Medical school in Switzerland?

[fishzebra]

Looking for some advice regarding applying to medical school outside of the country.

I'm seriously looking into going to medical school in Switzerland (specifically at the University of Zurich) for a few reasons:

1. I probably want to live there as an adult so I'd like to establish my roots.
2. They generally treat students and residents far better and have a more relaxed system than the US medical education system. For example, residents work a maximum of 55 hours per week and are paid on average $90k in their first year (yes, Switzerland has a higher cost of living but this still translates to a very liveable wage).
3. Similar to 2, Swiss doctors are treated far better and have a better work-life balance (maximum 43 hours per week and mandatory retirement at 62).
4. Their medical system is one of the best internationally and is respected by many other countries such as the US.
5. Tuition is $1250/semester for non-Swiss citizens. Yeah.

It's relatively hard to get in as a US citizen (which I am), especially as one with no official ties to Switzerland, and would require me to jump through a bunch of hoops (language barriers for a while before learning swiss german, getting residency, not to mention relocating halfway across the world). So I'm just wondering if anyone has any advice/opinions, or if by any chance anyone has done this before.

Note: I'd be applying to the University of Zurich alongside 10-15 American MD schools in the upcoming 2019-2020 cycle.

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[SterlingMaloryArcher]

I wonder if it's easier

 

[fishzebra]

I wonder if it's easier

If you mean easier to get in, I definitely don't think so for a student coming from outside Switzerland. But if you mean easier once you get there, from what I understand the material is the same but it's more spread out (med school is 6 years instead of 4).

 

[Sagebrush]

Do you speak the language as well as a native speaker?

 

[fishzebra]

Do you speak the language as well as a native speaker?

Don't speak the language at all as of right now. However, classes are taught in English and speaking Swiss German is not a requirement for admission. So it would be a matter of learning the language as efficiently as possible if I decide to apply.

 

[Sagebrush]

Don't speak the language at all as of right now. However, classes are taught in English and speaking Swiss German is not a requirement for admission. So it would be a matter of learning the language as efficiently as possible if I decide to apply.

That seems.... interesting. I cannot imagine trying to educate a student in advanced material when they don't speak the language that the majority of their resources will use.

 

[allantois]

I remember reading somewhere that Switzerland is one of the hardest countries in the world to become a citizen of.

Really this makes no sense; I think you have idealized the image of Switzerland without ever being there or having connections to the country/culture/language. Also, you do realize that medicine in Europe is pursued right after high school and hence the length of programs is 6-7 years?

*Swiss citizenship: Getting a Swiss passport or Swiss permanent residency - Expat Guide to Switzerland | Expatica

UZH - University of Zurich - Studying Medicine

Doesn’t even look like they accept foreign non-residents.

 

[907914]

Well Switzerland is probably out of question, my suggestion if you want to work abroad as a US doctor is become US trained at a medical school and residency here. Your best bet will be emergency medicine and then you can do locum tenons positions in the UK New Zealand Australia Brazil Columbia one specific hospital in France the united Arab emirates and Saudi Arabia. Some positions are occasionally available in the Caribbean India And many travel positions throughout Southeast Asia. However the ones outside of the UK and Canada New Zealand and Australia are typically going to be as part of an American or British team where you are the primary physician for a team or crew that’s doing something.

 

[jarednogeek]

My only experience with Switzerland Is beautiful scenery and 12 to $15 Burger King burgers.

 

[doc05]

Don't speak the language at all as of right now. However, classes are taught in English and speaking Swiss German is not a requirement for admission. So it would be a matter of learning the language as efficiently as possible if I decide to apply.

German is one of the hardest languages to master. So your plan is not viable.

 

[885815]

Looking for some advice regarding applying to medical school outside of the country.

I'm seriously looking into going to medical school in Switzerland (specifically at the University of Zurich) for a few reasons:

1. I probably want to live there as an adult so I'd like to establish my roots.
2. They generally treat students and residents far better and have a more relaxed system than the US medical education system. For example, residents work a maximum of 55 hours per week and are paid on average $90k in their first year (yes, Switzerland has a higher cost of living but this still translates to a very liveable wage).
3. Similar to 2, Swiss doctors are treated far better and have a better work-life balance (maximum 43 hours per week and mandatory retirement at 62).
4. Their medical system is one of the best internationally and is respected by many other countries such as the US.
5. Tuition is $1250/semester for non-Swiss citizens. Yeah.

It's relatively hard to get in as a US citizen (which I am), especially as one with no official ties to Switzerland, and would require me to jump through a bunch of hoops (language barriers for a while before learning swiss german, getting residency, not to mention relocating halfway across the world). So I'm just wondering if anyone has any advice/opinions, or if by any chance anyone has done this before.

Note: I'd be applying to the University of Zurich alongside 10-15 American MD schools in the upcoming 2019-2020 cycle.

I think it's an awesome experience to do schooling outside of the US, but medicine is a very different field. Prestige and name matter so much, especially if you want to go into competitive specialties like dermatology. What I learned is that if you plan on practicing medicine in the US, you should only go to medical school and residency in the US. The reason being that US schools and programs are heavily biased towards their own US citizens. If you go to a foreign medical school, it will be exponentially more difficult to get interviews in the US simply because there are tens of thousands more applicants than there are residency positions. And I don't see the number of residency spots going up any time soon. You'll be a foreign medical graduate in their eyes, regardless of which school you go (unless of course you go to Oxford or Cambridge...other lesser known schools like Imperial College London they won't even take time to do the research to see how good the school is). I'm applying to internal medicine residency which is one of the least competitive specialties, and according to the working spreadsheet, foreign medical grads have to apply to 100+ programs (thousands of dollars spent) to get the same amount of interviews as US MD students (20-40 programs for ~$700). The stress is not worth it.
However, if you plan to practice medicine in Switzerland and maybe would like to raise a family or find a significant other there, then I think that would be fine. Who says you can't learn another language as you'll be staying at least 6 years there. And you get to travel and live in Europe which is awesome.
The only caveat is if you plan to return to the US to practice, then don't even consider going out of the country for any training.

 

[Rooks]

Switzerland only allows Swiss citizens and very special case long-time residents to enter their medical school. They invest in their own people. So to the best of my knowledge you would not be eligible.

 

[Dr. Stalker]

The best advice I read on SDN is to attend medical school in the country you wish to practice in. If that's Switzerland, go for it. If you're planning on coming back to the United States for residency, fix your application and get admitted here. We have a plethora of MD schools that aren't the most competitive as well as incredible osteopathic institutions that routinely match graduates into top-tier specialties.

 

[fishzebra]

That seems.... interesting. I cannot imagine trying to educate a student in advanced material when they don't speak the language that the majority of their resources will use.

This is a super good point. The classes are taught in English, but because the primary language is Swiss German I would be at a significant disadvantage when seeking help from professors, or consulting textbooks readily available to me.

 

[fishzebra]

Well Switzerland is probably out of question, my suggestion if you want to work abroad as a US doctor is become US trained at a medical school and residency here. Your best bet will be emergency medicine and then you can do locum tenons positions in the UK New Zealand Australia Brazil Columbia one specific hospital in France the united Arab emirates and Saudi Arabia. Some positions are occasionally available in the Caribbean India And many travel positions throughout Southeast Asia. However the ones outside of the UK and Canada New Zealand and Australia are typically going to be as part of an American or British team where you are the primary physician for a team or crew that’s doing something.

You bring up a good point here- I guess the question I really have to answer, then, is if I want to be a US doctor working abroad, or if I want to be a non-US doctor.

 

[fishzebra]

The question is moot.

Applicants with Foreign Nationality
Because the number of students is limited, students with foreign nationality will only be accepted to the program if they have a residence permit approved by UZH,

I believe that I read somewhere else that although this is a requirement, you can get that document after acceptance to a Swiss graduate program, but I'll have to do some more research.

 

[fishzebra]

The best advice I read on SDN is to attend medical school in the country you wish to practice in. If that's Switzerland, go for it. If you're planning on coming back to the United States for residency, fix your application and get admitted here. We have a plethora of MD schools that aren't the most competitive as well as incredible osteopathic institutions that routinely match graduates into top-tier specialties.

My problem isn't getting in, as I've already been pre-accepted to a lower-tier MD school and have the qualifications for some mid-to-high tier MDs. I think I have some thinking to do regarding your second point of if I want to do residency in the US.

 

[fishzebra]

I remember reading somewhere that Switzerland is one of the hardest countries in the world to become a citizen of.

Really this makes no sense; I think you have idealized the image of Switzerland without ever being there or having connections to the country/culture/language. Also, you do realize that medicine in Europe is pursued right after high school and hence the length of programs is 6-7 years?

*Swiss citizenship: Getting a Swiss passport or Swiss permanent residency - Expat Guide to Switzerland | Expatica

UZH - University of Zurich - Studying Medicine

Doesn’t even look like they accept foreign non-residents.

You're certainly right in that Switzerland is a hard country to become a citizen in. And it is possible that I have an elevated view of the country, I wouldn't say that it's idealized without ever having been there or having connections, as you said. A relative of mine moved from the US to there and when I visited her, we had many discussions of the reality of making that move, as well as what the life of a doctor is like in Switzerland compared to the US. That is what's really appealing to me.

I do realize that the length of the program is longer (I think I mentioned it above in a previous reply). But, that's not really of concern to me, due to the lower tuition rate and the fact that the work-until-you-drop 80 hours per week lifestyle isn't present there, so it makes sense that it takes longer to do the same work we can do in 4 years in the US.

 

[fishzebra]

I think it's an awesome experience to do schooling outside of the US, but medicine is a very different field. Prestige and name matter so much, especially if you want to go into competitive specialties like dermatology. What I learned is that if you plan on practicing medicine in the US, you should only go to medical school and residency in the US. The reason being that US schools and programs are heavily biased towards their own US citizens. If you go to a foreign medical school, it will be exponentially more difficult to get interviews in the US simply because there are tens of thousands more applicants than there are residency positions. And I don't see the number of residency spots going up any time soon. You'll be a foreign medical graduate in their eyes, regardless of which school you go (unless of course you go to Oxford or Cambridge...other lesser known schools like Imperial College London they won't even take time to do the research to see how good the school is). I'm applying to internal medicine residency which is one of the least competitive specialties, and according to the working spreadsheet, foreign medical grads have to apply to 100+ programs (thousands of dollars spent) to get the same amount of interviews as US MD students (20-40 programs for ~$700). The stress is not worth it.
However, if you plan to practice medicine in Switzerland and maybe would like to raise a family or find a significant other there, then I think that would be fine. Who says you can't learn another language as you'll be staying at least 6 years there. And you get to travel and live in Europe which is awesome.
The only caveat is if you plan to return to the US to practice, then don't even consider going out of the country for any training.

This is a really great point that I think is the root of my question here. I'm just not sure yet if I want to practice in the US or not. Once I make that decision, then I guess that will determine where I decide to go.

 

[Dr. Stalker]

This is a really great point that I think is the root of my question here. I'm just not sure yet if I want to practice in the US or not. Once I make that decision, then I guess that will determine where I decide to go.

Ah, apologies on my incorrect assumption. Usually on SDN when students mention foreign schools, its because of failure to get admitted inside the states.

Think long and hard about your future. Is it possible to come back? hell yes. Is it easy? hell no.

 

[fishzebra]

German is one of the hardest languages to master. So your plan is not viable.

I agree that it's a hard language, and it doesn't help that Swiss German is a different dialect with no written language. So I'd basically be learning two languages: Swiss German and High German. But, I feel like it's a bit catastrophic to say that my plan is not viable just because of a language barrier. Will that make it harder? Sure. But I don't think it's a reason to scrap the whole thing.

 

[fishzebra]

Ah, apologies on my incorrect assumption. Usually on SDN when students mention foreign schools, its because of failure to get admitted inside the states.

Think long and hard about your future. Is it possible to come back? hell yes. Is it easy? hell no.

No worries. I know that that's generally the case. Thank you for the advice. I have a lot of thinking to do. Luckily I've still got a while until I have to officially make the decision.

 

[doc05]

I agree that it's a hard language, and it doesn't help that Swiss German is a different dialect with no written language. So I'd basically be learning two languages: Swiss German and High German. But, I feel like it's a bit catastrophic to say that my plan is not viable just because of a language barrier. Will that make it harder? Sure. But I don't think it's a reason to scrap the whole thing.

Actually, it is. With no prior knowledge, it will take years to master the language.

 

[timbernight]

I agree that it's a hard language, and it doesn't help that Swiss German is a different dialect with no written language. So I'd basically be learning two languages: Swiss German and High German. But, I feel like it's a bit catastrophic to say that my plan is not viable just because of a language barrier. Will that make it harder? Sure. But I don't think it's a reason to scrap the whole thing.

I agree with you, especially if you have a knack for languages. I think with dedication and immersion experience you can definitely learn the dialects in a reasonable amount of time. I say this from personal experience learning languages, I reached advanced proficiency in less than a year for one of them. Aside from the language aspect, though, definitely think long and hard before deciding to leave your MD acceptance here, which is highly sought after worldwide, and in your home country where you know the culture. Perhaps live there for a few months to get a sense of the culture (and work on language) before deciding, if you can. MD schools sometimes accept requests to defer admission if you wanted to spend the year teaching English there for example for the reasons I stated. Exciting stuff! Good luck!

 

[hmockingbird]

Also look at how their residency match process works and if they preference citizens.

I’ve heard Germany is easier to get into if you speak German.

Other things to think about: have you ever been abroad? To Switzerland specifically? Have you ever lived far from family? I’m not at all saying these all need to be answered yes, there is a first time for everything, but just that this is a huge commitment so you should think about these factors. How LONG is their residency? (It may be less hours but significantly more years, is that ok with you?)

 

[fishzebra]

I agree with you, especially if you have a knack for languages. I think with dedication and immersion experience you can definitely learn the dialects in a reasonable amount of time. I say this from personal experience learning languages, I reached advanced proficiency in less than a year for one of them. Aside from the language aspect, though, definitely think long and hard before deciding to leave your MD acceptance here, which is highly sought after worldwide, and in your home country where you know the culture. Perhaps live there for a few months to get a sense of the culture (and work on language) before deciding, if you can. MD schools sometimes accept requests to defer admission if you wanted to spend the year teaching English there for example for the reasons I stated. Exciting stuff! Good luck!

This is a really great suggestion, thank you! I hadn't even considered deferring my admission. Definitely something to think about.

 

[gyngyn]

This is a really great suggestion, thank you! I hadn't even considered deferring my admission. Definitely something to think about.

The contract for deferral often contains a clause that you may not re-apply to medical school...
At a minimum, they will expect a good reason for the deferral. Re-applying would not generally be considered one of them.

 

[fishzebra]

The contract for deferral often contains a clause that you may not re-apply to medical school...
At a minimum, they will expect a good reason for the deferral. Re-applying would not generally be considered one of them.

Good to know. I could see why a med school wouldn't be so keen on letting me take a year off to see if I can get something better. Haha

 

[nimbus]

My problem isn't getting in, as I've already been pre-accepted to a lower-tier MD school and have the qualifications for some mid-to-high tier MDs. I think I have some thinking to do regarding your second point of if I want to do residency in the US.

What is “pre-accepted”? Why don’t they just accept you?

 

[fishzebra]

What is “pre-accepted”? Why don’t they just accept you?

Without getting into specifics, I was accepted in my sophomore year for the fall after senior year through a pseudo-BSMD at my university. So I am accepted as long as I fulfill the class requirements and continue the standard pre-health work that I had already been doing. It's not an official acceptance because of the nature of the program (I assume they want to have ground to deny people if they suddenly start failing upper coursework/stop volunteering/etc).

 

[atomi]

First of all, studying Medical outside the US is very different from what you do in the US. Practicing medicine outside the US will not be the same as practicing in Swizterland. But, Switzerland is a good country will be an above average standard of living. Swiss German dialect is again different from standard German and is harder as well. But, with dedication and time, you can master the language. 4-5 months are enough to master any language so is Swiss German. For visa and permanent residency, it would take time. But, you can get a student visa for Switzerland and later working visa, it will not be that tough as you are thinking.

You cannot master German in 4-5 months. This is foolish.

The only way to truly become fluent is to live and work in Germany for many years and be forced to speak the language daily as your primary means of communication. And even then you will have a bad accent and poor command of the vocabulary and syntax.

Achieving native level fluency is near impossible as an adult. I studied German intensively for years. I can barely hold a basic conversation.

If you think you can pick it up well enough to study in it and make it your primary language with an iPhone app or a few language courses, you’re kidding yourself.

 

[Chinita]

Hi OP, I was wondering if you ended up going to Switzerland??

 

[Goro]

Hi OP, I was wondering if you ended up going to Switzerland??

As of Feb of this year, OP was waitlisted at Northwestern, I'd say the Swiss route didn't pan out.

 

[Chinita]

As of Feb of this year, OP was waitlisted at Northwestern, I'd say the Swiss route didn't pan out.

Thanks for the update!

 

[fishzebra]

As of Feb of this year, OP was waitlisted at Northwestern, I'd say the Swiss route didn't pan out.

Thanks for the update!

Yeah, it did not pan out. I ended up applying only to US schools. I would still love to work/live in Switzerland at some point but a lot of factors made this an unrealistic option, specifically the language barrier (like many people mentioned above).

 

[Chinita]

Yeah, it did not pan out. I ended up applying only to US schools. I would still love to work/live in Switzerland at some point but a lot of factors made this an unrealistic option, specifically the language barrier (like many people mentioned above).

I hope everything goes well for you with the US med schools, thanks for the update!

 

[Trujgef]

I see that there are errors in the understanding of how medical studies in Switzerland are like.
It is very different from the USA.
In Switzerland it's 6 years, but it's not really longer because we can enter right after college without doing a bachelor's degree first. So you go straight into medicine without a bachelor's degree and only a college degree.
Some schools are on competitive entrance exams, others are free entrance.So it's very easy to get in, but the sorting is done during the first year with scales at 80% to get the average grade. The scale varies according to the performance of all the students to pass only 250 in Lausanne for example. This year only 250 students out of the 900 registered will be able to move up to the second year.


The first year of medicine is somewhat equivalent to the MCAT. You only have 2 attempts to pass the first year otherwise it is a "definitive failure" for 5 years, which means that you can no longer enroll in a medical university for 5 years. Unlike in the USA where you have 7 attempts to pass the MCAT.

The second year and the third year are actual medical courses.
The 4th year is 1 semester of courses and 1 semester of internship.

The 5th year is also divided into internships and courses.
The 6th year is only practical internships.