Military Vets not URM? Why not?

[Pianoman32]

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Why aren't military vets given URM status in the app process? They are more under-represented than any group in medicine. They face higher rates of drug abuse, violence, homelessness, mental illness/suicide, educational barriers, etc. than any other group out there.

People say that African Americans are given an advantage because they make up 10% of the population, yet only fill up 3% of the applicant spots. They say that African Americans tend to understand one another better. Why isn't this same logic applied to military vets? Wouldn't a military vet be able to better understand the struggles of that homeless vietnam vet when they rotate through the VA? Why the double standard in the process? Aren't military vets more likely to serve their population? Haven't military vets struggled in their pursuit to become physicians?

*******Possible Answers**********
-It's based on past racial struggles.
My Response: I completely understand the racial struggles that African Americans have had to endure. They deserve to be given some leeway in the process for this. However, this part of the argument breaks down when Hispanics are thrown into the mix. Asians are not given URM status, yet they have faced much more racial discrimination over that past 50 years than that of Hispanics. Muslims are not given URM status, but have faced much more racial discrimination over the past 10 years than that of Hispanics.

-It's based on socioeconomic status.
My Response: Well there are rich black people and poor white people. Why not make the whole system based on socioeconomic status? Also, the veteran community is much more socioeconomically disadvantaged than that of the African American Community.

-it's based on the disparity of the amount of physicians and the amount of people in the population
My Response: I've already covered this. Vets have just as much of a disparity in serving their population that that of present URM's

-Vets are already given significant advantages in the app process.
My Response: Once again there is a disparity among the amount of prior vets gaining admission to medical school and the amount of vets in the population. Secondly, I am yet to see a military vet get the URM boost. Lastly, I also say this as a white veteran who applied economically disadvantaged and was given a fee waiver for their mcat and for applications to schools. I had decent stats (balanced 30, 3.9), good EC's (while working throughout college), applied to 18 schools, and received only 2 interview invites. I didn't even receive an invite from my state school which is not a powerhouse.

-You realize there are URM's in the military right?
My response: No ****! African Americans who have served in the military have had to face two sets of struggles in their life. Why not reward the military struggle?

-Stop complaining!
My Response: I'm not complaining. I gained acceptance to 1 med school and am very happy where I am. I have nothing to gain by improving admissions to medical school for vets. However, I would like to look out for the veterans who come after me, and the more people who argue on their behalf, the more likely they will get the chances deserve.



Any thoughts, or have I answered all of my criticism?

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[Gifted Hands]

I think it's an interesting question that I've never really thought about...


I know next to nothing about this topic so please don't bash me if I'm completely wrong, but could it be that military vets are provided health care? They certainly have unique issues that they must deal with that a military physician would be able to understand their issues. I don't think there is really issue of health care disparities for veterans like their is for underserved communities... but, again, I have no clue if this assumption is correct.

Also, doesn't the military have their own physicians? I know their is a military medical school and military scholarships that have a commitment to serve for X amount of years.

It's a really interesting question. This whole process is such a mystery. I've done a lot of homeless healthcare so I've talked with a lot of military vets that ended up homeless. They are a unique population with a lot of issues specific to their experience as veterans

 

[Pianoman32]

I posted originally in the Underrepresented in healthcare section, but I figured I would get better discussion here and the discussion would also involve individuals other than current URM's.

 

[Pianoman32]

Hey I'm moving the thread to the pre-med forum.....there seems to be more lively chat there and individuals from more diverse backgrounds.

-I'll answer your thread there (i'm talking to you of course gifted hands)

 

[QofQuimica]

Hey I'm moving the thread to the pre-med forum.....there seems to be more lively chat there and individuals from more diverse backgrounds.

-I'll answer your thread there (i'm talking to you of course gifted hands)

Since you wanted your thread in PA, I've merged them together here. I will also restore the OP for you. Please remember that you should not post the same thread in more than one forum.

 

[Pianoman32]

Since you wanted your thread in PA, I've merged them together here. I will also restore the OP for you. Please remember that you should not post the same thread in more than one forum.

Hey, I appreciate it. Thanks for the help and sorry for the hassle.

 

[sustentacular]

I think it's an interesting question that I've never really thought about...


I know next to nothing about this topic so please don't bash me if I'm completely wrong, but could it be that military vets are provided health care? They certainly have unique issues that they must deal with that a military physician would be able to understand their issues. I don't think there is really issue of health care disparities for veterans like their is for underserved communities... but, again, I have no clue if this assumption is correct.

Also, doesn't the military have their own physicians? I know their is a military medical school and military scholarships that have a commitment to serve for X amount of years.

This is what I thought when I read the OP. There is a whole system of hospitals already dedicated to veteran care.

Also, URM "advantage" isn't designed to make up for socioeconomic disparities, it's merely intended to increase the number of physicians from those demographics.

 

[Pianoman32]

I think it's an interesting question that I've never really thought about...


I know next to nothing about this topic so please don't bash me if I'm completely wrong, but could it be that military vets are provided health care? They certainly have unique issues that they must deal with that a military physician would be able to understand their issues. I don't think there is really issue of health care disparities for veterans like their is for underserved communities... but, again, I have no clue if this assumption is correct.

Also, doesn't the military have their own physicians? I know their is a military medical school and military scholarships that have a commitment to serve for X amount of years.

It's a really interesting question. This whole process is such a mystery. I've done a lot of homeless healthcare so I've talked with a lot of military vets that ended up homeless. They are a unique population with a lot of issues specific to their experience as veterans

Why would I bash you? It was a very insightful response.

Disabled vets and lifers (more than 20 years of service) are provided healthcare. Someone who serves less than 20 years and is given an honorable discharge does not receive free health care. They have to pay just like everyone else in the system. Also, the veterans that are seen at the VA are not seen by military docs, but are seen by doctors who work for the VA. Yes, there are prior military docs in the VA, but most are civilian (same for the nurses too).

The military has their own physicians, but these individuals serve current military, not vets. Most of these physicians also have not served in the military prior to being a military doc so vets are not really helped in the process of admissions because vets are not given an advantage.

Also, equating being given a military scholarship to serve 3 tours of duty in iraq to giving an advantage for being an URM is kind of ludicrous.

 

[QofQuimica]

Hey, I appreciate it. Thanks for the help and sorry for the hassle.

NP. 🙂

In answer to your question, one of the biggest differences between ethnic/racial groups and other underrepresented groups such as veterans is that no one has a choice concerning whether to belong to a certain ethnic or racial group. There is also nothing that one can do throughout their life to change ethnicities or races. Once you are born into that group, you remain there for the rest of your life. (I am ignoring here the fact that "ethnicity" and "race" are often not defined the same way in other countries as they are here in the U.S.)

In contrast, no one becomes a veteran without choosing to join the service, assuming they were not drafted. Since you are a premed, my guess is that you joined the service some time well after 1973, which is when the U.S. military moved to an all-volunteer system. Thus, it is not reasonable to argue that a vet's circumstances are analogous to those of someone who was born black, Native American, or Hispanic.

People from low SES are not in a completely analogous situation to URMs either. Although they did not choose to be born in a low SES family, they do have some level of opportunity to change their circumstances due to their own decisions and hard work. This is the crux of what we call the "American dream." Again, however, a non-white person cannot ever choose to become white.

Now, in response to what your main point was in creating this thread (i.e., why do vets not get special consideration), the answer is that actually, they do. At my school, we specifically ask on the secondary whether an applicant is a vet. Many members of the adcom regard vets highly, as they tend to be more mature, disciplined, and hardworking. Offhand, I can't think of a single situation where prior military service with an honorable discharge would be seen as anything but a positive.

Similarly, applicants are given the option to apply to medical school as "underprivileged" if they are from a low SES household, are the first in their family to attend college, or have had other socioeconomic hardships beyond what the typical premed experiences. There is also a space on most schools' secondaries where applicants are able to describe their circumstances, even if they choose not to write about them in their PS. The adcom takes this information into consideration when making admissions decisions.

Keep in mind that adcoms are composed of multiple people with multiple beliefs about what constitutes a good applicant and a good class composition. I won't deny that we could make our admissions decisions much more objective than they currently are if we relied more heavily on stats. In many other countries, everyone who wants to attend medical school takes a national test, and the highest scoring students are admitted. However, I think most of us reading this thread would agree that stats should not be the sole determiner of whom we admit to medical school. In return for placing this burden on the adcom to consider other "life factors", we must be willing to accept that our system will have a significant degree of subjectivity in it.

 

[sustentacular]

Someone who serves less than 20 years and is given an honorable discharge does not receive free health care. They have to pay just like everyone else in the system. Also, the veterans that are seen at the VA are not seen by military docs, but are seen by doctors who work for the VA. Yes, there are prior military docs in the VA, but most are civilian (same for the nurses too).

Vets who don't receive free care can still be seen at the VA though right?

Do veterans who are seeking medical care specifically look for MDs who are also vets? How would you even go about searching for such a doctor?

 

[theWUbear]

Vets may be at a lower percentage in the physician population than they are in the overall population, but so are lawyers and carpenters. The point here? They are occupations, not races. The URM designation does not apply.

That being said, one would hope that military service does confer an advantage in the admissions process due to the tremendous sacrifice given (and actually, I do see parallels to race in that veterans are more likely to work in veterans hospitals...but that begs the question of whether or not there is a shortage of doctors in the veterans' system or a need to worry about that?). If medical schools are actively asking whether one has served in the military and considering that significantly, as a previous poster said, that is a great thing. Looks like the system currently takes that into consideration.

 

[Bernoull]

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Why aren't military vets given URM status in the app process? They are more under-represented than any group in medicine. They face higher rates of drug abuse, violence, homelessness, mental illness/suicide, educational barriers, etc. than any other group out there.

People say that African Americans are given an advantage because they make up 10% of the population, yet only fill up 3% of the applicant spots. They say that African Americans tend to understand one another better. Why isn't this same logic applied to military vets? Wouldn't a military vet be able to better understand the struggles of that homeless vietnam vet when they rotate through the VA? Why the double standard in the process? Aren't military vets more likely to serve their population? Haven't military vets struggled in their pursuit to become physicians?

*******Possible Answers**********
-It's based on past racial struggles.
My Response: I completely understand the racial struggles that African Americans have had to endure. They deserve to be given some leeway in the process for this. However, this part of the argument breaks down when Hispanics are thrown into the mix. Asians are not given URM status, yet they have faced much more racial discrimination over that past 50 years than that of Hispanics. Muslims are not given URM status, but have faced much more racial discrimination over the past 10 years than that of Hispanics.

-It's based on socioeconomic status.
My Response: Well there are rich black people and poor white people. Why not make the whole system based on socioeconomic status? Also, the veteran community is much more socioeconomically disadvantaged than that of the African American Community.

-it's based on the disparity of the amount of physicians and the amount of people in the population
My Response: I've already covered this. Vets have just as much of a disparity in serving their population that that of present URM's

-Vets are already given significant advantages in the app process.
My Response: Once again there is a disparity among the amount of prior vets gaining admission to medical school and the amount of vets in the population. Secondly, I am yet to see a military vet get the URM boost. Lastly, I also say this as a white veteran who applied economically disadvantaged and was given a fee waiver for their mcat and for applications to schools. I had decent stats (balanced 30, 3.9), good EC's (while working throughout college), applied to 18 schools, and received only 2 interview invites. I didn't even receive an invite from my state school which is not a powerhouse.

-You realize there are URM's in the military right?
My response: No ****! African Americans who have served in the military have had to face two sets of struggles in their life. Why not reward the military struggle?

-Stop complaining!
My Response: I'm not complaining. I gained acceptance to 1 med school and am very happy where I am. I have nothing to gain by improving admissions to medical school for vets. However, I would like to look out for the veterans who come after me, and the more people who argue on their behalf, the more likely they will get the chances deserve.



Any thoughts, or have I answered all of my criticism?

Great thoughtful post...

Firstly I don't think that the goal of reducing healthcare disparities by, among other things, matriculating a student body that is likely to serve underserved populations is incompatible with increasing matriculation rates of Vets. If vets are underserved, then this should be redressed. Now the question becomes how does the matriculation of more vets help reduce healthcare disparities wrt vets? I ask this because vets primarily (not exclusively) get care from VA centers so unless there's a way to ensure a good percentage of graduating doc serve at VA hospitals, I don't see how this alleviates healthcare disparities wrt vets?


Another point is that minorites serve in the military at disproportionately higher rates...

For the Army active duty (FY 2008) US Census (FY 2008)
Whites = 62.7% Whites = 75%
Blacks = 19.8% Blacks = 12.4%
Hispanics = 10.9% Hispanics = 15.4%
Asians = 3.4% Asians = 4.4%
Other = 3.2% Other ~ 3.3%

Again I think that special programs to benefit Vets will disproportionately benefit URMs and we'll be right back to the whole URM furore...

On a tangent, I have immense respect and admiration for anyone who serves in the military. I think anyone willing to make the ultimate sacrifice should have special consideration for admissions purposes. If injured, they should get the very best medical care (irrespective of cost), they should get full scholarships (irrespective of cost) for any and all programs of study. As a nation, we owe them nothing less. It's expensive, i know, war is expensive. If we are not willing to do this, then we should go to war far less often!!!

 

[Pianoman32]

Vets who don't receive free care can still be seen at the VA though right?

Do veterans who are seeking medical care specifically look for MDs who are also vets? How would you even go about searching for such a doctor?

Yes, vets can still be seen at the VA; however, they still have to pay just like if they received care from a civilian doctor unless they have a service connected injury/disability. I don't know if you remember but there has been huge controversy over the whole PTSD diagnosis. Something like 30,000 individuals were discharged for so called personality disorders that occurred before they entered the service. Anyway, when they got to researching it, they found that the majority of these individuals suffered from PTSD, depression, or some other service connected mental disability. The military chose to discharge these individuals w/ personality disorders because then they would not have to pay anything for their future healthcare....really disgusting if you ask me.

 

[Sir Buckethead]

Q of Quimica summed up the whole issue well enough that really theres nothing left to say:

1: URM applies to racial/ethnic identity.
2: Veteran status is in fact an advantage, and looks very good on your app.

So don't worry.