PhD/PsyD MFT vs. PsyD decision

[vonniebon]

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Hello-

I was recently accepted into two programs which were both my top choices as far as graduate programs.

-USC MFT program
-Wright Institute (Berkeley) PsyD program

I feel very humbled and blessed to be having these choices. I was hoping for some guidance and perspective from those in the field and what you have noticed.

I am leaning toward the doctorate because I love the diversity of what you are able to do. My ultimate goals are private practice, a bit of research, and enough knowledge to be able to provide input on public policy in the psych field. It's pretty much a complete package.

I do realize the price of both is pretty much the same around $100k. This is something I need to take into consideration bc of going to a private undergrad institution (which I am still paying back). One I will receive a MFT and the other a PsyD. I have visited, shadowed the Wright, but as far as being in the field I have no clue if it is well recognized and it's graduates are well recognized as good clinicians. Are they being employed? Do employers recognize the quality of the program-thus hiring their graduates?

The reason USC is on the table is because...well..it's US freaking C. It's well known in CA as well as nationally and the whole Trojan network. However, there is no research emphasis as other programs there. Another reason it is on the table is if I were to do well, I feel it would open doors to other more competitive PsyD programs.

I had the following questions and would appreciate any input/feedback/other things you think I should consider when making a decision.

-Are big names a huge deal in the field of psychology? How about the reputation for these two programs?
-Given the goals I have in mind, would a masters degree suffice or would a doctorate be needed?
-Does a doctorate open more doors? I am seeing more and more masters getting to exec level.

Thank you very much for reading.-von

 

[WisNeuro]

The Wright Institute does not have good outcome data. The accredited match rates hover in the 50-60% range. I am not aware of strong research training coming out of that place. The handful of apps I have reviewed from there did not look good and did not receive interviews.

 

[vonniebon]

Thanks WisNeuro for your input. I asked them this question about APA internship placement and what I keep hearing among students/staff is that it is moving toward mandatory APA internship (like PAU). It will be mandated for all students to apply for APA-not sure what you make of that.

 

[smalltownpsych]

It has worked for PGSP apparently. 100% past two years. Interesting development if more schools move in that direction. I think that my alma mater would get close to 100% easily as well, but not so sure about a program that has such a low rate currently such as the Wright Institute or other large cohort low match schools.

 

[vonniebon]

Thank you for the honest input. Do you all have any opinions on USC MFT and the prospects there? Yes the name is there, but my concerns are

-Cost
-No research emphasized even though it is at a research I school
-will it be enough to do all of the goals I would like to do

 

[docma]

Thank you for the honest input. Do you all have any opinions on USC MFT and the prospects there? Yes the name is there, but my concerns are

-Cost
-No research emphasized even though it is at a research I school
-will it be enough to do all of the goals I would like to do

The MFT is a more limited degree in terms of scope of practice and California is even more crowded with MFTs than PsyD/Phds. You will however, spend less time in school and the loan costs have to be less (not sure how you see both degrees as equal in cost). Master's levels degrees can get you many clinical employment opportunities but will not give you the research or policy options probably, unless you work up through an organization from clinical into management/admin positions. Both paths can get you to private practice but I wonder if you have a good understanding yet of all the work involved in that as a business? Do you have the option of deferring admissions and working a year in the field while you get more definition about what you want (and maybe earn something to offset debt load?) Getting clinical work experience pre-grad school can make everything clearer.

 

[vonniebon]

Hi Docma-thanks for your msg. I got the tuition fees for USC MFT program from here: http://rossier.usc.edu/programs/masters/mft/tuition/

Wright Institute costs: http://www.wi.edu/psyd-tuition-financial-aid

Wright is a bit more 20k. I have not even included living costs and all that.

Private practice is not something I am looking to do immediately. I do realize it is a business that comes with building client base, solid reputation, office leasing costs, etc. I am looking to work in the field for a while, get established, then consider it in a few years.

I have worked in the field for 3 years. I have done community based mental health work as well as case management. It's been non-profit work which doesn't pay much and why I haven't contributed as much as I would like to my undergrad loans. The good thing is through the work I do have some solid connections in my current area I'm living in. I am a bit older as well (late 20s) which is why I am concerned about job prospects so much. I'd like to just get my life stable and moving. I wouldn't mind doing a masters if I was younger, and then pursuing a doctorate but I feel at my age it might not be possible. I know it involves 2 yrs coursework + ~2 years supervised hours + another 5 yrs doctorate + post doc.

I am a minority and I've seen the need for different perspectives to mental health and incorporating diversity. This is why public policy is important to me because I would like to take that stakeholder stance in working with prevention programs and taking a closer look at what is working vs. not working-especially in the populations in which mental health is still stigmatized and are still underserved despite the growing number of diverse clinicians.

For WisNeuro and psycscientist-it sounds like you are working in a hiring/placement capacity. What are you looking for in the people you hire/place. What schools stand out to you as having good clinical training? Any specifically in CA?

Thanks again everyone-I appreciate your input in this decision.

 

[shrinkgirl15]

Hi! I've been researching PsyD programs as well and discarded Wright because of the low match rates. If you look on the APA website, they link to the outcomes sheet on the Wright website. There you'll see the match rate was 35% for APA internships in 2013-2014 (quite a bit lower in previous years). I know you said they're going to require applications to APA internships in the future, but I do wonder how much in the future (do they have a solid plan in place? Are they already rolling it out?) and how much it will change outcomes. Until I could see hard data, I likely would not apply. I just can't justify the cost if the program isn't going to do everything it can to assure its graduates are competitive. Just my $0.02!

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Being geographically restricted can significantly impact "fit", which is one of the most important aspects of the application process. It is common for a person to re-locate for doctoral training, then again for internship, and often for post-doc/fellowship (though this last step can often be done in a preferred area if you aren't in a highly competitive speciality area).

 

[vonniebon]

It sounds like what you want to do is along the lines of program administration/implementation/evaluation, if I'm understanding what you're saying correctly. If this is the case, I would recommend a Ph.D. A Psy.D. (other than Rutgers or Baylor) is not likely to give you the quality research and statistical skills you will need for that kind of work. It sounds like you may have to adjust your expectations for the career you ultimately do, or adjust your expectations about the time it will take you to pursue the necessary training to do that job. Within the context of my work at a research-intensive AMC, I evaluate postdoc applicants and also have a good track record of my Research Assistants gaining acceptance into quality Ph.D. programs. Primarily, I look for people who excellent clinical and research training and come from reputable programs. Some programs are known for producing poor quality applicants and the program name will count against you for some jobs. I can recommend programs in California, although applying based on location is a surefire way to not gain admittance (you should apply to schools that fit your research interests). With regard to programs I would recommend in California: UCSD, UCLA and USC.

Psycscientist-you hit the nail on the head and thanks for reading my vague idea of what I'd like to do and translating it into what is understandable for other professionals. 🙂 That is exactly what I am trying to do. I would like to eventually work up to that point where I can provide input to proponents of programs. But I would also like to have a strong clinical understanding to be able to provide therapy.

I guess I neglected the Ph.D. programs for 3 main reasons-
1. I have no research experience period.
2. I had always wanted to focus more on the clinical component. I figured the PsyD would provide just enough research to get to my public policy goals. In reading a few other forums about PhD vs. PsyD degrees, I had not realized that there are strong clinical programs as well that are in the PhD camp.
3. My undergrad GPA was not excellent esp. in sciences (Pre-med classes)

Having said that, I am now realizing it may be best to defer and possibly explore applying to PhD programs. I have a lot of clinical experience, but zero research experience. I'm assuming it is necessary for applicants to PhD programs to hold very strong research backgrounds? I wouldn't have any clue where to begin with that. I would definitely need to take the GRE once again to have a much higher score.

If I were to apply to PhD programs it would be this October or November which doesn't sound like a solid amount of time to be doing research (assuming I find a place that will take me with no experience...would be a good 4 months of research) What would be your recommendations?

My concern is also $$. Private is $100k and I'm just done with worrying about loans to have $1000+ payment per month. I'd rather wait and attend a school with more funding and better reputation. I know I will have loans either way, but anything that can help I am willing to take.

I also noticed the recommendation of looking at other program outside of CA. I am willing to do this as well. I just fear that by going outside of CA, if I would like to return to CA that these programs may not be as recognized. I am also worried about out-of-state costs. Thank you!

 

[WisNeuro]

I also noticed the recommendation of looking at other program outside of CA. I am willing to do this as well. I just fear that by going outside of CA, if I would like to return to CA that these programs may not be as recognized. I am also worried about out-of-state costs. Thank you!

If you go to a program that is fully funded (i.e., any reputable PhD) you will get full tuition remission whether or not you are in or out of state. And, I wouldn't worry about the reputation of going to an out of CA program, if anything, it's the other way around. CA is a hot bed of diploma mills.

 

[vonniebon]

If you go to a program that is fully funded (i.e., any reputable PhD) you will get full tuition remission whether or not you are in or out of state. And, I wouldn't worry about the reputation of going to an out of CA program, if anything, it's the other way around. CA is a hot bed of diploma mills.

Thanks for the info about the tuition remission WisNeuro-didn't know that.

So after soul searching I am considering going to pursue the MFT at USC. I feel like I need to raise my GPA which I can do with a masters, I'm just concerned about the research. It's not a heavily research focused MFT program. Would I be able to do research on the side so to speak? After that, I would like to pursue the PhD.

I have a few Qs about that route:
-Do PhDs programs see MFT degree as reputable?
-If the research piece is not emphasized, would I still have a chance?
-Have people done the MFT and gone straight to a PhD? Can one do the MFT hours while applying to PhD programs? (Basically can I go straight to PhD)
-Are there any renown PhDs in CA or outside of CA that are more clinical based?

 

[Chalupacabra]

Have people done the MFT and gone straight to a PhD? Can one do the MFT hours while applying to PhD programs? (Basically can I go straight to PhD)

Going straight from any related master's level program to Ph. D. is fairly common.

-Are there any renown PhDs in CA or outside of CA that are more clinical based?

Any good program will have a balance of clinical and research work. The programs you choose to apply to should in part be based on your research interests though - applying to a program just because it is highly regarded doesn't mean that it will be a mutually good fit.

 

[cara susanna]

I also noticed the recommendation of looking at other program outside of CA. I am willing to do this as well. I just fear that by going outside of CA, if I would like to return to CA that these programs may not be as recognized. I am also worried about out-of-state costs. Thank you!

Anecdotal, but I've never even lived in CA--attended a doctoral program in the Midwest and am doing my internship outside of CA--and I got offered a post doc there.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I also noticed the recommendation of looking at other program outside of CA. I am willing to do this as well. I just fear that by going outside of CA, if I would like to return to CA that these programs may not be as recognized. I am also worried about out-of-state costs. Thank you!

If you attend a decent uni-based training program, secure an APA-acred. internship, and secure a formal post-doc (whether that is a fellowship or not)….getting a job in CA should be possible. Staying in-state doesn't really help your chances because there are plenty of flat out bad programs in that state that would tank your chances at competitive jobs within the state.

 

[Sendtrees]

I join the advice of many here. Don't rush on the front end to get into a program. It is almost 100% certain that an MFT program with no research will not help you get into a PhD program AT ALL. That doesn't mean you can't have a good career as an MFT (although I think in California, it will be harder because the market is oversaturated). But if your goal is a doctorate in psychology, it is worth it in the long run to spend the next two years becoming competitive for a funded PhD program. What you don't want is to go to any doctoral program with bad outcome data--dismal APA accredited internship match rates, low EPPP passes, graduates not working in the field--and become a glum statistic. Don't worry about the school, worry about the program. If you have the constitution for $100-200K debt, at least spend a year upping your GRE scores, maybe taking a few additional classes at a state U to increase your GPA, and hold out for a well-regarded PsyD program. If you think you can't wait, at least take an hour here to read about the internship crisis, and then check in with yourself.