MMI Dilemma.

[TigerClaws]

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I have a dilemma regarding the MMI interview process, especially when ethical questions involving friends are posed. One question that I came across was along the following lines...

"You are a new tenant at an apartment building and your friend who is a relatively poor wants to use the gym at your building to get back in shape after a recent childbirth. How would you approach this situation?"

Most of, if not all, the responses I came across in such issues adhered to the contract set forth by the apartment building and helping the friend find alternate routes for working out. In reality, I believe, the interviewees in such situations would not act that way and definitely share the code/key with their friend. So, they basically are lying to impress the interviewer. I understand why they would lie, and I also understand why they would share the access in a real life scenario. It is a human thing to do, and I know I would share. Before some counters that they wouldn't, I want them to think about how many times they've used a friend's netflix account, HBO go account (yes, even if it was only once for watching Game of Thrones), X-box live account, etc... Added to that, I think a better person (yes, even a better doctor) would share the access in this case. I mean do you really want a fellow doctor to be as callous and a stickler for rules?

By posing such question where the answers are obvious lies (even the interviewer knows that they are), aren't MMIs loosing credibility? Are they really testing the ethical propensity of the interviewees with such questions?

(Sorry about errors in my writing, I am a bit socially lubed to escape the thoughts of my impending MMI tomorrow)

 

[V5RED]

I would be surprised if the gym had a code since it would need to be changed any time a person moved out. I would also be surprised if they gave you more than one key. In a realistic apartment gym(based on where I have lived and where my friends have lived) you use the one and only key you have to get in. I would not give that key to my friend, but I would not have an issue with my friend working out there with me.

Edit: Also, Netflix is designed to be shared. You can make multiple profiles on your account and you can pay for various numbers of simultaneous users to be streaming at once.

 

[TigerClaws]

I would be surprised if the gym had a code since it would need to be changed any time a person moved out. I would also be surprised if they gave you more than one key. In a realistic apartment gym(based on where I have lived and where my friends have lived) you use the one and only key you have to get in. I would not give that key to my friend, but I would not have an issue with my friend working out there with me.

I guess, I meant access. My past apartments have always had codes for the gym though.

 

[baxt1412]

the apartment complex not only restricts it to tenant access for money reasons (you pay rent which indirectly supports the upkeep and purchasing) but also most likely for liability issues. the landlord may not be covered by their insurance for non-residents.. not sure.

but what is your dilemma? if you don't want to lie, then don't. if you don't care about lying, then do whatever you want.

just because it is something that you would consider doing doesn't mean all people would consider doing it. don't just assume everything is a lie in this situation.

i think the MMI is meant to test stress and critical thinking moreso than actual ethics. or at least also meant to test these things, if not mostly.

 

[Narmerguy]

MMI's don't have a demonstrably "right" answer, though some answers are easier to defend well than others. I never had to lie in my MMI's, and if given a question like this, I would likely admit that I would let the friend access the gym. The MMI's are not morality tests, they're based on ability to reason and express one's decisions to others. Presumably you have some reason for why you would let the friend use the gym even if it's against the rules, so make your case. Nonconformity doesn't hurt you so don't worry about what the other applicants are saying.

 

[TigerClaws]

the apartment complex not only restricts it to tenant access for money reasons (you pay rent which indirectly supports the upkeep and purchasing) but also most likely for liability issues. the landlord may not be covered by their insurance for non-residents.. not sure.

but what is your dilemma? if you don't want to lie, then don't. if you don't care about lying, then do whatever you want.

just because it is something that you would consider doing doesn't mean all people would consider doing it. don't just assume everything is a lie in this situation.

i think the MMI is meant to test stress and critical thinking moreso than actual ethics. or at least also meant to test these things, if not mostly.

My dilemma is this... The whole point/premise of MMIs is to predict an applicants ethical acuity and ability to remain true to his/her convictions (yes, even under stress), and this question doesn't test either of those. If the applicant is lying, he is neither being ethical nor sticking to his convictions. And if an applicant actually follows the rules in this case, I believe, he can never be a truly compassionate and caring doctor.

And a usual MMI session is littered with such questions, that don't elucidate (cannot possibly -- due to everyone lying and trying to impress the interviewee) the true personality of the applicant. I think they are just there to intimidate ethical applicants. That's my point.

Do we want robots and computers as future colleagues and doctors, or do we want humans? I know, if I get asked this question, I am going to lie, so it doesn't make a difference in my case, but these questions point to the candidates that the schools actually want. And it is scary that the preferred answer (at least it seems to be) is that you would actually deny your friend access to a the gym, because you of a contract (which most of the time the apartment company also breaks). And if you really want an unemotional robot that doesn't test the boundaries set before it by its "ethical" overlords... don't worry, IBM's Watson has got you covered.

 

[baxt1412]

My dilemma is this... The whole point/premise of MMIs is to predict an applicants ethical acuity and ability to remain true to his/her convictions (yes, even under stress), and this question doesn't test either of those. If the applicant is lying, he is neither being ethical nor sticking to his convictions. And if an applicant actually follows the rules in this case, I believe, he can never be a truly compassionate and caring doctor.

And a usual MMI session is littered with such questions, that don't elucidate (cannot possibly -- due to everyone lying and trying to impress the interviewee) the true personality of the applicant. I think they are just there to intimidate ethical applicants. That's my point.

Do we want robots and computers as future colleagues and doctors, or do we want humans? I know, if I get asked this question, I am going to lie, so it doesn't make a difference in my case, but these questions point to the candidates that the schools actually want. And it is scary that the preferred answer (at least it seems to be) is that you would actually deny your friend access to a the gym, because you of a contract (which most of the time the apartment company also breaks). And if you really want an unemotional robot that doesn't test the boundaries set before it by its "ethical" overlords... don't worry, IBM's Watson has got you covered.

so following the rules set forth, of which you have no say, is being a robot, uncaring, and shows a lack of compassion?

it'd be different if these were rules that you actually had a say in making, but it's not technically your place to be deciding who is worthy enough to have the rules bent or broken for them in this case.

 

[Ace Khalifa]

Why can't you be a caring, compassionate person while also following the rules and adhering to the law to the best of your ability? If I couldn't personally help someone because it would break the rules, then I would refer that person to someone who would be able to help them legally.

I have not yet had an MMI, but I don't think everyone would lie and give the "correct" answer (because there isn't one...).

 

[G_Marker]

I would definitely not share the code, and I don't think any friend of mine would expect me to, either. I might ask my landlord for permission if he/she is particularly friendly with me. Otherwise, I'd just direct my friend to a different gym. There are some really cheap gyms available now (~$10/month). Alternatively, we could work out together (without a gym!).

Why do you assume we'd all break the law for something like that? I don't really think it's the 'compassionate' thing to do anyway. There are plenty of other legal ways to work out - you don't even necessarily need a gym to do it.

 

[shenellica]

I would not share the code and I wouldn't consider someone who would knowingly ask me to break the rules to be my friend. My reason for this is that I have a child and I would not do anything to jeopardize our living situation. Just like when I become a doctor I wouldn't do anything for anyone that would jeopardize my license or career.

 

[PlaqueBuster]

With MMI's you need to take a stance and back up the stance with facts. If you said yes or no to this question you have to give reasons as to why you are supporting that claim. At the same time you have think of the opposite of the argument and understand any counterclaims. You cannot just say "I feel it the right thing to do" because that is your opinion. If you can analyze the question, then your responses for an MMI will be valid.

You also have to separate what you may be inclined to do in real life with what will have to do in a professional setting. Many of these MMI scenarios are created to assess your ability to act professionally and ethically. So understand that and stop thinking that people are lying. I would call that acting professionally.

 

[Goro]

This is in the same realm of "if you saw your classmate cheating, what would you do?"

OR
"If you could go to Harvard or here, which school would you choose.?"

As you point out, this merely sets up the interviewee to tell a lie, because we simply know what people would really say outside of an interview.

I never ask these types of questions, and get annoyed when my colleagues do.

I have a dilemma regarding the MMI interview process, especially when ethical questions involving friends are posed. One question that I came across was along the following lines...

"You are a new tenant at an apartment building and your friend who is a relatively poor wants to use the gym at your building to get back in shape after a recent childbirth. How would you approach this situation?"

Most of, if not all, the responses I came across in such issues adhered to the contract set forth by the apartment building and helping the friend find alternate routes for working out. In reality, I believe, the interviewees in such situations would not act that way and definitely share the code/key with their friend. So, they basically are lying to impress the interviewer. I understand why they would lie, and I also understand why they would share the access in a real life scenario. It is a human thing to do, and I know I would share. Before some counters that they wouldn't, I want them to think about how many times they've used a friend's netflix account, HBO go account (yes, even if it was only once for watching Game of Thrones), X-box live account, etc... Added to that, I think a better person (yes, even a better doctor) would share the access in this case. I mean do you really want a fellow doctor to be as callous and a stickler for rules?

By posing such question where the answers are obvious lies (even the interviewer knows that they are), aren't MMIs loosing credibility? Are they really testing the ethical propensity of the interviewees with such questions?

(Sorry about errors in my writing, I am a bit socially lubed to escape the thoughts of my impending MMI tomorrow)

 

[cs24]

This is in the same realm of "if you saw your classmate cheating, what would you do?"

OR
"If you could go to Harvard or here, which school would you choose.?"

As you point out, this merely sets up the interviewee to tell a lie, because we simply know what people would really say outside of an interview.

I never ask these types of questions, and get annoyed when my colleagues do.

This is one of the few times I would have to disagree with you Goro. We do MMIs at my school, and I've been an interviewer for several. If I was grading someone with this scenario, I would expect them to tell me what they honestly think, and the "letting person use the code" answer would in no way hurt them as an applicant. I would just want to hear their reasoning behind it. If it was something silly and immature like "authority sucks and they have no right to tell me how I use my own gym" well sure that wouldn't be a great interview, but on the other hand you could say something like "well this is a really good friend of mine and I know about the health benefits of exercise and want to encourage her along that path/the gym is normally empty and having an extra person in there wouldn't prevent anyone else from using the equipment and I would make sure she went at non-peak hours blah blah blah" or you could make a compromise and say you wouldn't give her the code but you would invite her to come use the gym with you at the same time so you could get in shape together... Point is there are infinite "right" answers to an MMI and what really matters is how I interact with you as a person and if you are mature, can see multiple perspectives, etc etc. This wouldn't be a question designed to trip up an applicant, at least not at my institution (nor, I believe, most others that use MMIs).

 

[Goro]

Fair enough!!!

This is one of the few times I would have to disagree with you Goro. We do MMIs at my school, and I've been an interviewer for several. If I was grading someone with this scenario, I would expect them to tell me what they honestly think, and the "letting person use the code" answer would in no way hurt them as an applicant. I would just want to hear their reasoning behind it. If it was something silly and immature like "authority sucks and they have no right to tell me how I use my own gym" well sure that wouldn't be a great interview, but on the other hand you could say something like "well this is a really good friend of mine and I know about the health benefits of exercise and want to encourage her along that path/the gym is normally empty and having an extra person in there wouldn't prevent anyone else from using the equipment and I would make sure she went at non-peak hours blah blah blah" or you could make a compromise and say you wouldn't give her the code but you would invite her to come use the gym with you at the same time so you could get in shape together... Point is there are infinite "right" answers to an MMI and what really matters is how I interact with you as a person and if you are mature, can see multiple perspectives, etc etc. This wouldn't be a question designed to trip up an applicant, at least not at my institution (nor, I believe, most others that use MMIs).

 

[steelersfan1243]

This is in the same realm of "if you saw your classmate cheating, what would you do?"

OR
"If you could go to Harvard or here, which school would you choose.?"

As you point out, this merely sets up the interviewee to tell a lie, because we simply know what people would really say outside of an interview.

I never ask these types of questions, and get annoyed when my colleagues do.

Wait sorry to bump this thread, but the second question "If you could go to Harvard or here...", adcoms really expect you to say their institution?

 

[cardzkp]

Wait sorry to bump this thread, but the second question "If you could go to Harvard or here...", adcoms really expect you to say their institution?

Dont you think it boils down to your actual attributes? For some, yes, they applied and are a good fit, but for others, maybe not. For example I'm an average applicant with a LizzyM of 70.5, but if a school asked me that, my honest answer would probably be against HMS. I don't belong there, my stats don't belong, I'm probably not a good fit compared to the rest of the class. Imposter syndrome would kick in. I don't know - I think name recognition and top-tiers are important, but good steps and grades could net you most residencies out of a somewhat reputable MD institution.

 

[Goro]

We expect you to be honest.

The trouble is, most interviewees immediately think "I'll say what I think they want to hear..."

Although I think the "true believers" of my DO colleagues will want you to say our school. I love my school and its students, but if I could send my kids to Yale, Stanford, or Harvard, I'll send them there!

Wait sorry to bump this thread, but the second question "If you could go to Harvard or here...", adcoms really expect you to say their institution?

 

[Glazedonutlove]

We expect you to be honest.

The trouble is, most interviewees immediately think "I'll say what I think they want to hear..."

Although I think the "true believers" of my DO colleagues will want you to say our school. I love my school and its students, but if I could send my kids to Yale, Stanford, or Harvard, I'll send them there!

You're saying if I ranked the school as third or something, I wouldn't get rejected?

 

[Goro]

Just be honest and say why your choices are what they are, and have an open mind. If you don't take the seat, after all, it will simply go to someone else.

You're saying if I ranked the school as third or something, I wouldn't get rejected?

 

[wasteofspace323]

About 3% of me likes to think that ADCOMS have a brain and this is actual a subtle test of how well you can lie in your presentation of yourself to a patient. In other words, you want idiots to think you're a saint which is important to maintain the masturbatory "prestige" of this business. While this is ultimately self serving and unethical, its entirely logical and reasonable.

97% of me thinks that there are legitimately people who sit on admission committees who are that out of touch with reality. I mean, who actually believes that shlock?

 

[Oh_Gee]

Dont you think it boils down to your actual attributes? For some, yes, they applied and are a good fit, but for others, maybe not. For example I'm an average applicant with a LizzyM of 70.5, but if a school asked me that, my honest answer would probably be against HMS. I don't belong there, my stats don't belong, I'm probably not a good fit compared to the rest of the class. Imposter syndrome would kick in. I don't know - I think name recognition and top-tiers are important, but good steps and grades could net you most residencies out of a somewhat reputable MD institution.

Wouldn't it be an insult to that school if you said that you wouldn't want to go to HMS because the people there have higher numbers?