More PhD and MD Confusion

[Wahooali]

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So, I am in the midst of a freakout at the moment. Most people do not understand where I am coming from or am thinking, but I am certain some of you can relate to my current state of confusion and self-doubt, so here goes...

My Story:
- UNDERGRAD: Graduated in 2003 with a B.S. in Chemistry from an excellent university. GPA: 3.35. Took MCAT twice: 22P (immaturity & misbubbling incident), 27P (screwed up on Verbal, bah!). Tons of extracurriculars: a little research, sorority President, Honor council, Leadership organizations, volunteering, etc.
- SINCE GRADUATION: 3 years full-time research with 3 publications, certified EMT-B with 1 year volunteer service.
- APPLIED for Fall 2005 matriculation => 2 interviews, 2 waitlists, no acceptances.
- SUMMARY: So, as you can see I am one of those "on the bubble" applicants. I could apply again right now as is, and I could get in, or I could not get in again.

After all that, I decided I would table the whole med school thing for a little while and go to graduate school instead, since there is no rush and it just wasn't meant to be right now. So, I have applied to graduate school for a PhD in Biochemistry, and have been admitted to some top programs. But I am now freaking out about it! I love science, I really do, I enjoy working in the lab, and I am very good with the bench work. But I don't know if I can cut it in graduate school. I don't know if I understand the material well enough to excel in it. I definitely did just enough to get by in undergrad, and didn't really learn the stuff, and I've had time off, so I feel like I am behind. And if that is the case, and I know I still want to go to medical school some day anyway will I be wasting 4-6 years of my life struggling to get my PhD? I'm just so confused and scared of failing and scared of never getting into med school....and I think I will stop my incoherent ranting now.

Anyone been through something similiar, or know of someone who has? Any input and comfort is greatly appreciated. If you have made it this far down in my thread you are fabulous, and deserve a hearty thumbsup. 🙂

 

[sanford_w/o_son]

if you see time spent getting a phd as a waste of time in your life despite loving science, then you should think twice. getting a phd to increase your chances of getting into med school is a mistake. a phd requires enough effort that it should only be striven for if it is a necessary element of your career plan and not as a means to unrelated ends. i think you will regret it if your primary reason for getting one is getting into med school. spend less time studying for the mcat instead, and kill the bear!!! what one can do, another can do. "i'm going to kill the bear," say it!

 

[QofQuimica]

Ok, first of all, I can tell you that if you're not totally committed to earning that Ph.D., you should definitely do something else. Grad school can be hell sometimes, and unlike college or med school, you don't just complete a certain number of credits and then you're out. You're out when your committee says you've done enough work and you can write it up and defend now. This could be longer than the five years they tell you; six years is common, and I've known people to take seven or even eight years. Four years for an experimental degree is a pipe dream in most cases unless you are very, very lucky. If you do go through with your Ph.D., you'll understand very quickly yourself why I'm scoffing at that idea.

Second, most people come into grad school with nothing but a BS degree. So everyone basically doesn't know too much. You were able to gain admission to grad school, so they think you have a chance to be successful. That being said, the attrition rate in grad school is very high. At least half of the people I started with either left with their MS or dropped out altogether. Most people do not drop out because they flunked their classes, although that happens. Most people drop out for personal reasons that are not directly related to their capability: they get married and drop out, they decide that they'd rather do something else, they are just kind of going through the motions and they don't study enough to pass their quals, they get offered a job, etc. But the point is, IF they were committed, and IF they were willing to study hard, they would have been capable of passing. You probably are, too.

That being said, I don't have the impression from your post that you really WANT to get a PhD, and that is the biggest thing that should be worrying you. Because if you don't really want to get it, you very likely won't. Even if it's true that your science background is weak, you can take remedial coursework and you can learn the science; that won't be a problem. But, if what you really want to do is go to med school, then I think you should consider doing a MS for a year or two, and then apply to med school. It's a much shorter commitment, and you can always extend it to a PhD if you decide that you love your research so much that you want to continue with it.

Hope this helps, and good luck to you. 🙂

 

[njbmd]

So, I am in the midst of a freakout at the moment. Most people do not understand where I am coming from or am thinking, but I am certain some of you can relate to my current state of confusion and self-doubt, so here goes...

My Story:
- UNDERGRAD: Graduated in 2003 with a B.S. in Chemistry from an excellent university. GPA: 3.35. Took MCAT twice: 22P (immaturity & misbubbling incident), 27P (screwed up on Verbal, bah!). Tons of extracurriculars: a little research, sorority President, Honor council, Leadership organizations, volunteering, etc.
- SINCE GRADUATION: 3 years full-time research with 3 publications, certified EMT-B with 1 year volunteer service.
- APPLIED for Fall 2005 matriculation => 2 interviews, 2 waitlists, no acceptances.
- SUMMARY: So, as you can see I am one of those "on the bubble" applicants. I could apply again right now as is, and I could get in, or I could not get in again.

After all that, I decided I would table the whole med school thing for a little while and go to graduate school instead, since there is no rush and it just wasn't meant to be right now. So, I have applied to graduate school for a PhD in Biochemistry, and have been admitted to some top programs. But I am now freaking out about it! I love science, I really do, I enjoy working in the lab, and I am very good with the bench work. But I don't know if I can cut it in graduate school. I don't know if I understand the material well enough to excel in it. I definitely did just enough to get by in undergrad, and didn't really learn the stuff, and I've had time off, so I feel like I am behind. And if that is the case, and I know I still want to go to medical school some day anyway will I be wasting 4-6 years of my life struggling to get my PhD? I'm just so confused and scared of failing and scared of never getting into med school....and I think I will stop my incoherent ranting now.

Anyone been through something similiar, or know of someone who has? Any input and comfort is greatly appreciated. If you have made it this far down in my thread you are fabulous, and deserve a hearty thumbsup. 🙂

Hi there,
I would disagree with your self description as a "bubble candidate". Your GPA is pretty low for most applicants today and your MCATs are dismal and mediocre respectively. You also relate that you would be "wasting 4-6 years of my life struggling to get my Ph.D" which does not bode well either. Your history of "doing just enough to get by" has really hurt your chances of getting into medical school which has become and will be more and more competitive as each year passes.

You need to do some major damage control at this point. Your best option would be something like the very expensive Special Masters Degree in Physiology at Georgetown University. Needless to say, you would have to ROCK in this program. By successfully completing this program, you would have clear evidence that you could successfully navigate a very demanding medical school curriculum. (I use the SMP at Georgetown only as an example of the kind of program that you are going to need. There are others out there so do some searching.)

The other thing that you need to work on is correcting your habit of "doing the bare miminum to get by". This can kill you in any academic endeavor(especially graduate school) and can be the final "nail in your coffin" in terms of getting into medical school. You are in direct competition with approximately 45K+ applicants most of whom have been going all out, full tilt and taking no prisoners. Get your academic problems worked out before you spend any more tuition money.

njbmd 🙂

 

[Wahooali]

Just to clarify, the tone of my post is from mid-what-am-I-to-do-with-my-life-freakout, so it sounds much more negative and uncommittal towards a PhD than I actually am. I have wanted to pursue my PhD for a while. This is not at all just about getting into medical school. I had considered doing an MD/PhD before, but as you can see from my stats, that would not be feasible. But now that the time to start my PhD study is getting closer, I am freaking out, questioning everything, and feeling like maybe this isn't right for me, and maybe I can't handle it. That is all.

Thanks for the input (especially QofQuimica for addressing my main grad school concerns).

 

[Wahooali]

...and you can close this thread now. I've heard all I need to.

 

[Scottish Chap]

Having gone through graduate school myself, I can tell you that the classes at the front end are difficult and they intimidate many people, but they have absolutely no bearing whatsoever on your scientific potential. If you have the hunger for bench work that you convey, you'll be successful, I promise you. The real issue I see is that you convey quite strongly that you do not want to earn a Ph.D. and this will be a real problem in putting together a solid scientific thesis. You absolutely, unequivocally NEED the hunger for data and you MUST want to be there to get the data or you'll end up miserable and you'll probably quit after a disagreement with your P.I. over your work ethic or your level of motivation. Much like Q said, around 30% of the Ph.D. candidates in my program ended up this way and they quit after several years - some of them without their masters degree - and many of those folks did extremely well in the classes at the start.

You were good enough to secure two interviews to medical school and, most often, it's not solely academic reasons that lead to a waitlist once you're at the interview. Of course, I don't know you, but I would honestly say that you should figure out exactly what you want to do before you go any further or you may be perceived as a lukewarm applicant to medical school which is nightmarish, and that's the kiss of death when thousands of extremely able, highly-motivated candidates are waiting right behind you for that spot.

While earning a Ph.D. is a very rewarding endeavor, you don't need it to gain medical school entry so I would focus on strengthening your medical school application. If you want it badly enough and you are willing to do everything in your power to gain admission, people will give you a chance, but you must prove that you want it. With a successful M.S. program like njbmd recommended or, with an impressive showing on the MCAT, there's no reason why you can't transform your two medical school waitlists into several acceptances in another application cycle. Good luck!

 

[sanford_w/o_son]

please don't get so defensive. we're trying to prevent you from making a big mistake. you say you've wanted a phd for a long time, but now you're not sure it's what you want. well, no one can tell you what to do one way or another without knowing your career goals. WHAT are your career goals, and WHY does an phd or md fit with them? if you don't answer this question now, you will while getting a phd, and you may not like the answer. the phd i'm getting is not in a science, but my experience jibes with q: people tend to drop out for motivation reasons and not because they can't hack it. so i expect you can handle the challenge of the phd, but the big question is whether you will want to. if you don't see a phd in your career goals, then i wouldn't do it.

EDIT: get motivated, kill the bear!

 

[db1]

Don't go to grad school to get into med school, especially if you don't really want to do research. They do not count your grad GPA when you apply to med school, so you will still be dealing with a low GPA. I had pretty much the same undergrad GPA you did and went to grad school after not getting into med school. After finishing my Ph.D. I reapplied to med school. Having a Ph.D. from a top 10 medical school doesn't carry as much weight as you might think it does. I smoked the MCAT and that was enough to convince the committee that I could handle med school. But this is definitely the long way around, and I would not do it again. I want to do research, but there are plenty of other opportunities to do research during medical school and residency. A surgery resident I work with in the lab is getting his Ph.D. The program pushes the residents through in 3 years. So you could get a Ph.D. twice as fast while making double the money.

You are better off doing postbac work for a year or two, but you need to work hard and get A's. Like njbmd said there are plenty of specialized programs, but even if you don't do one of those, you can probably set up a curriculum with your pre-med advisor. Retake the MCAT, and study like crazy. I really liked the ExamKrackers books. Also, take every practice test you can, and time them like the real MCAT.

 

[relentless11]

Wahooali,

Based on what you said, I think a post-bacc program would be better for you, or at least a masters program. The former would allow you to boost your GPA, and give you more time to study for the MCAT. While the latter will give you less of a committment compared to a full PhD program.

In my opinion, a PhD program, or any program for that manner (MA/MS, post-bacc, SMP) will not help you get into med school if you are totally miserable, and/or do crappy in it. As stated by many, PhD programs may take some time. The courses are challenging, and depending on the program, may be up to par with med school courses. As you stated your undergrad habits may not be up to the challenge. Therefore I suggest you focus your time on developing new skills, motivation, self-confidence, and discipline to overcome whatever limited your academic abilities during your undergrad career. Because many (if not all) grad programs (masters and PhD) may boot you out if you get a single B-, and this is usually based on an 80%. Conversely, if fear is a good motivator for you, perhaps grad school isn't a bad thing. I've been living in fear of getting a B- for the past year that I've been maintaining a 4.0..lol.

You know yourself the best, so you are the best one to decide. I personally had a sub-3.0 undergrad GPA. Our grad program advisors doubted my ability, and reluctantly let me in because of my 36 MCAT score (GRE waived). Anyway all doubts were gone by the end of the first quarter...so you do what you gotta do. I knew I could cut it, I just needed the chance. I knew this because I was able to get A's and B's during post-bacc. Therefore perhaps you should take a few undergrad courses spring semester/quarter, and/or summer session. If you prove to yourself that you can do it, then why not go with a masters program (and bump it up to PhD later), or continue on as a post-bacc? 🙂