Money Going In...

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bobsacamenoh

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This might be too personal, but how much money did you have saved up before you started optometry school? What would be a good number to strive for to cover those "surprise" costs during the 4 years? Naturally one would like to have some money in the bank, but could loans alone cover these costs?
 
I also went in with very little. Literally 500 or so dollars. I lived off of student loans and a work study job till my military money started coming in later on.
It seems most common that students will live almost exclusively on student loans. Considering many will pay back up to $2 or more for every dollar borrowed if you follow the (IMHO) poor advice of extending your loans to 30 years, it is in your best interest to live like a very poor person. B/c you are. And interest rates are rising for those just entering school. Don't count on having 3% interest like some of us already working. Compounding interest on a 130,000 dollar loan at 4,5,6% over THIRTY years leads to vast quantities of money payed back for every little trip, new wardrdobe, extra (useless in many cases) textbooks, extra (useless in many cases) equipment.

If I could give one piece of advice - don't buy the nicest, most expensive ophthlmoscopes or other ophthalmic equipment- it is a ridiculous waste of money and is almost a crime that schools push these salesmen on you. Most scenarios when you are working after graduation will already have equipment, or you can buy it yourself for almost the same price as in school in the rare case that you will need to.

I have worked with many, many different sets of equipment and it works almost the same in all cases - you will never care about the tiny differences when you're in the real world
 
ArgyllRobertson said:
I also went in with very little. Literally 500 or so dollars. I lived off of student loans and a work study job till my military money started coming in later on.
It seems most common that students will live almost exclusively on student loans. Considering many will pay back up to $2 or more for every dollar borrowed if you follow the (IMHO) poor advice of extending your loans to 30 years, it is in your best interest to live like a very poor person. B/c you are. And interest rates are rising for those just entering school. Don't count on having 3% interest like some of us already working. Compounding interest on a 130,000 dollar loan at 4,5,6% over THIRTY years leads to vast quantities of money payed back for every little trip, new wardrdobe, extra (useless in many cases) textbooks, extra (useless in many cases) equipment.

If I could give one piece of advice - don't buy the nicest, most expensive ophthlmoscopes or other ophthalmic equipment- it is a ridiculous waste of money and is almost a crime that schools push these salesmen on you. Most scenarios when you are working after graduation will already have equipment, or you can buy it yourself for almost the same price as in school in the rare case that you will need to.

I have worked with many, many different sets of equipment and it works almost the same in all cases - you will never care about the tiny differences when you're in the real world

I don't agree with the statement about student loans. Even with interest rates rising, I would suggest extending the repayment to the maximum time and making the minimum payments. Even a large amount of debt will only be $500-600 per month. Keep in mind that this is a fixed expense. The $500 might be a lot today, but 20 years from now, $500 will not be the same as what it is now. Often times over 30 years you will do much better in investments than you can by repaying your student loans as fast as possible.
Repaying your student loan will give you a 6% rate of return on a 6% student loan. (Actually less, since a portion of it is tax deductable.) Over 30 years, you should definately be able to do better than 6% by putting your money elsewhere.

I DEFINATELY agree with the statement about equipment though. Most of mine sat in my closet for years until I opened my office. Every place I worked at had equipment that was at best better than mine or at worst, functional.

Jenny
 
$0.99 stores are your friends. 😀
 
Extension of loans immediately after graduation is certainly an option. But there are several reasons I think it is a poor choice. I think everybody has different attitudes towards money and tolerance for debt. That being said, here are my reasons why I think the way I do:

1) You need to take into account inflation. 6% interest does not equate into a 6% increase in spending power the following year. take off 2 or 3 percent.

2) What happens when your student loan rates are 5%? Or 6%? This is certainly possible in the near future. Just as interest rates can tank, they can go up. Talk to some graduates from the last few decades paying higher percentages. We are at ridiculously low interest rates now and that can't last forever. (hopefully I am wrong!) Throw in inflation and you're going to have to make some nice investments to come out ahead.

3) Compounding on a huge student loan does most of it's damage when the balance is high. The opposite is true for your investments. You aren't going to be seeing huge increases in your initial investment till many years down the road towards your retirement years. I am not a CPA or particularly numbers savvy so I can't tell you when it is appropriate to put more money towards a legendary (albeit) historic 6to 8% return in stock market vs paying down your current loans. There is probably a tipping point there somewhere. I have recently become interested in this topic and if I can come up with some equations I will post. I am not advocating paying down your loans at the expense of all other investments.

4) Probably the kicker for me is this: student loan debt is non-forgiveable. That means you cannot declare bankruptcy and be free of them. Ever. They are with you for the rest of your life, like herpes. They will hang over you constantly and affect your decision-making. I cannot be sure of this but I believe I have seen that if you die your spouse then becomes responsible. Maybe someone can advise me on that.

5)We cannot be certain optometry in its current form will be around in 10,15,20 years. There are NO guarantees in life folks. And certainly not in business or medicine. What happens if the ground falls out and opticians gain refracting priveleges? That is a distinct possibility down the road. (we need to fight this tooth and nail) Optometry as a profession will never go away, but high demand and the job market may go away, and if that happens it is going to be musical chairs. Don't be the last one standing...
You cannot be "pie in the sky" when it comes to your financial security. Who's looking out for you? Nobody. You have to protect yourself and make smart decisions. "Most" of us I would bet don't want to be working for peanuts with 6 figure loans, or trying to retrain into another profession when we're 40, with 6 figure loans we can't unload. To me that doesn't make good sense. But I defer to those who are optomistic.

6) High student loan debt will make you unattractive in terms of obtaining loans. For your private practice, home, whatever. You are going to have to have a "reasonable debt load" in the eyes of the finance guys for them to think you can hack paying back all your debts.


For those who are eternal optomists, I salute you. This profession needs optomists! But I disagree that carrying a huge debt load for your first 10 to 15 years out of school is a good idea. You can't assume the current patterns will hold. I would advise paying down rapidly to a "reasonable" level, and THEN extending payment. Sacrifice early.
 
ArgyllRobertson said:
Extension of loans immediately after graduation is certainly an option. But there are several reasons I think it is a poor choice. I think everybody has different attitudes towards money and tolerance for debt. That being said, here are my reasons why I think the way I do:

1) You need to take into account inflation. 6% interest does not equate into a 6% increase in spending power the following year. take off 2 or 3 percent.

2) What happens when your student loan rates are 5%? Or 6%? This is certainly possible in the near future. Just as interest rates can tank, they can go up. Talk to some graduates from the last few decades paying higher percentages. We are at ridiculously low interest rates now and that can't last forever. (hopefully I am wrong!) Throw in inflation and you're going to have to make some nice investments to come out ahead.

3) Compounding on a huge student loan does most of it's damage when the balance is high. The opposite is true for your investments. You aren't going to be seeing huge increases in your initial investment till many years down the road towards your retirement years. I am not a CPA or particularly numbers savvy so I can't tell you when it is appropriate to put more money towards a legendary (albeit) historic 6to 8% return in stock market vs paying down your current loans. There is probably a tipping point there somewhere. I have recently become interested in this topic and if I can come up with some equations I will post. I am not advocating paying down your loans at the expense of all other investments.

4) Probably the kicker for me is this: student loan debt is non-forgiveable. That means you cannot declare bankruptcy and be free of them. Ever. They are with you for the rest of your life, like herpes. They will hang over you constantly and affect your decision-making. I cannot be sure of this but I believe I have seen that if you die your spouse then becomes responsible. Maybe someone can advise me on that.

5)We cannot be certain optometry in its current form will be around in 10,15,20 years. There are NO guarantees in life folks. And certainly not in business or medicine. What happens if the ground falls out and opticians gain refracting priveleges? That is a distinct possibility down the road. (we need to fight this tooth and nail) Optometry as a profession will never go away, but high demand and the job market may go away, and if that happens it is going to be musical chairs. Don't be the last one standing...
You cannot be "pie in the sky" when it comes to your financial security. Who's looking out for you? Nobody. You have to protect yourself and make smart decisions. "Most" of us I would bet don't want to be working for peanuts with 6 figure loans, or trying to retrain into another profession when we're 40, with 6 figure loans we can't unload. To me that doesn't make good sense. But I defer to those who are optomistic.

6) High student loan debt will make you unattractive in terms of obtaining loans. For your private practice, home, whatever. You are going to have to have a "reasonable debt load" in the eyes of the finance guys for them to think you can hack paying back all your debts.


For those who are eternal optomists, I salute you. This profession needs optomists! But I disagree that carrying a huge debt load for your first 10 to 15 years out of school is a good idea. You can't assume the current patterns will hold. I would advise paying down rapidly to a "reasonable" level, and THEN extending payment. Sacrifice early.

I understand the points made, but I disagree. You are right. There are no guarantees regarding the profession. But there is also no guarantees that Al Qaida will not set off a nuclear bomb tomorrow. You can't think that way though. I am one of the graduates who is paying a "higher" percentage than those quoted. Still, over a 30 year period even conservative portfolios should be able to beat student loan interest. You are right that most of the compounding is done early in student loans, and late in retirement planning but that's the point. The money that you invest instead of using to pay your student loans should be LONG term investments. High student loan debt will not make you unattractive if your monthly payment is low. You will probably be MORE unattractive with a 10 year repayment schedule and a high monthly payment than a 30 year repayment scheudule and a low monthly payment. Student loan debt is looked upon a lot more favorably than credit card debt or other consumer debt.

I DON'T advise paying down rapidly and then extending payment. The point of investing is to do it early. A 5 year wait in starting will result in 10s of thousands of dollars lost after years of compounding. Student loan debt may be non forgivable but the student loan default rate for ODs is vanishingly small.

Jenny
 
I see your points and I agree with them on principle. I think we are "disagreeing" on a small point.

Some graduates are coming out with 150,000, 170,000 or more in loans (- I'm looking at you ICO, amongst others). I don't believe it is healthy, financially or mentally, to HOPE that past patterns hold, the stock market keeps going up, up, up; the profession maintains plentiful and lucrative positions for all new grads (this is a debatable point), etc.. You get a guaranteed return when you are paying off your debt. It's a solid, tangible thing.

This is about protecting yourself and feeling in control. You do not feel in control with gigantic loans (what is unreasonable? It seems most OD's I've spoken with think anything over 130,000, 140000 is becoming "ridiculous"). You will live in nervousness, with that ball and chain around your leg, hoping against hope that your private practice makes it, or your lease will be renewed, or that refracting rights aren't expanded to opticians, which would absotely decimate the profession. Student loans are not like a mortgage or credit card debt. You can't just declare bankruptcy and wipe it clean. That kind of debt is much more tolerable, IMHO. I'm not trying to be a pessimist! We all HAVE to be optimists to go into this profession and someday, become small business owners and practioners. I want private practice to thrive - why do you think new grads go into Wal-marts? Because of their loans. Period.

These are all just my opinions. I am not forcing them on others, or you JennyW. It sounds like you have been practicing for awhile now and I will defer to your experience and perspective. I could be very wrong.

I think we will largely have to agree to disagree on this. Like I said before, everybody has different attitudes towards money and tolerance for debt.
We'll let the audience decide.
 
Regarding the loan officer question: One option is to extend or consolidate (if this is still a good option - Congress is leaning very hard towards making all new consolidated loans after 2006 variable-rate) and then just make more than the miminumum payment as you are able or desire to do so.

When you apply for loans, your montly obligation (how much you HAVE to pay) toward your loan will be much smaller on paper than you are actually paying.
 
This may sound a bit off topic, but I guess it relates to money and loans etc. But why would some school ask you on your appliation to indicate how are you going to pay for your tution? whether it's loans, federal loans, a private company, your parents, or yourself? Why would they care anyways?
 
Katalio said:
This may sound a bit off topic, but I guess it relates to money and loans etc. But why would some school ask you on your appliation to indicate how are you going to pay for your tution? whether it's loans, federal loans, a private company, your parents, or yourself? Why would they care anyways?

They might just want you to start thinking about that. So you can plan ahead accordingly. I don't recall having to answer that when I applied anywhere.

FYI, I am somewhat cynical towards optometry schools these days, so in my twisted thoughts they are probably just making sure you can make your tuition payments each semester to keep their operation going. They don't want to take up a valuable revenue spot with a student who bails after a semester or one year. That's a lot of lost income for the school (I'm talking primarily about private schools).

I have a question for ICO students: back when I was looking at schools one of the knocks on ICO was that they routinely admitted 10 or more extra students with the intent, or expectation, that they would fail out after a year or two. This would provide abundant extra income for the school. That smelled like a major conspiracy theory, a little too crazy, a little too mean-spirited to be true. Is that rumor still out there or was it just some bs??
 
Back in the early and mid 90's that was true about ICO. It used to be a "weed-out" school. Now, with the past two presidents (of the school) that we have had, that hasn't been the case. Now, our retention rate is around 98%.
 
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