MFT, LPCC, PsyD ?

[cindypalau]

Hello everyone,

I have a Bachelor's of Business Administration (double major in International Business and Marketing) from Wichtia State University. After graduation, I went back to China working for about 3 years. I'm currently in CA. taking some psychology prerequisites for my higher psychology degree, and now I'm stuck! Not sure what to do next.

My situation is a little complicated, looking for professionals or people who's in the field for some advices and updated information. I really apprecaite your help !

1. How's the job market for MFT in California? If not, which state has a better need for MFT?
2. I've heard we only need 1-2 more classes to be eligible to sit for both LPCC and MFT exams. Is that true? Which one is more valuable?
3. Is having a PsyD more competitive than having a MFT/LPCC ?
4. Would my business background & experiences add value to this field or I should study Master of counseling or Organizational Psychology instead ? I'm trying to combine business with psychology together.

PS. I want to gain practical skills in order to find a job and have hands on experience.

---

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[PHD12]

Hello everyone,

I have a Bachelor's of Business Administration (double major in International Business and Marketing) from Wichtia State University. After graduation, I went back to China working for about 3 years. I'm currently in CA. taking some psychology prerequisites for my higher psychology degree, and now I'm stuck! Not sure what to do next.

My situation is a little complicated, looking for professionals or people who's in the field for some advices and updated information. I really apprecaite your help !

1. How's the job market for MFT in California? If not, which state has a better need for MFT?
2. I've heard we only need 1-2 more classes to be eligible to sit for both LPCC and MFT exams. Is that true? Which one is more valuable?
3. Is having a PsyD more competitive than having a MFT/LPCC ?
4. Would my business background & experiences add value to this field or I should study Master of counseling or Organizational Psychology instead ? I'm trying to combine business with psychology together.

PS. I want to gain practical skills in order to find a job and have hands on experience.

I have my PhD in clinical psychology and live here on the west coast. California is pretty much the most saturated state for mental health professionals (MFT, LPC, Psyd/PHD). The salaries are not up to par with cost of living. Most MFT graduates take on unpaid internships for 2+ years after they graduate in order to accrue 3,000 hours for licensure. Everyone I have met in CA with an MFT has informed me that it's tough to land any paid position after you graduate, and many are working in jobs as nannies etc. PsyD's overall do not do so well out here either. There are plenty of unpaid post-docs and post-dos that do not pay even minimum wage out here (17-20K for full-time work). Unless you go to a reputable program and land an APA internship, I don't think most PsyD's have good options out here and will not be living comfortably given high levels of debt.

If you want to stay in CA, I would look into organizational psychology or MBA programs. Unless you can get into a top funded PhD program....

 

[cindypalau]

Hello PHD 12,

Thank you so much for your commons and info, I was SHOCKed !!!
I was in UCR's MBA program because my bachelor's degree and all my experience are business related. The reason I switch is because I like psychology and counseling that I would love to help others and I really want to get into health care industry. I'm not sure I want to get into Clinical Psy since I don't really like abnormal psy instead I love social psy.

What about MPH, LCSW, would those be more valuable than MFT?

I'm open for any state, if CA. is the most saturated state, which state is better?

Appreciate it !!!

 

[PHD12]

Hello PHD 12,

Thank you so much for your commons and info, I was SHOCKed !!!
I was in UCR's MBA program because my bachelor's degree and all my experience are business related. The reason I switch is because I like psychology and counseling that I would love to help others and I really want to get into health care industry. I'm not sure I want to get into Clinical Psy since I don't really like abnormal psy instead I love social psy.

What about MPH, LCSW, would those be more valuable than MFT?

I'm open for any state, if CA. is the most saturated state, which state is better?

Appreciate it !!!

LCSW is going to be more marketable than an MFT out here. If you attend a state school like Berkeley, UCLA etc., you can also reduce debt significantly. It's a better deal than a PsyD that is not fundedl. If you don't want to get involved in research, an MSW is also a better fit. However, just know that mental health salaries are pretty low across the board (MSW, PsyD).

 

[Mindfulpsych22]

Hello PHD 12,

Thank you so much for your commons and info, I was SHOCKed !!!
I was in UCR's MBA program because my bachelor's degree and all my experience are business related. The reason I switch is because I like psychology and counseling that I would love to help others and I really want to get into health care industry. I'm not sure I want to get into Clinical Psy since I don't really like abnormal psy instead I love social psy.

What about MPH, LCSW, would those be more valuable than MFT?

I'm open for any state, if CA. is the most saturated state, which state is better?

Appreciate it !!!

I am a bit confused by this post. You said that you are interested in studying social psychology? Social psychologists obtain Ph.D.s in Social Psychology which is a research degree and does not make you eligible for any type of licensure. Social psychologists typically hold academic positions and conduct research as a career. My understanding of California licensure laws would be that an MPH would also not qualify you for any type of licensure.

It is a little unclear what you mean by "get into the health care industry."If you want to work with people directly, you would want to obtain a masters that will qualify you for licensure such as an LCSW or MFT. From what I've heard, LCSW offers you more career options and is more versatile. If you only want to work in some kind of administrative position and not directly with patients, an MPH may be a better option. Another possibility is to obtain a Clinical Psychology Ph.D. from a program that offers a health psychology concentration.

 

[cindypalau]

Hello Mindfulpsych22,

Thank you for your comments !

Sorry for the confusion. I'm currently taking Social psy, Abnormal psy and Developmental psy. Out of these three, social psy interested me the most! And you are right, I totally love to work with people (face to face interaction). Because I don't think I could handle Abnormal psy (not that into it), that's why I guess clinical psy might not be the best fit for me. And yes, I want to gain practical skills in order to be competitive in the job market, so that I could gain hands-on experience.

As you mentioned LCSW maybe more usable than MFT, what about LPC (Licensed Professional Counselors), LSW (Licensed Social Worker) and MSW (Master of Social Work)? What would you recommend among these five?

Really appreciate it!

 

[MBellows]

As you mentioned LCSW maybe more usable than MFT, what about LPC (Licensed Professional Counselors), LSW (Licensed Social Worker) and MSW (Master of Social Work)? What would you recommend among these five?

Master of Social Work (MSW) is the name of a master's degree that focuses on social justice with an emphasis on connecting people to social services and running those services. A number of these programs also include direct practice training which involves acting as a counselor/therapist, case worker, case manager, or other human service position that involves contact with individuals.

LBSW, LSW, LMSW, LCSW, ICSW and others are all types of licenses held by social workers. These licenses have various levels and are differentiated based on education level, supervised experience, ability to practice independently, and specialty (macro or micro (aka direct practice).

LPC's is a new license in California and it will take some time before it's really well accepted. Really the MFT in California is really more like the LPC everywhere else in the US. LPC's typically come from Master's programs in counseling psychology, counselor education, clinical mental health counseling, or other ___ counseling programs. Their license portability is currently very weak, but the American Counseling Association is working hard on that.

Another area that is related is Rehabilitation Counseling. People that graduate with master's degrees in this field can generally be licensed as LPC's but many don't go this path, but instead opt to get a Certified Rehabilitation Counselor (CRC) credential that allows them access to private and public jobs as rehabilitation counselors assisting people with disabilities gain an optimum level of personal independence through independent living, work accommodations, and job development. A growing area in Rehabilitation Counseling is in addictions work and a number of Rehabilitation Counselors obtain state licensure as addiction specialists (LCDC in Texas).

 

[MBellows]

Hello,
My name is Lauren and I will be graduating in August with a B.S. in Criminal Justice with a concentration in Justice Administration as well with my Chemical Dependency Counselor Assistant Certification.

If I am to go online what would be the best option and would I be as respected within the field if I took this route?

If you don't mind my asking, why are you going for MFT?

 

[Doctor Eliza]

Hello,
My name is Lauren and I will be graduating in August with a B.S. in Criminal Justice with a concentration in Justice Administration as well with my Chemical Dependency Counselor Assistant Certification. I am looking into various Marriage and Family Therapy programs in the area (central Ohio) and am considering Northcentral University. Now I am rather weary of online programs especially for a graduate program, however relocating is simply not an option at this time. University of Dayton has a campus in Columbus, Ohio where one is able to sit for their LPC licensure exam but sadly their program does not meet AAMFT's requirements for licensure. I recently e-mailed the board and they e-mailed a list of programs that would meet AAMFT's requirements.
The list was as follows:
"Any program that is accredited by COAMFTE meets this Board's preapproval.
Currently there are two programs in Ohio that are COAMFTE approved:

University of Akron (MS)
The Ohio State University (PhD)

Online Programs that are COAMFT Approved:

Northcentral University (MS)
Capella University (MS)

The following programs have been reviewed and are acceptable to this
Board for admittance to take the Marriage and Family Therapist
Examination. The coursework shown is required to meet this qualification.
Please note: these programs are not accredited by COAMFTE at this time.

Walden University: MS in Marriage, Couple, and Family Counseling
Wright State University: MS or MA in Marriage and Family Counseling"

If I am to go online what would be the best option and would I be as respected within the field if I took this route?

OSU has a good MSW program that would not require relocation and would be respected way more than something online. Why not consider that? What is your ultimate career goal?

Also, this post would be a better fit for the master's board.

Dr. E

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

If I am to go online what would be the best option and would I be as respected within the field if I took this route?

Honestly....I'm not sure if anyone working in the field would recommend an online degree. If you have a good local college/university (OSU definitely qualifies as that), then I'd encourage you to take that route.

 

[Balmoral]

OP, I think it is important to identify you career goals and then pick the program accordingly. If you want to do psychotherapy, all the above degrees will allow you to do so (once licensed) but there is a big difference between a 2.5 year clinical MA to 5+ years of doctoral training.

I am a LMFT in my state but I used to live in CA and many therapy providers there are MFTs. Interestingly, I read numerous posts from my local/regional e-mails about MFTs moving from CA to my area so I think it might be getting saturated in the west coast.

The benefit I see of a PsyD over MA level is that the doctorate might make a person a stronger candidate for an administrative position/supervisor. Personally, unless a program is funded, obtaining a PsyD to solely practice psychotherapy might not be the most practical (unless you have a niche set up already).

Probably the most flexible are LCSWs since they are recognized in medical settings; however, the duties typically are related to discharge planning and administrative work. My SW colleagues also say that the road to obtaining the 'C' is quite long since you first have to pass the 'M' licensing exam, meet a minimum amout of years/hours, then pass the 'C' exam (in my state). The burnout rate is extremely high too.


I initially went for my MFT because I wanted to be able to financially support myself during my doctoral training (unfortunately cost of living stipends weren't enough). It added 3 years but it provided me with a strong therapy background and I was more comfortable working in various modalities (e.g., couples, groups, family) than my doctoral peers. In my scenario, that was the best option for what I had at the time.

 

[cindypalau]

Hello MBellows,

Thank you for your very detailed explanation.
I have encounter another BIG question!

For getting a MFT, what are the main differences between private universities vs. public universities?
I realized for tuitions, the differences could be as huge as 60,000 in total. Are private schools gonna provide a better education and more net-work/job opportunities? In order to lands a good job in CA. which school has a better reputation and better connections with hospitals/clinics? I really appreciate your help!

Private universities
Chapman University
Alliant International University
The Wright Institution
Peppdine University

Public Universities:
SDSU
Cal State- Fullerton, Northridge, San Bernardino

 

[cindypalau]

Hi Balmoral,

Which state are you in?
After checking the licence exam for MFT for different states, I realized the hours required are very different.
In CA. it needs 3000, some states needs 1000, 2000, 3200 and so on. Would receving a licence from CA. also workable in any other states? Or every state is not reciprocate at all?

Thank you for your help~
Cindy

 

[Balmoral]

Hi Balmoral,
Which state are you in?
After checking the licence exam for MFT for different states, I realized the hours required are very different.
In CA. it needs 3000, some states needs 1000, 2000, 3200 and so on. Would receving a licence from CA. also workable in any other states? Or every state is not reciprocate at all?

I am currently in NY and every state is different when it comes to requirements. Since MFTs are relatively new here, there has been numerous changes since I obtained my license back in 2007. I would definitely look at the curriculum requirements for each state because that is what seems to be tripping many MFTs up when they come from other states into NY for licensure.

 

[PHD12]

Hello MBellows,

Thank you for your very detailed explanation.
I have encounter another BIG question!

For getting a MFT, what are the main differences between private universities vs. public universities?
I realized for tuitions, the differences could be as huge as 60,000 in total. Are private schools gonna provide a better education and more net-work/job opportunities? In order to lands a good job in CA. which school has a better reputation and better connections with hospitals/clinics? I really appreciate your help!

Private universities
Chapman University
Alliant International University
The Wright Institution
Peppdine University

Public Universities:
SDSU
Cal State- Fullerton, Northridge, San Bernardino

I wouldn't recommend any MFT program if you want to stay in CA. The general consensus (I have heard this from over 15 recent graduates) is that there are very few paid opportunities once you graduate. Most MFT's are working in unpaid internships for 2-3 years after they graduate in order to accrue those 3,000 hours. It's a raw deal after going to graduate school for 3 years. You will need someone to support you for many years. Median salaries are very low even once you are licensed.

Look into state MSW programs, like Berkeley, UCLA etc. They are cheaper and offer better job options than an MFT here. I would avoid the private professional programs you mentioned.

 

[cindypalau]

PHD12,

Thank you !

If MFT is not really for CA., any other states you would like to recommend? I'm pretty open for any location actually. I love about Psychology, that's why I'm worry how much psychology would be in the MSW program. Besides that I'm not confident I would get into UCLA or UC Berkeley since I don't have much expeirence in this field, all my experience are relate to business.

I'm quite confuse about the reason people choose between private or public schools. It seems Alliant and Chapman are both accredited by the COAMFTE. Any school/program that you would like to recommend with a nice reputation?

Appreciate it~

 

[Balmoral]

PHD12,

Thank you !

If MFT is not really for CA., any other states you would like to recommend? I'm pretty open for any location actually. I love about Psychology, that's why I'm worry how much psychology would be in the MSW program. Besides that I'm not confident I would get into UCLA or UC Berkeley since I don't have much expeirence in this field, all my experience are relate to business.

I'm quite confuse about the reason people choose between private or public schools. It seems Alliant and Chapman are both accredited by the COAMFTE. Any school/program that you would like to recommend with a nice reputation?

Appreciate it~

My experience might have been different since I completed my MA MFT in 2005. I graudated from one of the private schools (went there because I was familiar with a couple of their faculty) and had an excellent experience. Actually, my experience in that program set a strong foundation for my PhD work. I was taught the MMPI-2 (by a professor who published 1-2 articles on it yearly and actually authored one of the MMPI versions) and other assessment tools, performed experimental research, and learned EBT. I was fortunate to land a mental heath worker job in a relatively known hospital system while I was finishing up my undergrad so it provided me the work experience to eventually obtained a pretty good paying position while accruing my hours after I graduated. The tuition was definitely not too bad as other schools (I was also accepted to USC but declined because of the costs).

I think the psychotherapy island is extremely crowded and wherever you go, it will be challenging to find an internship/job/training site. You just have to find good mentors to walk you through the process. I was fortunate to have strong mentors in every stage of my academic career.

 

[cara susanna]

Yeah, I know an MFT in a very popular area of California who is still doing an internship after graduating a few years ago.

 

[cindypalau]

Hi Balmoral,

Do you know the top 3 states to practice as a MFT?
What are some of the best schools/MFT programs in the country?
Does school ranking matter a lot when it comes to job searching as an MFT?

Appreciate your help!

 

[Balmoral]

What do you mean by "top" states? What criteria are you looking at?

I guess "best" is too broad of a term. You can look at it through faculty, exam pass rates, etc. Are you looking for a "name" school?

I am not aware of any ranking systems for MFT programs. The job market is so saturated with MA level providers as practitioners of psychotherapy that I think specialized training would be more important. When I obtained my first few clinical positions after I completed my MFT, I got them probably because I had significant experience working with psychiatric patients, not because my school was ranked high on some list (although I did attend a very good school in SoCal, IMHO).

When I left CA, I had pretty good job security, but that was almost a decade ago. I'm in NYC now and I have seen many new transplants moving to NYC from various other states hoping to get started. Since MFTs in NY are new, there isn't a big market. In addition, psychiatry, psychology, and SW, still dominate the mental health field. You have 2 ends of the spectrum: CA with MFTs established but pretty saturated and NY with relatively fewer MFTs but the degree is still not well recognized.

 

[PHD12]

You absolutely have to consider cost of living in your calculation of where to live. Many MFT and PsyD graduates are going to be living in poverty conditions if they are located in parts of the country that have a high cost of living, particularly 5 years post-degree. Other parts of the country you can live very well on an MFT or PsyD/PhD income.

For example, I live in CA where the housing costs are 3-4 times the national average. You cannot buy a very old and small house for under 800K within 15 miles of where I live. I am renting a small place that is very expensive. I am paying $4.20 per gallon for regular, unleaded gas. Utilities are very high. Sometimes it gets to $5 per gallon. The state income tax is 10% if you make above 45K per year and is supposed to increase. My rental place attempts to increase the rent by 10-15% each year due to increased demand/housing shortages. As a psychologist/social worker/MFT, you will likely live below a middle-class level even if your salary sounds high unless you have a high-earning spouse/partner. I am living here for now because my partner has good job opportunities. I also love the weather and the quality of life (if you can afford it). Check out cost of living calculators online. You can also compare two cities.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Hi Balmoral,

Do you know the top 3 states to practice as a MFT?
What are some of the best schools/MFT programs in the country?
Does school ranking matter a lot when it comes to job searching as an MFT?

Appreciate your help!

1. Very subjective. As PHD12 mentioned....cost of living is a *huge* factor for certain states like CA. The MFT as a credential is accepted in most states, but also important is the preference of employers, as some employers will favor one credential over another.

2. "Best" and "Ranking" are both highly subjective and mostly a moot point because the credential matters more (as reimbursement is linked to licensure, not where you went to school). With that being said, avoid any program that will put you into significant debt. I'd avoid any program that is not housed in an established university. It makes ZERO sense to pay $50k or more in tuition to get a graduate degree that is not an MD/D.O.

3. The vast majority of programs will not help you get a job, but some of them can keep you from getting a job. You'll want to make sure the program allows you to be licensed in the state(s) in which you want to practice. You also want to avoid any online program and any for-profit program, as they are not well regarded.

 

[JAS333]

Master of Social Work (MSW) is the name of a master's degree that focuses on social justice with an emphasis on connecting people to social services and running those services. A number of these programs also include direct practice training which involves acting as a counselor/therapist, case worker, case manager, or other human service position that involves contact with individuals.

LBSW, LSW, LMSW, LCSW, ICSW and others are all types of licenses held by social workers. These licenses have various levels and are differentiated based on education level, supervised experience, ability to practice independently, and specialty (macro or micro (aka direct practice).

LPC's is a new license in California and it will take some time before it's really well accepted. Really the MFT in California is really more like the LPC everywhere else in the US. LPC's typically come from Master's programs in counseling psychology, counselor education, clinical mental health counseling, or other ___ counseling programs. Their license portability is currently very weak, but the American Counseling Association is working hard on that.

Another area that is related is Rehabilitation Counseling. People that graduate with master's degrees in this field can generally be licensed as LPC's but many don't go this path, but instead opt to get a Certified Rehabilitation Counselor (CRC) credential that allows them access to private and public jobs as rehabilitation counselors assisting people with disabilities gain an optimum level of personal independence through independent living, work accommodations, and job development. A growing area in Rehabilitation Counseling is in addictions work and a number of Rehabilitation Counselors obtain state licensure as addiction specialists (LCDC in Texas).

Really? So you would suggest going the MFT route other than LPCC? I'm looking into LPCC as of right now, but I unfortunately need more coursework in addition to my Master's, which I honestly do not want to do.

 

[JAS333]

I have my PhD in clinical psychology and live here on the west coast. California is pretty much the most saturated state for mental health professionals (MFT, LPC, Psyd/PHD). The salaries are not up to par with cost of living. Most MFT graduates take on unpaid internships for 2+ years after they graduate in order to accrue 3,000 hours for licensure. Everyone I have met in CA with an MFT has informed me that it's tough to land any paid position after you graduate, and many are working in jobs as nannies etc. PsyD's overall do not do so well out here either. There are plenty of unpaid post-docs and post-dos that do not pay even minimum wage out here (17-20K for full-time work). Unless you go to a reputable program and land an APA internship, I don't think most PsyD's have good options out here and will not be living comfortably given high levels of debt.

If you want to stay in CA, I would look into organizational psychology or MBA programs. Unless you can get into a top funded PhD program....

Interesting, I have a friend that is a licensed MFT and yes she is having trouble finding work, however I know in the Valley there are a lot of treatment residential centers opening up that are hiring licensed MFT's as their resident counselors, so maybe that would help. What do you think of LPCC?

 

[WisNeuro]

between MFT, LPCC, and SW, I'd go with social work