Most selective DO schools have higher MCAT average than lower MD schools

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123456789DO

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The new, updated USNews medical school rankings which contain all the new admissions data (GPA and MCAT) for the class entering Fall 2008 shows that the most selective DO schools have surpassed multiple U.S. MD schools with regard to average MCAT score for the most recent entering class. To access the full data, you need a subscription to the USNews website which costs $15, but I'll paste the relevant info below.

Here are the top DO schools' average MCAT scores for the class entering in Fall 2008 (enrolled students):

Western University: 9.3
Touro University (CA): 9.3
University of North Texas: 9.2
UMDNJ: 9.0
Univ. New England: 9.0
Des Moines Univ.: 9.0
Touro University (NY): 9.0*

* This school is not listed in USNews, but the MCAT data is listed on school website: http://www.touro.edu/med/demo2012.html


Here are the lowest MD schools' average MCAT scores for the class entering in Fall 2008 (enrolled students) (which all fall below the highest DO school, i.e. 9.3):

Meharry: ~7.5-9*
Morehouse: ~8-9*
Howard: 8.4
University of North Dakota: 9.1
Mercer University: 9.1
University of New Mexico: 9.2

* (not reported to USNews, but this website says 7.5 for Meharry and 8 for Morehouse, though these are probably a year old: http://www.mcattestscores.com/usmedicalschoolsmcatscoresGPA.html)


Here are the next set of MD schools which have average MCATs for class of 2008 (enrolled students) which are equal to, 0.1 pt. or 0.2 pts (or 0.6 pts overall) higher than the highest DO schools:

Northeastern Ohio Univ. College of Med: 9.3
University of South Carolina: 9.4
Florida State University: 9.4
Southern Illinious Univ.-Springfield: 9.4
East Carolina Univ. (Brody): 9.4
Univ. of Arkansas for Med. Sci: 9.4
University of Kansas Med Center: 9.5
Wright State Univ. (Boonshoft): 9.5
West Virginia Univ. 9.5

I believe that none of the Caribbean MD schools have MCATs over 9.0 and most are closer to 6-8. The highest is probably St. George which is ~8.67 (http://www.princetonreview.com/schools/medical/MedBasics.aspx?iid=1037718). No Caribbean schools are included in the USNews ranking/reporting so this data is less readily available for comparison.

I don't really have a point here other than to point out the surprising number of DO schools which are more selective than or as selective as (based on MCAT) a decent number of U.S. MD schools. I think MCAT is far more useful and fair to compare schools than GPA because GPA varies widely based on difficulty of undergraduate school which in turn varies based on geography to some degree. For example, a school which restricts applications to instate residents only or primarily, yet does not have any highly competitive universities in that state for undergraduates, will likely have an inflated average GPA because the majority of students attended an "easier" undergraduate school compared to the average student nationwide. This discrepancy results in some DO schools having inflated GPAs and low MCATs, and also occurs for some MD schools. As such, GPA is very hard to compare across schools drawing applications from different populations and therefore GPA is not as valid as MCAT for comparison.

It is noteworthy that some DO schools have very low average MCAT scores, for example Edward Via Virginia College of Osteopathic Medicine has an average MCAT of 8.0. This may reflect a very wide variation in admissions selectivity among DO schools. However, in some cases, I believe some DO schools very strongly devalue MCAT scores and strongly value intangibles as evidenced by anecdotal stories of people with high MCAT scores and GPAs being rejected after interviews somewhat frequently (Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine being an example)...see the DO board for these examples. So, admissions to DO schools may be a tricky thing to predict. I believe that certain DO schools, particularly the newest ones (<5 years old) may have somewhat easier admissions than nearly any U.S. MD school (but not all of these new DO schools are like this, some are relatively competitive). But the most competitive DO schools appear to have admissions standards at least as high as some of the easiest MD schools to get into. Granted, many of the easiest MD schools to get into restrict applications to in state which makes them inaccessible to many willing candidates, likely suppressing their MCAT scores and selectivity.

I figured this information might be interesting to people looking to apply to medical school first as a warning that DO schools are not necessarily a backup (or at least not a guaranteed admission) and to orient people as to the fact that some DO schools have their average students scoring higher on the MCAT than a decent number of U.S. MD schools which are generally considered more selective/higher quality.
 
different types of 'selection' factors bro.

Meharry: ~7.5-9*
Morehouse: ~8-9*
Howard: 8.4
University of North Dakota: 9.1
Mercer University: 9.1
University of New Mexico: 9.2
Click to expand...

those schools, especially the first 3, guess what the biggest selection factor is?
 
and now, imagine if those MD schools on your list suddenly accepted OOS people. now what?
 
Ummmm...turtles live longer than we do...better healthcare.
 
I prefer llamas milk, wool, cuddly nighttime companions, self-defense, ninja fights, et cetera.

OP--> Good info, but it's all relative. MD or DO doesn't determine what kind of doctor you are going to be. The only person in at my undergrad I would ever let touch me is going DO.
 
I did not read the entire thread. Just skimmed the data...

Yes, it makes sense. I donot see anything revolutionary here. The TOP D.O schools have an average MCAT ~= to the LOWER tier MD schools.
 
DOs are the NEW HARVARD! APPLY APPLY APPLY!

DOs have a higher chance getting into Derm

Only DOs look at their patients as whole people

Only DOs are the cool social types.
 
chessodoc said:
Ummmm...turtles live longer than we do...better healthcare.
Click to expand...

au contraire my friend. if a turtle's "healthcare" involves me in any way, there is an inverse relationship between length of ownership and said turtle's lifespan.
 
I'm not taking any position on this MD vs. DO debate because I simply don't care about that debate, but numbers don't correlate to prestige or any other intangible factor; otherwise, Washington University in St. Louis would beat out the likes of Harvard, Johns Hopkins, and others handily, even though Harvard and Johns Hopkins are generally regarded as at the pinnacle of medical schools.
 
"...strongly value intangibles as evidenced by anecdotal stories..."

Evidence based...we used evidence based, not anecdotal.

Interesting data though. It actually doesn't surprise me at all. Pretty cool.

 
i prefer dolphins. i plan on buying one. how much do they cost?
 
witness23 said:
i prefer dolphins. i plan on buying one. how much do they cost?
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Depends if their is stipend money left over. One of the florida schools actually give them away as gifts to imcomming students.
 
SketchsaurusRex said:
au contraire my friend. if a turtle's "healthcare" involves me in any way, there is an inverse relationship between length of ownership and said turtle's lifespan.
Click to expand...

Not everything is about you dude....come on!

engineeredout said:
My penis is at least three inches longer than yours.
Click to expand...

Oh please sir, those who are well endowed do not brag.
 
Oh Jesus H Christ. Please ... PLEASE just close it now mods.
 
Good point and I fully agree. I think all U.S. MD schools currently carry higher prestige than even the top DO schools. There is the possible exception of the three lowest MCAT-average MD schools, but these are highly prestigious in and of themselves considering that they have noble aims to produce URM physicians, and so I think they are also more prestigious (in the eye of the all important residency directory) than all DO schools. But, my point, if there is one, is that despite this gap in prestige, the data shows the average student at top DO schools is stronger. And of course every DO school has a small number of 37+ MCAT scorers who for one reason or another (location, low GPA, want DO, whatever) attend DO schools.
 
JaggerPlate said:
Oh Jesus H Christ. Please ... PLEASE just close it now mods.
Click to expand...

Actually please don't! I don't think this will turn into a flame war or MD vs. DO confrontation. At least I hope it doesn't.

An interesting question I forgot to pose in my original post:
Considering the average MCAT for DO schools has been rising rapidly (up to 1 full point, or 0.33/section, per year) recently, where do you think it will level off?

For California schools, which are the top two DO schools regarding average MCAT, one might consider the choices many students from CA are making when choosing to attend a CA DO school. Presumably, many of these students would prefer to attend UC Davis or Irvine if admitted (though, of course, not all would prefer this). The average MCAT at these schools is ~31/32. Therefore I presume that the top DO schools in CA would probably level off at around 30, maybe 31 tops because beyond that many students would be also getting into UC schools. Actually, as it is, many CA students with 30-33 get rejected from all UC schools without an interview if their GPA is <3.6, so these are all candidates for the CA DO schools... so perhaps the ceiling is just equal to the lower UC schools (i.e. 32) if the CA DO schools are more lenient in accepting students than the UC schools as long as their GPA and MCAT are high. The UC schools currently reject many students with higher MCATs/GPAs than their averages, presumably for other parts of the application and due to just an overload of qualified candidates who are all very similar (how many good students apply from UCLA, UCSD, UCB, etc. every year? Probably a ton).
 
JaggerPlate said:
Oh Jesus H Christ. Please ... PLEASE just close it now mods.
Click to expand...

NEVER! Jesus is busy.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7MOL3GVyS0&feature=PlayList&p=20814C42E09D1A7E&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=1[/YOUTUBE]
 
slick27 said:
Depends if their is stipend money left over. One of the florida schools actually give them away as gifts to imcomming students.
Click to expand...

wow, i'm in for one. are we allowed to breed them and sell the offspring to new students?

on second thought, i would also like a penguin.

penguins vs dolphins. help me choose guys
 
123456789DO said:
Actually please don't! I don't think this will turn into a flame war or MD vs. DO confrontation. At least I hope it doesn't.
Click to expand...

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

AE check on aisle 5 please
 
I've always wondered what does that H in Jesus H. Christ stand for? I first knew about reading the "Catcher in the Rye" but I never figured it out.
 
Lukkie said:
and now, imagine if those MD schools on your list suddenly accepted OOS people. now what?
Click to expand...

I have no doubt in the point you are trying to make... MD prestige is higher (see my post above). Most DO students, all things being equal, would take an MD admission instead. However, very rarely are all things equal. Location is especially important in many cases... many DO students want badly to live in Manhattan or LA or SF etc., and would much rather go to DO school there than MD school in the middle of nowhere.

But, as you are implying, if these schools opened up to OOS applicants they would indeed steal many good students from DO schools and their numbers would undoubtedly jump up, likely beyond the highest DO schools be a significant margin.

As it is, though, the average student at Univ. of New Mexico has a lower MCAT score than the average student at Western University (DO school). That is perhaps a little surprising to some people.
 
123456789DO said:
I have no doubt in the point you are trying to make... MD prestige is higher (see my post above). Most DO students, all things being equal, would take an MD admission instead. However, very rarely are all things equal. Location is especially important in many cases... many DO students want badly to live in Manhattan or LA or SF etc., and would much rather go to DO school there than MD school in the middle of nowhere.

But, as you are implying, if these schools opened up to OOS applicants they would indeed steal many good students from DO schools and their numbers would undoubtedly jump up, likely beyond the highest DO schools be a significant margin.

As it is, though, the average student at Univ. of New Mexico has a lower MCAT score than the average student at Western University (DO school). That is perhaps a little surprising to some people.
Click to expand...

is there even a DO school in Manhattan?
 
First off, those aren't the "top DO schools" unless only MCAT score determines the top anything. Second, DO schools, as a whole, tend to have lower averages because they look at more than just MCAT scores. You cited Edward Via Virginia College of Osteopathic Medicine, but you neglected to mention that although their average MCAT is a 24, their accepted students have an average of several hundred hours of community service/clinical experience, including some that have years of professional clinical experience. The same can be said for most other DO schools. They usually put a bigger premium on clinical exposure and community service than MD schools do. As important as research is to the top MD schools, that's how important community service is to DO schools. Just FYI.
 
Gabby said:
First off, those aren't the "top DO schools" unless only MCAT score determines the top anything. Second, DO schools, as a whole, tend to have lower averages because they look at more than just MCAT scores. You cited Edward Via Virginia College of Osteopathic Medicine, but you neglected to mention that although their average MCAT is a 24, their accepted students have an average of several hundred hours of community service/clinical experience, including some that have years of professional clinical experience. The same can be said for most other DO schools. They usually put a bigger premium on clinical exposure and community service than MD schools do. As important as research is to the top MD schools, that's how important community service is to DO schools. Just FYI.
Click to expand...

That is a standard for pretty much all pre-meds.
 
JamesBond15 said:
That is a standard for pretty much all pre-meds.
Click to expand...

Several hundred hours? No actually, it isn't, not in real life or by SDN standards. Clinical experience is required, but just browse SDN and look at how many people boast 75 hours or less of clinicals and little to no community service getting into top schools with four years of strong and heavy research. State schools are different obviously.
 
BlueElmo said:
I've always wondered what does that H in Jesus H. Christ stand for? I first knew about reading the "Catcher in the Rye" but I never figured it out.
Click to expand...

I was always under the impression the H stood for Hypoactive. You know, because he isn't there. Or if he is, he is there like the Tooth fairy-- who doesn't really do anything.
 
wrong%20facepalm.jpg
 
BlueElmo said:
I've always wondered what does that H in Jesus H. Christ stand for? I first knew about reading the "Catcher in the Rye" but I never figured it out.
Click to expand...

Hubert ... he's not fond of it, so he usually leaves it out.



I've actually heard it's 'holy,' like not his actual middle name, but saying 'Jesus Holy Christ' as an expression.

OP, this not starting a flame war is absurd. You've also taken wayyy too many liberties here with your facts: comparing private DO schools to URM heavy and small state schools, you're also assuming that high MCAT = good school. The best DO school in the country, according to MOST popular opinion, is PCOM. However, it has an MCAT far lower than Western, for example. It's also not fair to compare DO Cali admissions to UC schools. It just doesn't compute because UC admissions are one of the craziest things I've ever seen.

Keep in mind too that this is coming from the most pro-DO poster on the forums. I honestly have a laundry list full of infractions, warnings etc from battling MD vs DO and defending DOs on every account. The gap between MD and DO schools, as far as MCAT is concerned, is closing - quickly. However, your examples have various other factors invovled.
 
🤣

This has gotta be one of the funniest threads on SDN

😆
 
Why do you guys even respond to this nonsense?

The only reason I applied DO only is because I heard they teach you how to operate on turtles, monkeys and geese and hate those little bastards.

Now as I understand it, none of those things are true. Curses!
 
After carefully reviewing the data, what would be easier, a urm's chance to get into north dakota or morehouse? its a real stumper.
 
Gabby said:
Several hundred hours? No actually, it isn't, not in real life or by SDN standards. Clinical experience is required, but just browse SDN and look at how many people boast 75 hours or less of clinicals and little to no community service getting into top schools with four years of strong and heavy research. State schools are different obviously.
Click to expand...

Yes, several hundred. You obviously don't know UC pre-meds.
 
Well if we are going to sticky this, I'd like to add that it should be a requirement for beautiful women to go to medical school. They uhm, practice better.
 
I have a feeling that SGU, a carib school, might even have higher average than some of those US schools.
 
Handy388 said:
I have a feeling that SGU, a carib school, might even have higher average than some of those US schools.
Click to expand...

True story

SGU, however, is an extreme outlier among the carribean schools.



lol, this thread has all the fixings of an SDN abomination: DO v. MD, DO v. Carribean v. MD, MCAT comparisons, complaining about California schools, religion, and fornicating with dolphins :meanie:
 
SGU says their average is 28 and 3.3 gpa. higher than I thought. Personally, I would do something else before heading there.
 
123456789DO said:
I don't really have a point here other than to point out the surprising number of DO schools which are more selective than or as selective as (based on MCAT) a decent number of U.S. MD schools. But the most competitive DO schools appear to have admissions standards at least as high as some of the easiest MD schools to get into.

I figured this information might be interesting to people looking to apply to medical school first as a warning that DO schools are not necessarily a backup (or at least not a guaranteed admission) and to orient people as to the fact that some DO schools have their average students scoring higher on the MCAT than a decent number of U.S. MD schools which are generally considered more selective/higher quality.
Click to expand...

You make some weird jumps here. MCAT alone doesn't tell you how selective a school is - ie Brown is super selective due to it's small class size (non-PLME) but doesn't have sky-high MCAT because they look at other things too.
And putting a slash between more selective and higher quality is ridiculous. Particularly if you're basing "more selective" on MCAT numbers, not on, you know, how selective the school is. If this were true, everyone who got into WashU would go there over Harvard or Hopkins, because their 37 MCAT average blows everyone else out of the water.

Wait, what was the point of this thread again?

Turtles live for a long time because of their long telomeres?
 
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