MPH Before, During, or After Medical School....or Not At All?

[doctorDoctor.]

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Hello. I'm thinking of pursuing both an MPH and MD at some point in my medical career.
Though my ultimate goal is to become a physician, I think that an MPH would provide me with ample opportunities related to public health research and significant involvement in international health organizations; in other words, I am NOT pursuing an MPH just because I think it will help me get into medical school.

Given that I'm deciding between Columbia, Yale, and Harvard MPH, would it be wise to receive the degree right after my undergraduate studies, then enter medical school at 23~24 years old? What are the pros and cons of this route?
If I wanted an MPH specifically from one of those three schools, would I be able to pursue my studies at one of the three institutions during residency?
Is it possible to apply as a 32+ year old graduate (after I finish residency and have become a legitimate practicing physician) to MPH Programs?
What would the MPH do to my debt?

If I'm applying after medical school or after residency, do they look only at my undergraduate grades? Would I have to retake my GRE?

Thanks very much.

 

[BruceWilly]

Don't get a MPH.

 

[doctorDoctor.]

why is that?

 

[Roxas]

I thought about doing something like that before med school, but just decided to jump straight in. No regrets.

 

[lisi326]

If you really are interested in an MPH, I'd wait until a point in your career where you can convince someone else to pay for it (ie residency or as a junior faculty).

That said, I think MPHs are among the least practical graduate degrees

Or find a med school that will let you do it during a year off and pay for it.

 

[Ismet]

Moving to pre-allo

 

[SpartanWolverine]

I thought about doing something like that before med school, but just decided to jump straight in. No regrets.

Same here. The cost -- both opportunity and tuition/living -- were just astronomical. I was going to go to Columbia (they were one of the few taking MCAT in lieu of GRE), so of course there are cheaper routes to a MPH than living in Manhattan with sky-high tuition... but I echo the "it's not worth it" sentiment.

Plus, if you do end up wanting a MPH, you can do an accelerated program post-MD. ... and I think Harvard actually requires a doctoral degree in order to apply to their program, IIRC.

 

[wholeheartedly]

As someone finishing up an MPH before medical school, I have to agree with the idea of doing it later in the course of your training, especially if you can get funding for it. The time/ cost is definitely sizable. Waiting also gives you the opportunity to tailor your courses, field experiences, and project to something applicable to what you'll actually be doing in medicine.

An MPH without a doctorate or while being in a doctoral program generally takes two years. With a doctorate or while in a doctoral program, it's often accelerated into one year.

Generally, with a doctorate or while in a doctoral program, the GRE is waived for the MCAT though it is program specific. As far as standardized tests go, if you did well enough on the MCAT to get into medical school you probably shouldn't have any trouble with the GRE if you put in an honest effort.

There are people at all stages of training in medicine in my program and from a wide variety of specialties, from ID to general surgery.

As to the value of the degree, well that depends on a lot of factors. People who say it's worthless don't always have the best understanding of what's involved in an MPH. There are multiple types of MPH degrees and curriculums and depending on what you want to do, some are going to be more useful than others.

For instance at my school, there's a required core for the MPH and then you do a major which has its own additional requirements, such as Epidemiology, Biostats, Maternal and Child Health, Community Health Education, Policy, etc.

So if you want to do academic medicine and conduct health outcomes research or clinical research, etc. then getting an MPH in Epi with lots of courses on study design, methods, clinical trials, and data analysis isnt going to be worthless. But other majors are definitely more geared towards other non provider public health roles and not all that helpful to physicians.

If you do an MPH just because it sounds cool or to add another set of letters after your name without a clear idea for how you think you'll use it use (another reason to get it later in training) then yeah, it might not be all that useful to you.

Most of the global health MD faculty and ID faculty here have an MPH or something like an MS in Epi or Clinical research. I've only really met one person there who thought it was useless and they admitted applied without really seriously thinking about why they wanted to do it and how they'd use it.

 

[AllThatRacket]

I want to piggy back onto this thread. I am really considering doing the dual degree MD/MPH because I have a strong interest in global and public health. I have been accepted to several MD/MPH programs but I am getting cold feet about doing them after thinking about paying another year of (at least some) tuition and not making money for another year. I do not know if the training is worth the financial payoff.

Anyone have any further insight into this? Is it better to get the MD first and then get the MPH later if the opportunity presents itself?

 

[quicheduty]

^I second that question! Does anyone have an experience with MD/MPH programs they could share? Did having to do the last year of MD a year later affect anything?

 

[darklabel]

^I second that question! Does anyone have an experience with MD/MPH programs they could share? Did having to do the last year of MD a year later affect anything?

Hopefully other people will chime in, but I know people in my school's MD/MPH programs. It basically boils down to your individual goals.

When people say it is "useless", they basically mean it doesn't help set you apart while applying for residencies. It definitely doesn't hinder you either since the graduates in my school matched where they wanted without issues but (and this is according to 4th years or people in the MPH program), most program directors don't really really care whether you have an MPH. It isn't seen negatively to take an extra year or two for the MPH though. If, as wholeheartedly put it, an MPH aligns with your goals of working in public health, then you need to decide yourself if the extra costs/year is worth it or not, which is something no one on SDN can decide for you.

Based on some of the advice here, a research year is more beneficial for your CV than an MPH, but once again, YMMV.

 

[allantois]

Don't forget there are some 4 year MD/MPH programs out there. I wonder if it makes things even more overwhelming for students

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

Don't forget there are some 4 year MD/MPH programs out there. I wonder if it makes things even more overwhelming for students

Are these programs at schools with a shorter pre-clinical track?

 

[allantois]

Are these programs at schools with a shorter pre-clinical track?

From University of Miami website:

1. Beginning MPH studies the summer before starting medical school;
2. Completing MPH course work during one afternoon, three hours per week, during parts of the first, second, and third years;
3. Using the shortened second year to complete MPH courses after taking the USMLEStep 1 examination and before starting the clinical clerkships;
4. Transferring nine credits of MD course work to the MPH degree.

 

[karayaa]

Are these programs at schools with a shorter pre-clinical track?

USC
http://keck.usc.edu/en/About/Admini...of_MD_Admissions/Four-Year_MD-MPH_Degree.aspx

 

[TeddyMeddy]

.

 

[wholeheartedly]

I know a doctor, in his 40s, who got an MPH, but his work (a public health department) paid for it.

It's kind of a waste of money if that's an issue.

If you're interested in exploring it intellectually, I don't even think there's that much to learn there. I mean, you take biostatistics and epidemiology in medical school, that's all it is basically. The other courses are just fluff. I'd rather get a literature masters, that is way more interesting than hashing up a million times "being poor = bad health outcomes" over and over again in different scholarly contexts.

My opinion is 1. professionally 2. money 3. subject matter level of interest makes it a bad deal for someone getting an MD already.

Maybe if you are going into epidemiology it will be useful but you'd be getting the PhD if you wanted to do any sort of impactful research anyways.

The MPH is useful for someone who just needs the letters after their name to get a job in public health. If you're a physician it's kinda useless unless you work in public health and like i noted above, people will pay you to get them so why spend the money now.

I'm sorry, this is so far beyond completely misinformed. There is a ton to learn and it's definitely NOT just rehashing being poor=bad outcomes.

The biostats and epidemiology content covered in medical school isnt nearly in as in depth as what's covered in the classes for a lot of MPH programs.

There are quite a few researchers at my school doing impactful research with an MD MPH. You don't need a PhD to do meaningful research if that's something you want to do.

As I stated above, there are lots of ways to set up an MPH and some classes are less useful to physicians, but to say the entire degree is worthless for physicians is a pretty gross over generalization. The medical students in several of my classes have said they wished more of the public health content was covered in medical school because they thought it was valuable and their classmates could benefit from it as well.

I would hope someone who plans to get the MPH has plans for how they are going to use it and obviously it doesn't make sense to get it if you don't plan to use it. But there are other ways to use it outside of just public health sector work.

Just to note, the OP expressed an interest in doing public health research and international work in that post, which indicates that he (or she) is in the category of people that could benefit from doing the degree at some point.

 

[GoPens]

I'm sorry, this is so far beyond completely misinformed. There is a ton to learn and it's definitely NOT just rehashing being poor=bad outcomes.

The biostats and epidemiology content covered in medical school isnt nearly in as in depth as what's covered in the classes for a lot of MPH programs.

There are quite a few researchers at my school doing impactful research with an MD MPH. You don't need a PhD to do meaningful research if that's something you want to do.

As I stated above, there are lots of ways to set up an MPH and some classes are less useful to physicians, but to say the entire degree is worthless for physicians is a pretty gross over generalization. The medical students in several of my classes have said they wished more of the public health content was covered in medical school because they thought it was valuable and their classmates could benefit from it as well.

I would hope someone who plans to get the MPH has plans for how they are going to use it and obviously it doesn't make sense to get it if you don't plan to use it. But there are other ways to use it outside of just public health sector work.

Just to note, the OP expressed an interest in doing public health research and international work in that post, which indicates that he (or she) is in the category of people that could benefit from doing the degree at some point.

I thoroughly agree with this and disagree with the MPH-negativity. I got an MPH a couple years ago and have recently decided to pursue an MD. It's truly what you make of it. For me, it has been immensely useful both in the knowledge I obtained and the experience it has gotten me. It is easy to coast through the program and just get the letters after your name, but you can always take electives or pursue research or practice opportunities to get more out of it.

If you're interested in public health, then go for it. As others have said, it is expensive, so I'd agree with going the MD/MPH route or do it after med school and get funding. MPH students tend to be very diverse as well--lots of older professionals and people who have already finished med school. Whatever you decide, I'm sure you'll be in good company.

 

[TeddyMeddy]

.

 

[BruceWilly]

why is that?

Current MD/MPH student.

When I was in preschool, I wanted to be a turtle. When I was a premed I wanted to save the world one African orphan at a time (even petted a few). When I began my masters, I wanted to work for the WHO, design surveys, write papers, travel the world, read public health textbooks, etc. all instead of enjoying my free time--right... It never happened.

Now I'm older, married.. and am about to start a family. My priorities have changed.

I'm not saying you won't save the world, but I would recommend waiting to pursue the MPH until you hear "We didn't hire you because you don't have an MPH."

Other thoughts...

My program is a JOKE. It's several fourth grade level courses spread over two years that are dressed up to look legitimate. I have literally learned nothing.

I'm also not aware of any job opportunities that REQUIRE the MD/MPH. There are MPH jobs, and there are MD jobs. My advice would be to pick one.

Good luck.

 

[Carbon Tetrafluoride]

Current MD/MPH student.

When I was in preschool, I wanted to be a turtle. When I was a premed I wanted to save the world one African orphan at a time (even petted a few). When I began my masters, I wanted to work for the WHO, design surveys, write papers, travel the world, read public health textbooks, etc. all instead of enjoying my free time--right... It never happened.

Now I'm older, married.. and am about to start a family. My priorities have changed.

I'm not saying you won't save the world, but I would recommend waiting to pursue the MPH until you hear "We didn't hire you because you don't have an MPH."

Other thoughts...

My program is a JOKE. It's several fourth grade level courses spread over two years that are dressed up to look legitimate. I have literally learned nothing.

I'm also not aware of any job opportunities that REQUIRE the MD/MPH. There are MPH jobs, and there are MD jobs. My advice would be to pick one.

Good luck.

😱

 

[otterxavier]

I was seriously considering an MD/MPH and had a really helpful conversation about it with a family practice doctor who did an MPH during her residency. She basically talked me out of it. A few points that she made that I think are worth considering:

- Think very carefully about what you would actually do with an MD/MPH. There are very few jobs that require both. This doctor said that outside of academia, there are only a handful of jobs in her state that provide opportunities to use both degrees. As a practicing physician she did not feel that she used her MPH in her work at all. If your reasons for getting the MPH are because you're curious about [insert topic here -- epidemiology, global health, etc.], consider whether you actually need an MPH or can pursue that interest in other capacities.

- Financially, it's a questionable idea to pay an extra year of med school tuition to do an MD/MPH. Apply for residencies that will allow you to complete an MPH while getting paid, or take a job that will pay for your MPH. If you're going to pay for it yourself, do it separately from your MD, since many MPH programs have lower tuition than many med schools.

- Her areas of interest in public health changed dramatically during med school. It was valuable to do the MPH after completing her MD because if she had done the public health coursework before or during med school, she would have chosen to focus on a different track. In addition, she felt that the perspective that she gained from her medical training was an asset in completing the MPH, relative to other students who had limited exposure to (and understanding/appreciation of) the realities of practicing medicine in a clinical setting.

Things to think about.