paramedic.

So tell me, why does some student who can pull off a 4.0 GPA doing Bio and spent a summer lurking in some third world clinic or some other "life building experience" get more weight than someone who has had to balance someones life in their hands?

Intelligent people can be trained to do anything. Scores are one mechanism of assessing intelligence. But I do agree, it kind of is annoying, because there is a lot of value in experiece and commitment.

Do you know what its like to be on for 36 hours, with maybe an hour of sleep? To look at a patient, have no idea whats going on and then make your best judgment and stand by it?

I agree, some people have a real eye opener 3rd year, myself included how difficult it is to be a doctor. But, the group is very intelligent and adapts to this very quickly.

How does that person react under intense pressure (ie: Pediatric cardiac arrest with the whole family watching).

You should realize not all doctors have to be in incredibly stressful situations, so it is not really a pre-requisite. The stress of a pedi arrest really doesn't compare with the stress as a physician, because the job is so much more complicated. The kid is most likely dead and there is little that can be done.

I'm not trying to discourage you, but perhaps you will understand what I'm getting at someday.

If you want to be a doctor, you have play the game of medicine, it is about doing well on tests now, not doing well on EMS calls.

The training does make some sense because you have to know the side effects of fluoroquinolones and why you don't prescribe tetracycline to kids when you are exhausted at 4am because someones life depends on your knowledge and medicine is a huge body of knowledge.

Get a 3.5 and a 30 on MCAT, don't bring the "entitlement" attitude with you. For every story I have heard like yours I've heard 3 in my class that were more fantastic. Prove you have the intelligence to be a doctor, do well on tests, get a good GPA, and show you can make the sacrifices required for a career in medicine.

 

[ShyRem]

No one can say what your chances are until you are closer to applying. But I would definitely lose the attitude. I went to p-school. I did a dual degree in three years in chem and math. I can tell you med school is a lot more work than my toughest undergrad semester which included advanced calc, pchem and biochem. You cannot comprehend the sheer volume of work involved in med school. I never cracked a book in pschool. Never studied outside of class. Never needed to. Med school, on the other hand, I have books upon books, more than are required. I study more for one class in med school than for all of p school combined.

The MCAT is no joke. A 30 is unattainable for many. Get a little closer to applying, get some real numbers on your applying GPA and let's see how your MCAT goes before anyone even begins to guess your chances.

 

[bookmedic]

I'm not sure how to respond to the last two posts. Partially they were helpful, and partially they were miscommunication with a tid bit of personal attack.

I agree, I am not the best candidate out there just because of past medical experience, yes, there are very qualified people (many far more than myself applying). However, what I take issue with is the idea that someone who has NO medical or life experience (growing up in the US, going overseas for a year and going to a good school doesn't count in my opinion) I think 22 year olds applying to med school are simply too inexperienced.
I plan to wait at least 3 or 4 more years before applying.
When I talk about the interns and residents I meet, I am merely taking knowledge from my pool (as the majority of posts are made up on this website by a minority of people- not a very large pool either).
This -depsite popular belief- is not a blue collar attack (trust me, I'm about as far from blue collar as one can get) on those unfair rich white kids who get it all. I was merely making the point that in my view- rightly or wrongly- some (many- but not all by any means) are not what I would define as intelligent. They are automnatons. They can roll out those numbers, but thats about as far as it goes- but get them to talk to a patient and get the patient to respond to them -not a chance. And that our society (adcoms) now views this as intelligence and this is what makes the hallmarks of a great doctor. It may make some great doctors in some areas, but not in my view, the majority.
I think this topic has strayed a little from what it was originally meant to be. I think I got all the advice I need (even the parts I didn't like but might actually be true).
Thanks All.

 

[deleted6669]

I'm not sure how to respond to the last two posts. Partially they were helpful, and partially they were miscommunication with a tid bit of personal attack.

I agree, I am not the best candidate out there just because of past medical experience, yes, there are very qualified people (many far more than myself applying). However, what I take issue with is the idea that someone who has NO medical or life experience (growing up in the US, going overseas for a year and going to a good school doesn't count in my opinion) I think 22 year olds applying to med school are simply too inexperienced.
I plan to wait at least 3 or 4 more years before applying.
When I talk about the interns and residents I meet, I am merely taking knowledge from my pool (as the majority of posts are made up on this website by a minority of people- not a very large pool either).
This -depsite popular belief- is not a blue collar attack (trust me, I'm about as far from blue collar as one can get) on those unfair rich white kids who get it all. I was merely making the point that in my view- rightly or wrongly- some (many- but not all by any means) are not what I would define as intelligent. They are automnatons. They can roll out those numbers, but thats about as far as it goes- but get them to talk to a patient and get the patient to respond to them -not a chance. And that our society (adcoms) now views this as intelligence and this is what makes the hallmarks of a great doctor. It may make some great doctors in some areas, but not in my view, the majority.
I think this topic has strayed a little from what it was originally meant to be. I think I got all the advice I need (even the parts I didn't like but might actually be true).
Thanks All.

dude, I feel your pain. as a emt/er tech/paramedic for 10 yrs and an emergency medicine pa for 11 years running a small emergency dept by myself I get no advantage applying to an md program either. they really want the 22 yr old 4.0/32+mcat and could care less about experience; life, medical, or otherwise. applying to a DO program you will get a little more respect for your life and medical experiences. you will not get transfer credit but you will have a leg up over the 22 yr old mentioned above. PA school would also be a good option for someone such as yourself as these programs are designed to build on prior medical experience. best of luck whatever you decide.

 

[efex101]

First of all, until you go through THE experience nobody will know how difficult anything is. Someone posted that a 22 yo old would be an immature candidate (I am paraphrasing). I have to disagree with this and I am in medical school. There are some non-trads that are NOT able to go through medical school and there are some 21 yo that are doing excellent. Please, do not make judgements about any age because once and if you get into medical school you will be sorrounded by younger folks.


Again to the OP, you will NEED the bottom line to get in...and that is a good solid GPA with an upward trend and an excellent MCAT score period. NOTHING will replace for those two...call it unfair or not but that is reality. Your experience as a medic will not hinder you but it will not give you any major leg up unless you have the numbers to go with your experience. Folks, there are just too many OUTSTANDING folks applying! take this to heart.

 

[Powder]

Med school kicked my butt. I was a medic for 5 years prior to going to med school. Some schools were interested in my experiances others looked at numbers. good luck. PGY3 EM resident