Mid to Top Tier Programs

[dafade]

Hey all; I'm finishing up my 3rd year at a state school in NY and will be applying for rads. I was just wondering how I can get a general idea of how to rate a program as low, mid or top tier (aside from the obvious top tier big guns of course) while I'm researching which programs to apply to.

Thanks!!

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[Zweihander]

Hey all; I'm finishing up my 3rd year at a state school in NY and will be applying for rads. I was just wondering how I can get a general idea of how to rate a program as low, mid or top tier (aside from the obvious top tier big guns of course) while I'm researching which programs to apply to.

Thanks!!

Honestly, unless you're pretty keen on staying in academia I'd rank programs based on how much you like them and how happy you think you'd be their.

"Prestige" is pretty overrated -- you'll do pretty well no matter where you go so long as you work hard and you study. You just don't want to be stuck somewhere for four years that will make you miserable.

 

[NYyanx28]

Honestly, unless you're pretty keen on staying in academia I'd rank programs based on how much you like them and how happy you think you'd be their.

"Prestige" is pretty overrated -- you'll do pretty well no matter where you go so long as you work hard and you study. You just don't want to be stuck somewhere for four years that will make you miserable.

I've been waiting for replies as I'm also a third-year. I think the OP was just hoping for a way to choose which programs to apply to since we are really in the dark about which ones are solid, good reputation, etc. outside of the notorious "p53 top 25" which seems self-serving and not necessarily helpful for the strong but not outstanding applicant.

Once we visit/interview, I'm sure we will choose our ROL based on the mentioned "feel" of the places.

 

[loljkttyl]

1) go here: http://radiology.matchapplicants.com/
2) click select program
3) compare avg step 1 scores between programs

note: someone on auntminnie pointed out you should subtract approx 5-10 points to correct for skewed sample size (i.e., people w/ higher step 1 scores were more likely to post their stats)

 

[Vizsla]

3) compare avg step 1 scores between programs

dunno how helpful this will be..according to this site, most top/very competitive progs have step avg of 250 with around 50% AOA applicants..sounds about right.

u can go by the p53 list altho it doesnt take location into account (ucsd much harder to match than mayo)

 

[2012mdc]

1) go here: http://radiology.matchapplicants.com/
2) click select program
3) compare avg step 1 scores between programs

note: someone on auntminnie pointed out you should subtract approx 5-10 points to correct for skewed sample size (i.e., people w/ higher step 1 scores were more likely to post their stats)

Thanks, this is helpful. Any other advice about good ways to "tier" the programs? I'm mainly applying to West Coast (want to return there) and Southern schools (med school is here and I know West Coast is very competitive) and some big names in the Northeast and Midwest. Just don't know how to evaluate the community programs that aren't big name as well as looking out for big name programs that are more reputation than anything

 

[MrBurns10]

Thanks, this is helpful. Any other advice about good ways to "tier" the programs? I'm mainly applying to West Coast (want to return there) and Southern schools (med school is here and I know West Coast is very competitive) and some big names in the Northeast and Midwest. Just don't know how to evaluate the community programs that aren't big name as well as looking out for big name programs that are more reputation than anything

Unfortunately, it's mainly just word of mouth. In general, the reputation of community programs isn't going to be as high as that of academic ones...but even that generalization doesn't always hold true (e.g. Beaumont and Henry Ford have very good reputations, on par with mid-tier academic programs). I would say that some of the smaller programs can have great reputations in their vicinity, so if you think you want to go to one of those, I would be thinking about where you want to settle down after residency and go to a program nearby.

Personally, I think the best thing anyone can do on interview day is to find out how the program is run (e.g. how much conference time per day? who's giving the conferences?) and ask the residents what they think about the program. If they feel the teaching is good and they're reading plenty of studies while at work, but not so many that they're not learning, it's probably a program that's going to provide a solid education. One caveat is that if you're interested in academics, I would try to stick to academic programs, particularly those that provide time for you to get involved in research.

 

[2012mdc]

Unfortunately, it's mainly just word of mouth. In general, the reputation of community programs isn't going to be as high as that of academic ones...but even that generalization doesn't always hold true (e.g. Beaumont and Henry Ford have very good reputations, on par with mid-tier academic programs). I would say that some of the smaller programs can have great reputations in their vicinity, so if you think you want to go to one of those, I would be thinking about where you want to settle down after residency and go to a program nearby.

Personally, I think the best thing anyone can do on interview day is to find out how the program is run (e.g. how much conference time per day? who's giving the conferences?) and ask the residents what they think about the program. If they feel the teaching is good and they're reading plenty of studies while at work, but not so many that they're not learning, it's probably a program that's going to provide a solid education. One caveat is that if you're interested in academics, I would try to stick to academic programs, particularly those that provide time for you to get involved in research.

Yeah I'm planning on applying to all the programs out West and most of the programs down South (incl Texas). I was really trying to find out "hidden gems" outside of those two regions that are good mid tier programs that aren't reaches or extremely competitive like MGH, MIR, UPenn etc. I just don't want to make the mistake of applying to too few programs or not having the right mix. On AM I got some suggestions like Mount Auburn, Beth Israel and St. Luke's in NY and I was looking for some more. Thanks

 

[MrBurns10]

Yeah I'm planning on applying to all the programs out West and most of the programs down South (incl Texas). I was really trying to find out "hidden gems" outside of those two regions that are good mid tier programs that aren't reaches or extremely competitive like MGH, MIR, UPenn etc. I just don't want to make the mistake of applying to too few programs or not having the right mix. On AM I got some suggestions like Mount Auburn, Beth Israel and St. Luke's in NY and I was looking for some more. Thanks

I don't know the community programs well as I didn't apply to any, but as I mentioned you could check out Beaumont and Henry Ford in Michigan if you're cool with the cold weather. One of my classmates last year matched at Beaumont after ranking it above several well-respected academic programs. For less competitive but well-respected academic programs, there's Indiana (which is borderline top tier but not quite as comparatively competitive due to its location), Iowa, U of Florida, Wisconsin, UAB, Maryland, off the top of my head. I don't know if that's what you're looking for, but there you go.

Anyway, I personally think you're applying to way too many programs. You have very good stats, and I think you already have a good mix of programs. Just my opinion.

 

[2012mdc]

I don't know the community programs well as I didn't apply to any, but as I mentioned you could check out Beaumont and Henry Ford in Michigan if you're cool with the cold weather. One of my classmates last year matched at Beaumont after ranking it above several well-respected academic programs. For less competitive but well-respected academic programs, there's Indiana (which is borderline top tier but not quite as comparatively competitive due to its location), Iowa, U of Florida, Wisconsin, UAB, Maryland, off the top of my head. I don't know if that's what you're looking for, but there you go.

Anyway, I personally think you're applying to way too many programs. You have very good stats, and I think you already have a good mix of programs. Just my opinion.

Thanks. UAB and UF are definitely on my list. I've heard conflicting opinions about my stats and since I'm coming from a low tier med school and will end up with none or little research I figured I should apply broadly. Rather spend the extra money than run the risk of going unmatched. It's still early though so my list is pretty fluid

 

[Regrettable]

I think the OP was just hoping for a way to choose which programs to apply to for the strong but not outstanding applicant.

Definitely, definitely apply to any program in your region you'd even consider going to. 95 % of my interviews came from schools within like 200 miles of my medical school - even though I'm from a completely different part of the country and even though I applied very broadly. I was really disappointed with the lack of interviews I got outside of this little bubble.

I'd characterize myself as strong-but-not-outstanding.

 

[2012mdc]

Definitely, definitely apply to any program in your region you'd even consider going to. 95 % of my interviews came from schools within like 200 miles of my medical school - even though I'm from a completely different part of the country and even though I applied very broadly. I was really disappointed with the lack of interviews I got outside of this little bubble.

I'd characterize myself as strong-but-not-outstanding.

About how many programs did you apply to?

 

[luvsthedarkroom]

As an applicant with little research experience from a school in the midwest, here's my piece of advice to current 3rd year students who want to try to break that regional bias.

1) Make contact with programs as early as possible so that you can used that effort in future letters of interest

I was looking for a research month early in my 4th year and basically emailed programs outside of my region during of my 3rd year. Some didn't reply back, but about 25% of them forwarded my request to those who would help me in their department. I eventually did a month of radiology research at a solid academic program in the east coast.

When it came to interviews, I was able to email program coordinators with a letter of interest that referenced correspondences that I made with them 6-8 months ago. As a result, I ended up getting an interview at a top 10 NIH program and a mid-tier one on the west coast. I'd like to think that being proactive early helped me with getting these interviews. Hope this helps.

 

[Regrettable]

About how many programs did you apply to?

Heh, at the risk of discrediting myself, I applied to 63 radiology programs.

In retrospect, that was way too many.

61 university programs and only 2 community programs. That was another mistake.

 

[a winner is you]

Find a place you fit in well and where you enjoy the work environment. This isn't like college or med school anymore where you can choose who to hang out with. You're going to be working with these people for 4-5 years whether you like it or not.

 

[quietude]

Heh, at the risk of discrediting myself, I applied to 63 radiology programs.

In retrospect, that was way too many.

61 university programs and only 2 community programs. That was another mistake.

63 is not terrible, although it's on the outlier of numbers I've heard. Most people I know applied 30-55, depending on how competitive the cities they wanted were and the total strength of their app. There is always that one kid whose app is shaky (chill, anonymous readers, we are talking Step 1 < 215) who is dual-applying med-rads and applies to 80 rads or so.

To those M3s reading this, you should definitely apply to a decent mix of community programs. I am not sure how they got a rep as somehow worse programs. They have different strengths. Academic programs have Dr. Bigshot but his tiny slice of specialty will only be a thousandth of a percentage of your training. University doesn't mean large number of residents, and fellows can either help your teaching or take away from it. You can run the risk of getting lost in the crowd, or having a PD and chair who is more interested in the RVUs of his attendings than in resident training and happiness. There are many positives that can balance these out that are obvious so I won't rehash them here. Just important to think about the possible downsides.

Community programs have volume and tend to be more laid-back working environments (some are understaffed but none will volunteer that information until the interview). Fellowships are still easy to walk into. Many community programs have academic affiliations that give you a relaxed environment with high-powered teaching and research. Some people learn best in self-starter environments and solo call reading the whole hospital, or want a place where it is okay to sneak off and read for an hour if all the current studies are boring. Unless you have your heart set on name-brand academic radiology as a career, you really don't know if you would prefer a community program to a university one until you get there and feel out the program for yourself. It is a ridiculously program-specific spectrum. Try to save the generalizations about what you want until you have been on a few interviews.