Medical School rankings- do they matter?

[stat3113]

I've been reading about what it takes to get a good residency, i.e. usmle scores, grades, etc. Naturally, I was kind of surprised to see that which medical school you go to seems to not matter at all. Why is that (if that is indeed the case)?

For every other profession, the institution you graduated from matters immensely. I.e. law, business, engineering, etc. Even for medical schools, I would argue that there are some whose names slip off the tongues of the average person, and others whom no one has heard of.

Honestly: is the medical school you go to totally insignificant? How can it be that the quality of education and training is nearly equivalent at all the >100 US MD schools?

In medicine itself, does it make a difference? Is there snobbery between grads of prestigious schools and others? Is there discrimination in residency match, etc? What about for competitive specialties? Are there claims like 'the average student at school A is equivalent to a student in the top 10% of his class at school B'? (kind of like it might be said that a 3.5 at an Ivy is equal to a 4.0 anywhere else.)

I'm very curious about this and look forward to your responses.

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[Law2Doc]

I've been reading about what it takes to get a good residency, i.e. usmle scores, grades, etc. Naturally, I was kind of surprised to see that which medical school you go to seems to not matter at all. Why is that (if that is indeed the case)?

For every other profession, the institution you graduated from matters immensely. I.e. law, business, engineering, etc. Even for medical schools, I would argue that there are some whose names slip off the tongues of the average person, and others whom no one has heard of.

Honestly: is the medical school you go to totally insignificant? How can it be that the quality of education and training is nearly equivalent at all the >100 US MD schools?

In medicine itself, does it make a difference? Is there snobbery between grads of prestigious schools and others? Is there discrimination in residency match, etc? What about for competitive specialties? Are there claims like 'the average student at school A is equivalent to a student in the top 10% of his class at school B'? (kind of like it might be said that a 3.5 at an Ivy is equal to a 4.0 anywhere else.)

I'm very curious about this and look forward to your responses.

Everything matters, but pedigree is reportedly not really in the top few criteria used by residencies (perhaps it comes to bear in tie breakers). You will see the better students with the high Step 1 scores matching very well regardless of where they are coming from. Thus every allo school is a decent launching pad for any residency -- the rest is up to you. So yes, it is a bit different than other fields as it is a bit more of a meritocracy. You have to prove yourself every step of the way -- you get less benefit from where you've been (than eg law, business) unless you can produce at where you are currently at.

With respect to whether training is nearly equivalent at all 125 allo schools, there are certainly some places that do things better than others, but you aren't going to find that eg the top 10 schools are cranking out noticeably better doctors than the bottom 10. There is a surprising level of uniformity. Every place is pretty decent as there are only 100 of them, each with 150 students on average, as compared to other fields/professions where there may be 500+ schools each with eg 200+ students. So, much like in professional baseball, where if you have a glut of teams the pitching is going to be quite thin at some places, if you cut it to a fifth or less you will see pretty decent parity in the league.

The best of each school are the best, and the worst are still the worst. Nearly every school covers the same course curricula (Some have different schedules, work more PBL into the mix, do more clinical stuff earlier, but for the most part the end product is similar). There are no-name schools that do better than some of the brand name schools at the boards. And educators are of similar caliber at most places, particularly since there is a ton of poaching of professors back and forth among the schools. Your non-top-10 school will generally have multiple professors who taught at the top 10 schools last year. Further, most of medicine is learned on the wards, not in the classroom. And odds are pretty decent that throughout your career, you will work for many folks who went to less prestigious schools than you, and will get most of your training from them. So your quality of education is only going to be as good as theirs was.

As for snobbery, in medicine you are only as good as what you can do and the last place you've been. So someone who does med school at Joe Blow SOM but residencies at Mass General is going to be that dude from mass general. Med schools get quickly forgotten because they are but a step in a staircase of elevations. Same way where you went to college is not going to matter once you get into med school.

 

[smq123]

How can it be that the quality of education and training is nearly equivalent at all the >100 US MD schools?

Step 1.
Step 2 CK.
LCME re-accreditation every 7 years. (I think they've recently changed it to every 8 years)

There are rigid national standards that we all have to follow. As a result, allopathic medical education in the US is fairly homogenous.

 

[plastikosmd]

Harvard is still Harvard, Yale-Yale. But, I would say that there is much less weight placed on where you went to school compared to other stats/evals. I know when I matched 7 years ago..I attended a state school, miles from the top tier. Still had 20+ interviews in plastic, my school was never mentioned. I also know when I sit in on our rank meetings, a US MD grad is a US MD grad. we pay much more attention . for our purposes… (combined plastic program)

USMLE 1 greater than 2
Clinical Rotation evals (Honors etc)
LOR's and do we know any of the people giving the rec. (this may carry significant weight)
How you interviewed, personality, could you handle the work
Did you rotate with us and what did the residents think (i have seen this trump all of the above...many times)

that is pretty much it...where you graduated from is hardly noted...unless there is someone there we can verify you recc's with etc. Of course this is only my experience, and maybe a paticular program may care..but GENERALLY speaking it doesnt as much as maybe college to med-school did.

 

[AmoryBlaine]

I think what happens more is that the different types of education are reflected in the students, but nothing is really better or worse.

For example, I go to a fairly selective private school. We end up doing most of our rotations at a large, academic, tertiary care center. So as an M3 I was seeing crazy diseases regularly and rounding on patients with all sorts of complicated and rare pathology.

I have had the pleasure of rotating with students from a less competitive school near mine. While they don't get such awesome tertiary experience, they tend to rotate at busy, understaffed charity or county hospitals.

So on day 1 of internship who would you want writing admit orders if grandma had 3 kinds of cancer, lupus, and brittle diabetes? Probably me.

But if Uncle John needed his laceration repaired, you'd want the guy from the other school.

See how that works? There's no wrong answer.

 

[UnderdogMD]

Very informative thread. Thanks guys. So I was wondering, if the school you go to does not matter why would somebody go to more expensive Harvard over a cheaper state school? Are you guys saying there is equal oppurtunity to obtain any residency from any US allo med school? Or are some schools more equal than others? (Assume that a person performs the exact same at any med school-average boards, average grades etc)

 

[LifetimeDoc]

So on day 1 of internship who would you want writing admit orders if grandma had 3 kinds of cancer, lupus, and brittle diabetes? Probably me.

But if Uncle John needed his laceration repaired, you'd want the guy from the other school.

See how that works? There's no wrong answer.

And on day 364 of internship, would there be much of a difference between the two? Probably not.

 

[postbacker]

Very informative thread. Thanks guys. So I was wondering, if the school you go to does not matter why would somebody go to more expensive Harvard over a cheaper state school? Are you guys saying there is equal oppurtunity to obtain any residency from any US allo med school? Or are some schools more equal than others? (Assume that a person performs the exact same at any med school-average boards, average grades etc)

Well, in your example of Harvard vs the state school, one might choose Harvard for the research opportunities and connections that might translate into an academic/research career that would not be as available from State U Med...but if your goal is not an academic/research career, but say primary care, it might completely change your view of the value of the Harvard name vis-a-vis the extra $$$ it cost you to obtain that pedigree...

So see, as always, the answer to your question is "it depends"...and the problem here on SDN is that too many people are obsessed with the name and ranking of a school and spend very little time analyzing their own goals...FWIW my personal view is that taking on a lot of extra debt to attend a higher ranked school is pretty foolish...

 

[Critical Mass]

Expect this one to get moved to pre-allo.

To answer the question, not as much as people think, but the school graduated from can play a role in matching. Board scores are much more important, though, so I always advise choosing the school where you will learn best. That means reducing stress related to tuition costs and selecting a curriculum style that best fits you.

 

[njbmd]

I've been reading about what it takes to get a good residency, i.e. usmle scores, grades, etc. Naturally, I was kind of surprised to see that which medical school you go to seems to not matter at all. Why is that (if that is indeed the case)?

For every other profession, the institution you graduated from matters immensely. I.e. law, business, engineering, etc. Even for medical schools, I would argue that there are some whose names slip off the tongues of the average person, and others whom no one has heard of.

Honestly: is the medical school you go to totally insignificant? How can it be that the quality of education and training is nearly equivalent at all the >100 US MD schools?

In medicine itself, does it make a difference? Is there snobbery between grads of prestigious schools and others? Is there discrimination in residency match, etc? What about for competitive specialties? Are there claims like 'the average student at school A is equivalent to a student in the top 10% of his class at school B'? (kind of like it might be said that a 3.5 at an Ivy is equal to a 4.0 anywhere else.)

I'm very curious about this and look forward to your responses.

It is not so much the medical school that you attended but how you performed at the medical school that you attended. There is little difference between medical schools in this country as long as they are accredited by the LCME (Liaison Committee for Medical Education). Every accredited medical school has to meet their criteria for accreditation every seven years. Things like number of people passing boards/courses, quality of classroom instruction/curriculum and clinical facilities are examined by this committee. I participated in one of these accreditation visits as medical student and believe me, this committee is quite thorough in terms of their evaluation of medical schools. A school can lose accreditation or be given probationary accreditation if things are not in place.

Residency program directors know the accreditation status of medical schools in this country and know which schools are having problems. They also look for students who have performed well in medical schools (grades) and on the "great equalizer" USMLE Step I. These are the main evaluation tools that are used to evaluate potential residency applicants. Residency programs want the best applicants that they can find for their programs.

In my residency program, I worked alongside several residents from Ivy League medical schools and other medical schools that were definitely "higher ranked " than mine. These folks were never "snobs" or "jerks". In terms of performance, my performance in residency is no better or worse than their performance. Residents who are less senior than myself, learn as much from me as I learned from residents who are more senior than myself. In short, residency is a great equalizer too.

I definitely know that my performance in medical school and on USMLE were the main determinants of where I obtained residency interviews and matched. After that, my work ethic, my ability to master the tasks of my residency were largely up to me.

Any accredited medical school in this country that you can get into, will provide the medical education that you need for doing well on USMLE (all steps) and residency. It is largely up to you as the student to perform your best. Do rankings matter? Probably not near as much as how you perform in medical school. A high performer at a lower ranked school is going to go further than a low performer at a higher ranked school. Also, rankings are only as good as the entity that is doing the ranking.

 

[dannylee718]

Basically, its the prestige that comes with the name. You need to decide for yourself how much prestige costs to you. For some it is important, and i respect that opinion. I just can't turn down paying almost 1/2 the price for a comparable education. There is NO way any 'top tier' school is 2X better than a 'lower tier' school. So, I've decided to withdraw my other accepts/waits and stick with my state school.

Sometimes it does get tiring to explain over and over to my family & friends (even my parents) that my school is NOT called "Johnson & Johnson" but its "Robert Wood Johnson". Damn thats annoying -- my school doesn't specialize in making baby powder and alcohol swaps goddamit (lol). Otherwise, I feel I made the right decision in attending my state school. We'll see when the school-year actually starts.

 

[stat3113]

Based on what you all are saying, would it be irrational for someone who has been accepted to a no-name US MD school to refuse the offer and wait another year to get accepted into a better tier school? (hypothetical situation)

But does it still happen? And if so, is this decision held against the app upon reapplication the next year (by both no-name and top tier schools)?

 

[sanche60]

i would agree with what everyone is saying about med school name not really mattering. However, it should be considered that most residency programs give a "home team advantage" to their own graduates. look at schools match list, sometimes nearly a third to half the class stays at the school they graduated from. there are obvious reasons for this and stating it as such may be an oversimplification, but it may help you feel more secure about obtaining a "good" residency if you are going to a school that you aready consider to be a top program.

 

[plastikosmd]

"Based on what you all are saying, would it be irrational for someone who has been accepted to a no-name US MD school to refuse the offer and wait another year to get accepted into a better tier school? (hypothetical situation)"

i guess that would be a personal decision, i dont know what you would gain, cept maybe at cocktail parties, you get to say you went to X med school. what you do in residency, papers, choice of fellowship, connections that you make with people in your chosen field are all gonna matter more in the end for that theoretical "academic job". I can tell you..after a 6 year residency, 1 year fellowship, nobody gives a damn what med school i went to...and i barely remember those days myself. state school, 50k total to attend 4 years, and starting an ivy academic/private combo this summer. all i did was my job, just worked - thats it.


on edit..this view may be a bit too simple...i mean..i did work very hard...which im sure was more important in the end. some other benefits of a particular school...not every school has direct connection to the particular research you may want to do, a leader in a field that you want enter, a location that you want to live in, a price you can afford..and the list goes on....i chose a unknown state school for college and now doubt my road was made a lot harder....needing better scores, more buffing on the application..etc. when it came time for residency applications...my state med school mattered about as much as my state college to them...just a footnote.

 

[Law2Doc]

Based on what you all are saying, would it be irrational for someone who has been accepted to a no-name US MD school to refuse the offer and wait another year to get accepted into a better tier school? (hypothetical situation)

Yes. Odds aren't as good as a reapplicant (you have to show substantial improvement, and some schools reportedly don't regard reapplicants in the "same pile"), so you can easilly turn your one acceptance into none. And that's after spending another year and two sets of application fees.

 

[smq123]

I also know when I sit in on our rank meetings, a US MD grad is a US MD grad. we pay much more attention . for our purposes… (combined plastic program)

USMLE 1 greater than 2
Clinical Rotation evals (Honors etc)
LOR's and do we know any of the people giving the rec. (this may carry significant weight)
How you interviewed, personality, could you handle the work
Did you rotate with us and what did the residents think (i have seen this trump all of the above...many times)

I realize that I am completely hijacking this thread, but this is raising some questions for me.

1) Stuff that I have read elsewhere on SDN (notably the mentors forum, where there is an internal med program director answering questions) have given me the impression that Step 2 is a better predictor of your ability as a future intern than Step 1. This is accentuated by the fact that a weak Step 1 with a strong Step 2 is a good sign, whereas the reverse is a red flag.

But is more weight given to Step 1 just because everyone has definitely taken it before applying to residency? Or does the importance placed on Step 2 (vs. Step 1) vary from specialty to specialty?

2) If, all other things being equal, would you probably rather take an applicant who has done an away rotation with you, as opposed to someone who has not? In other words, is doing an away rotation at your institution merely enough to tip the balance, or is it genuinely a big boost to your app? My student deans have said that doing an audition rotation is "nice if you can get it," but they tell us not to worry too much if we can't get in. I'm not totally sure if they're just saying this now to calm us down, or if that's really what the situation is.

 

[Law2Doc]

1)... But is more weight given to Step 1 just because everyone has definitely taken it before applying to residency? ...
2) If, all other things being equal, would you probably rather take an applicant who has done an away rotation with you, as opposed to someone who has not?

I'm fairly sure the answer to both these questions is yes. Step 1 looms large because it's the one thing that everyone applying for residency has on their app that is an across schools measure.
And (in every industry, not just residency) people always prefer to hire someone they know and like over an unknown commodity.

 

[DrDarwin]

I agree that the very best students are the very best, regardless of where they go to school. That is definitely true. I don't believe, however, that an average student is the same between medical schools. Top schools attract top students, and an average student at a top school who is working and studying very hard would likely be towards--not necessarily at, obviously--the top of the class at a school where the competition is not as intense or impressive. In other words, I think the brighest students are the brightest students, but there is a clear disparity between an 'average' student at a top school and an 'average' student at a much more lowly ranked school. The quality of the student body essentially requires this.

Also, there's no way to quantify how important medical school name is, but it clearly matters. Looking at medical school match lists bears this out. Obviously, medical school name doesn't mean everything--and maybe it doesn't mean much at all--but for whatever reason or reasons (e.g., prestigiousness of school name, more motivated students, better test-taking students, letters from more famous attendings, increased access to research opportunities, etc.) top schools tend to have students with more impressive match results.

Finally, where you do residency training is definitely more important for your career than where you went to medical school, but people don't forget where you went to medical school after you start residency. As anecdotal evidence, all of our attendings have the their respective medical schools listed under the "Education" portion of their faculty profiles online. Places of residency training are, surprisingly, absent. Maybe no one pays attention to this, but I was surprised to see it.

 

[Gut Shot]

Also, there's no way to quantify how important medical school name is, but it clearly matters. Looking at medical school match lists bears this out. Obviously, medical school name doesn't mean everything--and maybe it doesn't mean much at all--but for whatever reason or reasons... ...top schools tend to have students with more impressive match results.

You already hit the nail on the head, yourself:

Top schools attract top students,

 

[plastikosmd]

No doubt top schools have more competitive canidates in them. You still need to put the time in during medical school. The more competitive canidates made themselves that way. They will keep up, most likely, with their study/work abilities..so as a whole that school will place better in the match. The group was already selective. If you also work hard in a less competitive school, the school name will not be a sigificant hinderance to your ability to match. Just do the "right things" as listed above to help yourself. (do well on step 1, get honors, meet people, do some research, etc)
I dont doubt some places list where you went to medical school, heck mine is on a wall somewhere. If you expect a lot of mileage out of it, other than hey..i went there, or hey.. i knew someone there, or nice basketball team, there aint much. As the years go on it gets less and less. If you get into a top tier..thats great...but your work is not done...if you dont...do your work and you will be fine..thats all im tryin to say

 

[belgianbeerguy]

I agree that the very best students are the very best, regardless of where they go to school. That is definitely true. I don't believe, however, that an average student is the same between medical schools. Top schools attract top students, and an average student at a top school who is working and studying very hard would likely be towards--not necessarily at, obviously--the top of the class at a school where the competition is not as intense or impressive. In other words, I think the brighest students are the brightest students, but there is a clear disparity between an 'average' student at a top school and an 'average' student at a much more lowly ranked school. The quality of the student body essentially requires this.

Also, there's no way to quantify how important medical school name is, but it clearly matters. Looking at medical school match lists bears this out. Obviously, medical school name doesn't mean everything--and maybe it doesn't mean much at all--but for whatever reason or reasons (e.g., prestigiousness of school name, more motivated students, better test-taking students, letters from more famous attendings, increased access to research opportunities, etc.) top schools tend to have students with more impressive match results.

Finally, where you do residency training is definitely more important for your career than where you went to medical school, but people don't forget where you went to medical school after you start residency. As anecdotal evidence, all of our attendings have the their respective medical schools listed under the "Education" portion of their faculty profiles online. Places of residency training are, surprisingly, absent. Maybe no one pays attention to this, but I was surprised to see it.

Sure top schools tend to have students with more impressive match results. But low tier schools also crank out several students with highly competitive matches. If we're gonna make a generalization about top ranked schools, we need more info and someone bored enough to do statistical comparisons.

If it were up to me, my ranking system would solely be based on how well students match (like the % of students who got their #1 choice). I feel like that would be much more useful to me than US news. I care more about the liklihood that I'll get into the residency I want rather than bragging about my school at a cocktail party.

My 2 cents ... going to a US allopathic school is an enormous jump from non-US or DO school. Differences between US allo schools seems to be marginal at best.

 

[Law2Doc]

If it were up to me, my ranking system would solely be based on how well students match (like the % of students who got their #1 choice).

This would still not give you a useful yardstick because what becomes your first choice in the match may not have even been the specialty you most wanted a year earlier. There is a lot of not-so-subtle advising that goes on making sure people self select a path they can actually get. Unlike applying to med school where everybody shot a longshot application to a top ten for the heck of it, you tend not to see as many people sending longshot applications for residency. So 100% of students getting their first choice may have less to do with getting what they originally wanted and more to do with applying realistically based on good advising.

 

[belgianbeerguy]

This would still not give you a useful yardstick because what becomes your first choice in the match may not have even been the specialty you most wanted a year earlier. There is a lot of not-so-subtle advising that goes on making sure people self select a path they can actually get. Unlike applying to med school where everybody shot a longshot application to a top ten for the heck of it, you tend not to see as many people sending longshot applications for residency. So 100% of students getting their first choice may have less to do with getting what they originally wanted and more to do with applying realistically based on good advising.

I don't think it matters what my top choice is now. Wouldn't it mean that whatever my top choice is in 4 years, then I'm more likely to get that choice (whatever it is) at school X vs. school y? I have no idea what my #1 choice is now, but I think I'd want to go to a school where 100% of the kids get whatever their #1 choice is.

I suppose you could also rank in terms of Step 1 scores. After seeing a ranking like that, an individual could make their own judgement call based on whether those scores are due to that school just having better students or that school having better professors that prepare you for the USMLEs. No ranking system would be perfect.

Once again though. I doubt any of these systems would show statistical significance between the bottom 10 and top ten schools. I believe you'd have to show significance if there is a large difference between the Means and small standard deviations. I wonder what the standard dev of USMLEs at any given is. Anyone know what it is nationally?

 

[plastikosmd]

"but I think I'd want to go to a school where 100% of the kids get whatever their #1 choice is"

im sure everyone would, just when it comes time to apply you will see the name of your school matters very little, only what you did in school will. im sure step 1 scores would trend towards mcat scores of the school, more competitive schools, probably higher scores. more likely a function of the applicant rather than the school, i guess if a school had low mcat avg and then significantly higher usmle relation..that would probably be something at the school but who knows!

"I doubt any of these systems would show statistical significance between the bottom 10 and top ten schools." yep i bet you are right on a whole...you may see more differences say if you pick a individual field...and that med school's teaching institution has more contacts/connections etc in the field..blah blah. tho thats hard too....i didnt decide till 3rd year what i wanted to do.

 

[postbacker]

The real question is how much would the experiences, relationships, and opportunities at the "higher ranked school" change the outcomes for an individual person, outcomes such as research opportunities, faculty mentors, clinical experiences, one's exposure to specialties, etc?

Some here argue it matters a great deal, but put me in the "not so much" camp...i.e., it might make some very slight differences, but I doubt if it will make any tangible difference when it comes to one's chances at most residencies. Now I do think "where you go to med school" could make more of a difference for someone looking for an academic career track, but even then I do not think it makes a difference in every single case across the board...

For me, the indebtedness issue is of greater importance than the relative ranking of schools. To each his own...

 

[Miami_med]

It really all depends. As an example, I attend a school that periodically bounces in and out of the top 50. We are in terms of the US News Rankings, slightly above average. However, we also have the top eye hospital in the world (Bascolm Palmer). Every year 1 or 2 students from here are accepted, and no other school has that track record of acceptance at Bascolm. If you look at our match list, it goes all over the board. In terms of competition, we matched students into Orthapedics at UCSF and Iowa and Neurosurg at Wash U. We also matched a lot of people into small primary care programs throughout the state. Basically, every school has its strengths and weaknesses. The right candidate can get anywhere from any school, and the advantages (such as Bascolm) of a particular school don't come out in the rankings. It really depends on what you want to do.

 

[Law2Doc]

The real question is how much would the experiences, relationships, and opportunities at the "higher ranked school" change the outcomes for an individual person, outcomes such as research opportunities, faculty mentors, clinical experiences, one's exposure to specialties, etc?

Relationships/connections are huge, but you have to realize that if faculty from a lower ranked schools is willing to make a phone call on your behalf, that is probably worth more than a bigger named guy at a top place just writing a letter. So it's even hard to measure which gives you the better connection opportunities.

 

[postbacker]

Relationships/connections are huge, but you have to realize that if faculty from a lower ranked schools is willing to make a phone call on your behalf, that is probably worth more than a bigger named guy at a top place just writing a letter. So it's even hard to measure which gives you the better connection opportunities.

Totally agree with you.

The analogy of "big fish in a small pond" vs "little fish in a big pond" comes to mind, and I am sure it overstates the case, too, but I think that wherever one goes to med school, one will find plenty of faculty mentors, research opportunities, clinical experiences, etc., and it may end up working to your advantage to be the "big fish in the small(er) pond" instead of the other way around when it comes to residencies, too...

Of course, "big fish in the big pond" works too...

 

[njbmd]

The real question is how much would the experiences, relationships, and opportunities at the "higher ranked school" change the outcomes for an individual person, outcomes such as research opportunities, faculty mentors, clinical experiences, one's exposure to specialties, etc?

For me, the indebtedness issue is of greater importance than the relative ranking of schools. To each his own...

I agree that indebtedness is a strong issue and in my experience, graduating from a low-ranked medical school hasn't made any difference in my career or the direction that it has taken. I had a choice between a full-ride tuition scholarship at a lower ranked medical school versus attending a higher-ranked medical school but borrowing more money. In the end (and at this point in my career), I am quite happy with my decision not to have a huge amount of debt to pay off. I will be an academic physician and my performance in medical school/USMLE was of greater importance than the medical school that I attended. At every residency interview, the material on my CV was discussed not my medical school.

If you attend a medical school where you do not believe that you are getting exposure to nationally ranked leaders in specialties or a specific specialty, you can do an away rotation. The best use of an away-elective is to gain experience that is not available to you at your medical school. Again, if you are a top performer and a competitive applicant for your specialty, doing an away rotation -and doing well- can put you to the top of the rankings in any residency program.

In the residency ranking meetings that I have attended, not one time was an applicant's medical school mentioned. What was mentioned was an applicant's performance in medical school and on USMLE Step I. Also mentioned highly was the performance by an applicant who chose to do an audition rotation in our department.

Again, attend the medical school that accepts you and in the case of making a choice between schools, choose the medical school where you feel that you can excel academically and personally. In the end, it is your performance and competitiveness that will determine where you end up for residency (and in some cases) the specialty that you enter.

Rankings of medical schools in this country are far less important than the rankings of undergraduate institutions in this country. In terms of rankings of medical school, they don't matter as much as the performance of the individuals who attend those schools.

 

[Gut Shot]

I think that wherever one goes to med school, one will find plenty of faculty mentors, research opportunities, clinical experiences, etc.,

Absolutely true, and one of the most difficult things for people to grasp. To swat a fly you need a flyswatter, not a Buick. Some folks assume that places like Hopkins and Harvard are wall-to-wall with gifted faculty and stellar teaching. The simple fact is that strong, well known people are present at virtually every institution. One could even make the case that better teaching is more prevalent at lesser known schools, since they aren't so beholden to research (and yes, it's very hard to be good at both clinical training and research).

 

[meehawl]

(kind of like it might be said that a 3.5 at an Ivy is equal to a 4.0 anywhere else.)

Some Ivies suffer from especially rampant grade inflation so your convenient heuristic here may in fact require reversal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grade_inflation#Recent_instances

 

[sendwich]

Based on what you all are saying, would it be irrational for someone who has been accepted to a no-name US MD school to refuse the offer and wait another year to get accepted into a better tier school? (hypothetical situation)

But does it still happen? And if so, is this decision held against the app upon reapplication the next year (by both no-name and top tier schools)?

this is a huge no-no. if you take this route, you will have to answer to the question on AMCAS and interviews "have you applied to schools last year? did you get in?". turning down an acceptacne because the school is not "good enuf" for you isn't going to fly with most (if not all) medschools. you're pretty much doomed for a life outside of medicine (unless you have a pretty darn good reason....ie...you had to take care of a dying relative cus no one else possibly could)

 

[greater_omentum]

us news is a bit rediculous. i think the variable that can hurt/help you that no one has talked about is the presence of "home" programs. coming from my school for instance, is GREAT if you want ortho, internal med, or emergency med because we have well regarded programs with a whole lot of residents. if you wanted urology or optho, you might rue the day you came- people still match from time to time- but we don't have residency programs in those fields, and thus you can't have your home program's PD write you a letter and whatnot. so its definitely more of an uphill battle for those wanting to cut people's eyeballs. that being said, doing well on step1/year3/not being a tool and getting good LORs from away rotations counts for a lot.

 

[Gut Shot]

us news is a bit rediculous.

I believe it's "redickerus."

 

[greater_omentum]

I believe it's "redickerus."

ironically that's how i lost the spelling bee in 1st grade 🙄

 

[SomeDoc]

Suggested reading from Darrell G. Kirch, AAMC President:


Medical School Rankings: Is There Really a Number One?

http://www.aamc.org/newsroom/reporter/may07/word.htm

 

[LifetimeDoc]

Suggested reading from Darrell G. Kirch, AAMC President:


Medical School Rankings: Is There Really a Number One?

http://www.aamc.org/newsroom/reporter/may07/word.htm

I think I might post this as a new thread in pre-allo...searching to see if it was already posted...

 

[karenwkyk]

To be fair, i would have to say that not particularly the ranking does matter, but the reputation of the school is more important. And all the opportunities and connection a a good school that can bring to you. (i am not saying that other medical school are bad school, obviously, all medical school meet the rigious criteria of AAMC)

And these subtle different is very difficult to be measured by just how many times the school name are mentioned on the residency adcom. Just look at the fact, the matching list from U of Michigian and Drexel med is so different. If you don't believe me, you can count the number of people who got accepted at a prestigious residency in a competitive field. U of michigian has 70 to 80% of people who got one of the top notch spot, while drexel has less than 10% of people who got into a top residency program. How do you explain this fact.

For my personal experience, the top school is not only providing you the name , but many opportunities that is not avaliable in a regular school. i went to one of the top school in the country, and it is how i met the Dragon of the field that i want to specialize in (one of the most famous neuro-surgeon in the U.S.). Now, i am doing research in his lab, and get to go to all these science meetings and meet a whole brunch of people. Also, the clinical education is excellent, the most difficult cases are sending to my school hospital, but not to a small community hospital. Moreover, who evaluating you also pay a very important part in the residency selection process. IF the adcom know the peoson who evaluate you, and know that his word is trustable, his LOR will weight a lot heavier that from some random people. on the other hand, my friend (one year older than me) who also want to do neurosurgeny, who went to a regular school. He is doing very well at school, horons most of his class, very high USMLE scorce, and got 13 interviews for neurosurgeny, but he still didn't get match. (he is not the only one, his school never has anyone who get match in neurosurgeny in the past 10 years, but my school has a tons of people get match in neurosurgeny every year)
Not only one time, my professors and other poeple (lab chiefs from Havard and yale) at NIH mention to me that it is very important to go to a top school, especially if you want to do academic medicine or a very competitive residency in a top school.
Therefore, a good school will come to play many different roles in varies subtle ways that you don't even know that it does matter.

 

[gostudy]

And these subtle different is very difficult to be measured by just how many times the school name are mentioned on the residency adcom. Just look at the fact, the matching list from U of Michigian and Drexel med is so different. If you don't believe me, you can count the number of people who got accepted at a prestigious residency in a competitive field. U of michigian has 70 to 80% of people who got one of the top notch spot, while drexel has less than 10% of people who got into a top residency program. How do you explain this fact...

Could it be that maybe, just maybe students at UM are more motivated and work harder than those from DU. I encourage you to research their average board scores.

...on the other hand, my friend (one year older than me) who also want to do neurosurgeny, who went to a regular school. He is doing very well at school, horons most of his class, very high USMLE scorce, and got 13 interviews for neurosurgeny, but he still didn't get match. (he is not the only one, his school never has anyone who get match in neurosurgeny in the past 10 years, but my school has a tons of people get match in neurosurgeny every year)

Now, on this I can almost agree with you. I think when evaluating matchlists you should recognize which specialties a particular school has a knack to sending students to and which specialties a particular school does not send many if any students to. If you're friend's school never matched any to neurosurg (although I find that hard to believe, is it a new med school?) It's probably not a good idea to go to that school with the intention of doing neurosurg without a clear plan to buck his school's trend.

 

[gostudy]

The bottom line for any pre-meds reading this is: choose the school where you'll feel the happiest. And know that hapiness is defined differently by everyone. For some it's saving money, for others it's being close to family, others having a diverse class, others name recognition, others it's being in a great city, the list goes on. The important thing to remember is that you make a decision based on what makes YOU happy and not what someone else (esp. on SDN) says will make you happy. Take this advice and naturally you'll be, happy.


From SDN's 20 questions:

17. At some point in the application process every applicant thinks about the varying cost of attendance amongst the different Universities. Do you feel cost should play a role in an applicant's decision on where to attend medical school?

My view is that cost should play no role, zero, nada, in deciding where to attend medical school. The simple fact is that the money is available to get you through even the most expensive school and unless you have unusual resources you're going to go into debt no matter where you go to medical school. My advice as an associate dean of admissions and as a father is "Go to medical school were you're going to be happiest. Happy students always do better than unhappy students."

 

[PeepshowJohnny]

And these subtle different is very difficult to be measured by just how many times the school name are mentioned on the residency adcom. Just look at the fact, the matching list from U of Michigian and Drexel med is so different. If you don't believe me, you can count the number of people who got accepted at a prestigious residency in a competitive field. U of michigian has 70 to 80% of people who got one of the top notch spot, while drexel has less than 10% of people who got into a top residency program. How do you explain this fact.

The fact that the type of people who get into U of M are the type of people who are more likely to score crazy high step 1 scores, arrange away rotations at the big programs they want to match into, and be very impressive in interviews. The same personalities, knowledge, skills, etc. that get them into a prestigious school is the type of people who get them into prestigious residencies.

It's self selection bias. It's not like U of M takes average or questionable admissions and turns them all into Neurosurgeons.

Let's say hypothetically, we have John Doe. 40+ on MCAT, great letters of recommendation, volunteers at a local hospice. He gets to pick between School A (super prestigious) and School B (not prestigious). Personally I think regardless of where that guy goes to school (assuming he doesn't burn out) that's the kind of guy who's going to get into a top residency no matter what school he goes in to. Will a "U of M" type school have an edge. Yes, but not a by a huge margin. If someone comes out of Podunk U school with an insane high step one score, they're not going to refuse him for some guy who got into Harvard medical school on hard work but then started slacking.