MS1 in need of some academic advice

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

han14tra

Full Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
May 22, 2007
Messages
638
Reaction score
25
This sort of goes along with the "Am I screwing myself with straight Cs thread." I got a 89% in anatomy/embryo. In biochem, I got an 87% (roughly, grades aren't finalized yet).

I am interested in:
1) Emergency Medicine
2) Family Medicine
3) Pediatrics

I want to leave all possible doors open for these specialties. Are my grades going to hurt me?:scared:

I've been volunteering at homeless shelters, and I joined Toastmasters (to improve communication skills). These take up a lot of time. It's time I don't spend studying. What is more valuable, straight As or community work/being a good communicator?
 
lol..sadly, I'm not trying to be funny. 116/250 people in my class got honors in biochem. That means I'm in the bottom 50%. 🙁
 
lol..sadly, I'm not trying to be funny. 116/250 people in my class got honors in biochem. That means I'm in the bottom 50%. 🙁


.....that kind of defeats the point.

I didn't realize the "everyone gets a blue ribbon and gold star just for showing up" mentality had permeated medical schools too.
 
Yeah...that seems a little weird. In any event, if C's don't screw you, why would high B's? Those specialties aren't terribly competitive. Nothing short of genocide is going to keep you from matching in FP, and even then, you might get in if you go to a rural program.
 
Yeah...that seems a little weird. In any event, if C's don't screw you, why would high B's? Those specialties aren't terribly competitive. Nothing short of genocide is going to keep you from matching in FP, and even then, you might get in if you go to a rural program.

I go to a school with a really good family medicine residency program, and I think I might want to stay. I'm guaranteed an interview because I'm a student here, but with my grades I'm afraid I won't be good enough. Also, I know EM is very competitive and I would want to train at an academic center.
 
I go to a school with a really good family medicine residency program, and I think I might want to stay. I'm guaranteed an interview because I'm a student here, but with my grades I'm afraid I won't be good enough. Also, I know EM is very competitive and I would want to train at an academic center.

Only peripherally related, but I know a girl who's a PGY-1 in Jeff's FM residency and is enjoying it so far. She was a Jeff grad as well.
 
It would seem to me that you're doing pretty well. Do well on your boards. Impress the pants off the team when you do FP, Peds, and EM during M3, M4. You'll be fine.
 
I go to a school with a really good family medicine residency program, and I think I might want to stay. I'm guaranteed an interview because I'm a student here, but with my grades I'm afraid I won't be good enough. Also, I know EM is very competitive and I would want to train at an academic center.

EM is mild to moderately competitive at best.

"very competitve" would incldue plastics, derm, uro, etc.

Also, you can have straight A's with a 260 and that won't gaurantee you a spot in anything anywhere. Also, step 1>> than pre-clinical grades, so as long as you're learning the material, you can get a good step score even if you pull straight passes now. For family med, personality will take you a lot further than any grade will. Work hard, make some connections, and you will be fine in any of the fields you mentioned.

Finally, about being in the bottom 50%... well by definition somebody has to fall in that category, and it doesn't mean that they are screwed.
 
Yeah...that seems a little weird. In any event, if C's don't screw you, why would high B's? Those specialties aren't terribly competitive. Nothing short of genocide is going to keep you from matching in FP, and even then, you might get in if you go to a rural program.

Actually genocide would only help the OP by eliminating competition :laugh:
 
lol..sadly, I'm not trying to be funny. 116/250 people in my class got honors in biochem. That means I'm in the bottom 50%. 🙁

that is sorta ridiculous. I was briefly pissed when I was one point away from getting an honors in genetics (I had 92% and the cutoff for honors was 93%), but I realize that it is probably a good system to have only the top 15% of a class getting honors no matter what the grade distribution is, as, yes, giving an honors to 50% of people defeats the entire purpose of the grade.

And this conversation clearly shows how truly subjective medical school grades are, and therefore how little they mean when it comes to residencies. I'm not remotely close to making honors in any of my classes this semester, but I am studying hard just to try to retain the material for what actually counts, the USMLE. Even if you are in the bottom 50% of the class, if you end up with over an 80% in every class, it means you know your stuff and can do well on the boards.

And this also shows why I actually love standardized tests - because that is really the only way you can get past these crazy school systems, ranging from letter grades to H/P/F to P/F to no grades at all.

As for the programs you're interested in, EM is mildly competitive, but FM and peds are totally uncompetitive, so unless you're looking to match at Harvard or UCSF, you have absolutely nothing to worry about, and even for those programs, I highly doubt they'll care about first year grades or class rank in a school where an 'average' score is 89%. Pretty much every door in the country is open to you right now in those fields.
 
Thank you for the responses. They have helped reassure me. Also, only 50% of the class is getting honors for biochem. For anatomy, it was 12%. Not all the classes are like that.
 
lol..sadly, I'm not trying to be funny. 116/250 people in my class got honors in biochem. That means I'm in the bottom 50%. 🙁

I wouldn't worry too much about it. First of all, the specialties you're looking into are not terribly competitive. Also, people tend to do way better in classes like biochem and molecular/cell bio than anatomy/histology..etc. Once the Step I score and clinical clerkship grades are out, you can truly tell who's really at the top of the pack. So, just try to do better in the remaining pre-clinical classes and rock your Step I and 3rd year.
 
For family med, personality will take you a lot further than any grade will. Work hard, make some connections, and you will be fine in any of the fields you mentioned.

The same can be said about some EM residencies.
 
Remember that a lot of schools are P/F preclinical. I think don't worry, chill. Congrats on getting such good grades in med school courses. Stay the course and don't compare yourself to others.

I learned pretty quickly that most of the people in med school must be part mutant to consistently ace every exam in every class. I wrote a grant to investigate the genetic makeup of these people, but it was rejected. One of the 'mutants' probably got the grant money I'm guessing.
 
Just so everyone doesn't think Jefferson gives out honors for showing up, about half our class was getting honors BEFORE the last exam, which was Friday, and which was HARD. I think the percentage has gone down considerably in the last day.
 
Just so everyone doesn't think Jefferson gives out honors for showing up, about half our class was getting honors BEFORE the last exam, which was Friday, and which was HARD. I think the percentage has gone down considerably in the last day.

I'll second that. It was a hard test. I don't know how much that will pull the 50% down from getting honors. But, it will probably bring some people down a few percentage points.

The tested about 1.5% of the information I learned for that test. Ah, I hate medical school exams. They always test on the tiniest little details.
 
I thought the OP was a troll; worried about not matching into family medicine because they got an 89% on embryology...
 
Yeah this thread is pretty ridiculous. Reminds me of a person with a 35 MCAT worried about getting into a Caribbean school. But if you look at the OP's posting history, you'll see that he/she's always been extremely freaky about this stuff all along.
 
Here's a summary of our EM match advisory meeting..


__________________

Wow, big turnout. Everyone wants to go into Emergency Medicine? That’s a lot of you to match. Okay, so this is supposed to be preparation for a career in Emergency Medicine. So you want to be an ER doc? I guess the first thing you should realize is that it’s misspelled. It’s ED. I work in an Emergency Department. It’s not just a single room, and the specialty is actually called Emergency Medicine. So when you talk to someone in Emergency Medicine, or you talk about your career in Emergency Medicine, you don’t call it “ER Medicine”, you call it Emergency Medicine. I’m not insane about it, but some people have a tendency to go on about it.
So the TV show, which I’m sure you all watch. I’ve never watched it; I get a good dosing of it every day when I’m at work. Based on what I’ve heard, the descriptions of it, is it as realistic as the things that I’ve got drawn up here? No.
Alright, so Emergency Medicine and the Match. First of all, if you start looking through programs (and don’t worry, you don’t have to go do this tonight; you’ve got time) you’ll get an idea of what’s out there on the horizon and get an idea of the landscape. There are different formats for residency training programs in Emergency Medicine. We kind of came along after all of the other specialties were long established already. We started out with most of the programs being four year programs, but some were three year programs. The three year programs said, “We can do it better because we can do it in three years”, and the four year programs said, “We crank out a better product”. The Federal Government finally decided “enough is enough. If some say three years and some say four years, then we’ll pay for three and a half years”, so a lot of the programs who were using four years are systematically folding because they can’t afford it. Medicaid and the Federal Government pay for a lot of residency training programs: the salaries for the residents. So since folks aren’t independently wealthy, they’re switching over to a three year format. ___ used to have a four year format. I thought it was a great thing. I know you guys want to be out as quickly as possible, but that’s the real scoop. There are 1-4 programs; 2-4 programs, where you do an internship somewhere else and then go into Emergency Medicine; and 1-3 programs. We are now a 1-3 program.
You cannot get boarded without being residency trained in Emergency Medicine. It’s kind of weird: you can do Family Medicine, you can do Internal Medicine, you can do Psychiatry, and you can go work in an ED. Many EDs will hire you because you have an MD degree and you have a pulse. That’s all that’s required. If you’re going to be a teaching facilitator, they require board certification. Having said that, there’s also a new rogue organization, not the American Board of Medical Examiners, but another side group that is making their own board, so when you say, “Oh yea, I’m boarded”, people are getting confused about it. So we have to figure out if it’s the real Emergency Medicine or is it the pseudo Emergency Medicine where you do internship, practice on the job, and wiggle your way in.
What are the minimums? There aren’t really a whole lot of minimums. You have to go to medical school, you have to finish, and if you match in a 2-4 program, you have to go to internship (in anything). Is everyone clear on the differences between internship and first year residency? I don’t see a single hand. You! Okay, thank you for asking. There is no difference. In the old days, internship was basically nothing more than a fifth year of medical school, except you got paid instead of having to pay for it and it counted towards your residency training program. As specialties became more complex, and the body of knowledge required for that specialty became bigger and bigger, most of the specialties started capturing the internship year and saying, “We’ll just pull you right into residency”. Nowadays all specialties do that, so the first year of residency is synonymous with the word “internship”. There is no difference. Good job being honest and asking that question. You have a chance in Emergency Medicine. That’s actually not too far off the mark. Every time I ask for a consult in the ED, I’m asking for help. Every time I ask a service to come down and admit the patient, I’m asking for help. The patient is now beyond what I can take care of in the Emergency Department, and I have to have help. The patient has to be admitted to continue care. I ask for help all of the time. All the time. There’s no shame in it.

Okay, what sets an applicant apart? Longstanding interest in the specialty is a good thing. That doesn’t mean that you have the entire series of “ER” on DVD in your home collection. That does not count as commitment. Maybe some of you have a prior career in EMS. Maybe you were a nurse in Emergency Medicine. Maybe you spent a long time volunteering, and you were working as a clerk in an ED, and then became a tech in the ED. Just a longstanding interest and commitment in the specialty, as opposed to the person who in December on their EM rotation says, “Hey, this is a good thing, I think I’ll apply.” That’s the person that program directors will think, “I wonder if they’re going to bail on me six months or a year later when they suddenly decide, ‘I want to do what those guys are doing over there instead of what I’m doing now.’” Program directors don’t like that. They don’t like holes in their residency program.

Diversity. Everyone likes diversity. It’s much more interesting, much more fun. They also have a larger base of stuff that they can drawn on when faced with challenge. In Emergency Medicine, the challenge is basically to take care of anything that walks through the door. Everything is fair game, no matter what. Anything that walks through the door is mine to take care of and stabilize until whatever specialty I call on to help me can pick up the care.
Research requirements. Regardless of what you end up going into, 99% of what I’m talking about up here is useful for any specialty. It’s not specific to Emergency Medicine. Programs have some kind of research requirement. It’s interpreted differently by different places. Most folks have it as, “You will do something of publishable quality.” Whether it gets published or not, that’s up to the publishers, and no one has any divine knowledge of what motivates them necessarily. [You’ll do] something of publishable quality. There are some places that interpret it very loosy goosy. We [also] have journal club, where we work on statistical methods a little bit. If you have had some prior research experience, that just means that the program director is not likely to come after you because you’re having a problem doing your research requirement. Like the person who after two years still hasn’t finished their research requirement, and you finally have to threaten them: “If you do no submit this in the next six months, then we are not going to allow you to sit for boards, and you will have to repeat a residency someplace. Good luck.” We don’t like dragging things along like that.

AOA? Do you have to be AOA? No, you don’t. It’s nice, but it only goes to a handful of folks, and if we relied on that, there would be an even bigger shortage of Emergency Physicians. I wasn’t AOA. I didn’t get close. I didn’t have the grades for it.

Letters of recommendation tips. In Emergency Medicine for 5-6 years now, we have been using a standardized format to try to level the playing field a little bit. Anyone who sits on the panel and goes through all of the applications knows that there’s a whole gaming to the system as far as letters goes. Anyone who has ever read military letters knows that they’re all glowing, they all walk on water. There’s a special way of reading those to kind of tease through it and see the subtleties that are there, otherwise everyone is great and wonderful. But there are good letters and there are not-so-good letters. There’s no such thing as a bad letter, per se. So we use a standardized form. It’s basically a row of check boxes comparing you to your peers as well as the previous year’s class, plus how many letters has the letter writer done in the past, and there’s a comments section. I like doing a traditional letter in addition because a few lines is not enough to describe a person. Anyone not in Emergency Medicine will do the plain old traditional letter. You really have to have at least one letter from an Emergency Medicine physician. It doesn’t make a whole lot of sense for someone to recommend you to do something other than what they do. Shoot for about four letters of recommendation. I think that’s the limit that ERAS will allow you to do. Take a breath. You don’t have to ask me for you letter of recommendation yet. There’s still time, but you will be asking for that a little further on down the road. If you start shadowing in the ED, and you start bonding with folks as you come in, maybe buddying up to a certain group of attendings, then later on, they can write you a letter of recommendation. They have known you for several years, you have been shadowing in your free time, and they have had multiple discussions with you, this is great. That’s a great letter of recommendation, as opposed to a bad one like, “To whom it may concern. I met Suzie Q during her rotation in my specialty and I recommend her for whatever specialty that she chooses.” All I can say about that person is “tree killer”. What a waste of time. He has no clue who Suzie Q is. “His specialty” and he is recommending her for something else. This is crap, okay? It doesn’t say anything bad about her, but he sure did crucify this student in the process because it’s a crummy letter. You don’t want that. You want this: “I have known this student for multiple years. We’ve been involved in research together. They’ve been coming and shadowing. We’ve had multiple discussions, and I know that they have thought this through very carefully, and they know what they’re getting themselves into. I recommend them very highly and know that they’re going to do a great job.” It’ll be a bit longer than that, but those are the big things that you want to see in that letter.

Minimum board scores? There’s no magic number. Having said that, there are program directors that will apply filters through the Electronic Residency Application Service and say, “I’m not going to take anyone under” whatever number, at least on the first wave of acceptances for interviews. The process works where you send in your application, they kind of ruminate over it, and then they get back to you and say, “Yep. We like what we see here preliminarily. We’d like you to come for an interview.” Then you go to an interview, and then you submit a match list, they submit a match list, magic happens in a computer, and then on Match Day those results are released. People find out where they’re going to be, and programs find out who they’re going to get. You saw that overview already? From somebody? Just making sure we’re internally consistent, right? Alright, average is around 220, it’s good, it’s the middle of the pile. We’ll take some folks that are a little bit lower. We like, obviously, to take folks who are higher, but higher is not always better. Sometimes, if it’s the application of extraordinarily bright people who knock the top off of the board scores, but who have the social skills of a rock. The letters of recommendation will sometimes say, “This person has frequent run-ins with the faculty and staff”, and one letter after the next says that. Why do we want this person? This person would be a great resident in someone else’s program. They can be someone else’s problem child. Those are some of the things we look for because three years is a long time for us to be unhappy, and also when you’re looking at a program, three years is long time for you to be unhappy. Especially in the wrong career choice, so you want to think that through well.

GPA? Again, no magic number. There are things that we like to look for. An A-B student is great. An occasional C, yea, it happens to everybody every once in a while. No problem, you know it happens, been there done that, and learned a lesson from it. We like to see an upward trend. A consistent low GPA is a red flag for us. There’s a huge body of knowledge that goes into Emergency Medicine. You’ve got to be able to read, and you’ve got to be able to comprehend the material, process it, and apply it. There’s just no way around that. If there are problems and glitches, we need some good explanation for it, not an excuse. “Oh, well that person didn’t like him, so they gave him a bad grade.” No. It’s all about earning your grades. You get what you earn. If there’re problems, if there’s a death in the family, and it’s cataclysmic emotionally, that’s certainly justifiable. Your letter writers can address that for you, so you don’t even necessarily have to go there or even allude to it in your personal statement. Remember the personal statement that you had to write for medical school? You get to do another one for residency. And if there are academic issues or blips or blemishes, then you’ll probably have to do something else to recover from that. You’ll need to get involved in a research project, or do an elective in that specialty someplace else to show them what you’re made of, to prove to them that you’re more than just the grades.

I tried making this smaller, but I did not succeed, and I apologize for the busy-ness. Nationally, there are 141 programs, and just under 1500 spots. Last year in the match, 11 of those programs didn’t fill all of their spots, so most programs fill them. There were 1300 seniors applying. There are other applicants, as you can tell by the difference, so there were a lot of other folks also applying for Emergency Medicine spots. Those are folks who have done a year someplace else, and then decide, “I want to go to Emergency Medicine”. Sometimes they’re military applicants, and there’s also the foreign folks who apply through the match. And then there’s the folks who apply outside the match; after the scramble is all done, then they open the playing field for all of the other folks that didn’t go through the match. They can start getting the bits and pieces that are still left over. Matches. Here: 1146 of those 1400 were filled right off the bat in the match by the seniors, and 1459 of the 1472 were filled in the match [i.e. before the scramble], so there’s not a whole lot of empty spots left over as you can tell. 80% went to seniors, 99.1% of spots filled, so there’s not much left over. That’s important for me when I’m sitting on scramble day trying to find somebody a home in Emergency Medicine for someone who didn’t match for some bizarre reason. We’ve been very lucky. We have a very very high success rate in the scramble. Last year I pulled a new rabbit out of my hat. I matched someone who never went to their first interview. Don’t do that! Okay? Don’t do that, but I got one of the few Emergency Medicine spots that were still out there. It was a very bizarre sequence of events, and a very outstanding student. It was actually my idea to try.
Okay, how many spots are there here in 2005, and going to the left to 2009. The number of spots each year continues to grow. There’re a few more programs opening each year, so Emergency Medicine is continuing to expand, not contract. Those PGY2 programs, those 2-4 programs, those are the dwindling ones; like I told you, the Federal Government is pulling back the funding, so they’ve gone from 44 down to a fraction of that, so less and less of those programs. What was the point of this? The point was that Emergency Medicine is becoming more popular. The percentage of students applying to Emergency Medicine is increasing, as are the number of slots. It’s popular. I’d say “naturally” because of Emergency Medicine: it’s great. Is there anything else that I haven’t said here? Oh, typically the folks that I’m sitting down and scrambling for are folks that changed their career choice fairly late in the game. Generally, if they sat down with the advisor long in advance and have gotten their application together, we look for the weaknesses that are there and have done stuff to bolster that. Slow and steady makes the race. You can’t show up on the day before interview season starts, and you’re filling out your application, and say “Oh, there’s a problem here”. You can’t correct it at that point. This is all over the long haul, which is why we’re having these meetings here early. So start early to get them all set.

Okay, requirements. Do your Emergency Medicine month here at ___. I repeat: do your Emergency Medicine month here at ___. We’re the ones who are going to be advising you. Also don’t forget to do your Emergency month here at ___. If you have done your rotation somewhere else and you need a letter of recommendation, I can’t help you because I don’t know you. Again, do your Emergency Medicine month here at ___. You can still do one someplace else. A lot of times I get the question, “Should I do another one someplace else, and how many should I do?” My answer, which is my favorite answer for a lot of questions, is it depends. Those who know me and have worked with me know that that’s my standard answer: it depends. It’s a double edged sword. You may go someplace because there’re some blemishes, and you’re there to kick butt and show them what you’re made of. You better do a good job, because they know exactly what they’re going to get if they match you. If you go to that rotation and show up late and tend to hand off patients and not follow through on patients, they’re going to say, “No way.” You have pretty much done yourself in, and you’re not going to get a good letter of recommendation from them either. Now if you happen to be AOA, walk on water, or brilliant and medicine is your fourth career, and you want to go check and see if a particular school is as good as you heard it was, well you might want to go check it out. I’ve had some students who were very brilliant and thought, “I don’t want to go to that place and come back and think, ‘That was horrible. There’s no way I’m going to rank that place. That was not anything like I thought it was going to be.’” That’s fine.
Regarding shadowing, you can shadow with any attending in the Emergency Department that you want to. Anytime: we’re open 24/7, 365. So if you want to come shadow during your break, that’s fine. During holidays, that’s fine. If you have some time in evening, and you’re just tired of looking at books and want to get away and want to get away for a few hours, come shadow in the ED. That’s fine. Nothing says you have to come in for X amount of time. If two hours is what you’ve got, it’s your nickel. Come check us out. You’re there to learn and find out if it’s something that you’re interested in. And you may decide once you’re down there, “Hey, I’ve seen a lot of surgical patients, and those are really cool. I really like the surgical patients.” You may decide that surgery is what’s for you. Or you like all the psych patients, and you start to get more involved, and decide you want to go into Psychiatry. If you come shadow in the ED and decide you want to go into Psychiatry, I call that a win because we helped you pick out what your niche is. We see such a big diversity of stuff, so even if you’re like, “Ummmm, maybe Emergency Medicine, but I kinda think I should do something else.” That’s fine. The ED is a good place to scope out those other things. We’re not insulted by that. If you want to use us to pick out some other specialties, that’s okay. We’re big kids.
So what should you do? I’ve said it a couple times, but just relax. You’ve still got time. But start early thinking about these things. Don’t waste away your summer. As far as things that are most important in your application, you’ll find that getting so many points or reaching a certain level in your online video game is not one of the things that gets you credit in your residency application. It’s all about beginning with the finish in mind. We do the same thing in Emergency Medicine: it’s all about preparation. Like over here on the left, Dr. [?] is getting ready for trauma patients coming in, and then we go from 0 to 60 in two seconds. We’re prepared for it. It’s not really very chaotic, at least for us, because we were ready for it. We knew what was coming, we kind of knew what to expect, and we were prepared for all of the contingencies.
[He brings up a summary slide with major factors in the application] Points and levels are not on here. You kind of break things apart. Grades in your first two years are important. Grades in your second two years—we consider those separately—including your Emergency Medicine rotation grade. The dean’s letter, which gives us the overview of what has been going on in medical school. Your Step 1 and Step 2 scores. You’ll hear later on that you’re encouraged to get Step 2 out of the way before you finish the application process. Research and publications: good stuff if it happens to be there. If not, it’s not the end of the world, but hopefully there’s some other things to diversify you a little bit more. Long standing interest. Awards and achievements: honor society, boy scout, eagle scout, whatever. Leadership roles. That doesn’t have to necessarily be in medical school. We don’t care if you’re involved in rotary club or you’re in charge of the soup kitchen down at the Salvation Army. Just get out and do something to diversify yourself. It makes you a better person. It rounds you out better all around. There’s that personal statement, and your letters of recommendation that I’ve alluded to already. And after all of that: the interview.

It’s not just Emergency Medicine. There are lots of subspecialties. I’m at the point now where Emergency Medicine is a stepping stone to all of the other cool things that I like doing. Wilderness Medicine, International Medicine, Event Medicine. I like practicing outside the four walls of the ED. Wouldn’t you guys like to do that? We do that. These are all actual things that are boardable subspecialties in Emergency Medicine. There’re other areas that are areas of expertise in Emergency Medicine. It’s a stepping stone for all kinds of cool things. Cool to me, at least. We got some folks on our staff, faculty and residents, who are trained police. They will go out there and catch bad guys. They will also shoot at bad guys, and then go take care of them.
Research. Anything that walks through the door is fair game, so you can do research on anything you want to. It’s all fair stuff. There are a number of organizations in Emergency Medicine [He is referencing a slide with a list of organizations]. There’s a student affiliate of the Emergency Medicine Residency Association, which is part of the American College of Emergency Physicians. I think ___ also has a student representative, but I’m not sure who that is for Emergency Medicine right now. We also have a resident representative. There are Emergency Medicine interest groups. I don’t know if our EM student folks are in here at the moment, but they’re probably going to schedule a meeting. We’ve been doing that through the first part of the year, and we’ll finish up the second part of the year with monthly meetings. There’s usually some pizza, and we’ll talk about something interesting or do something interesting in the form of some kind of workshop. If you want to get involved, stick your nose into it, hang around us and see if your personality fits. Specialties have personalities.

I’m going to have to finish up here, so observe and do something outside [of school]. Shadow, research project, go travel, do something to make yourself a better applicant. Don’t just sit at home and watch TV or play games. Oh, and this is important. Even if it ends up not being Emergency Medicine that is your final career choice, you want to make sure that you don’t put on blinders. I changed my specialty choices a few times during medical school. That’s fine. You can change it in residency later on, because I started out in surgery. Keep in mind that something better may be coming along, and don’t get so focused in on something that you miss a good opportunity for something that fits you even better. Leave yourself open to the possibility of change.
If you want to do EMS, if you think you’re interested in pre-hospital care and you want to do ambulance ride-alongs, that’s fine. We can arrange for you to fly in the helicopter, if that something that seems cool to you. There’s stiff competition for that stuff, and you have to be patient. We can’t get you on there tomorrow, but maybe in a few weeks or something like that. Just do something more than study. Book nerds are fine, but book nerds don’t do well in the chaotic environment of the ED. You can’t sit there and be thinking and processing all of this stuff before you make your first move. You have to do a little leap of faith, use some intuition, and do other things. An unconscious patient comes in, he’s not breathing, and his heart has stopped. I’m not going to sit there and order some lab tests. He’s not breathing! His heart has stopped! I’ve got to do stuff and figure out afterward what’s going on. There’s a good bit of leap of faith in this stuff, and at the same time you’re being bombarded with information. Here are the vital signs, look at the blood pressure, look at the heart rate, here’s what his EKG looks like, here’s the family history, plus the EMT had some problems with medication, and here’s what we did in the field already, we’re having issues finding IV access, and we can’t get him intubated. All of that stuff is coming in at the same time and you have to sort through it and be able to do it. You may be all right if you have ten minutes to go get a cup of coffee and get all of the answers, but that’s ten minutes that you don’t have at the beside. Not everyone processes the same way. That’s not meant to be mean or a slur in anyway; people are different. People are different, and we have to find out niche.
 
Last edited:
Can someone summarize the summary?

Here's a summary of our EM match advisory meeting..


__________________

Wow, big turnout. Everyone wants to go into Emergency Medicine? That's a lot of you to match. Okay, so this is supposed to be preparation for a career in Emergency Medicine. So you want to be an ER doc? I guess the first thing you should realize is that it's misspelled. It's ED. I work in an Emergency Department. It's not just a single room, and the specialty is actually called Emergency Medicine. So when you talk to someone in Emergency Medicine, or you talk about your career in Emergency Medicine, you don't call it "ER Medicine", you call it Emergency Medicine. I'm not insane about it, but some people have a tendency to go on about it.
So the TV show, which I'm sure you all watch. I've never watched it; I get a good dosing of it every day when I'm at work. Based on what I've heard, the descriptions of it, is it as realistic as the things that I've got drawn up here? No.
Alright, so Emergency Medicine and the Match. First of all, if you start looking through programs (and don't worry, you don't have to go do this tonight; you've got time) you'll get an idea of what's out there on the horizon and get an idea of the landscape. There are different formats for residency training programs in Emergency Medicine. We kind of came along after all of the other specialties were long established already. We started out with most of the programs being four year programs, but some were three year programs. The three year programs said, "We can do it better because we can do it in three years", and the four year programs said, "We crank out a better product". The Federal Government finally decided "enough is enough. If some say three years and some say four years, then we'll pay for three and a half years", so a lot of the programs who were using four years are systematically folding because they can't afford it. Medicaid and the Federal Government pay for a lot of residency training programs: the salaries for the residents. So since folks aren't independently wealthy, they're switching over to a three year format. ___ used to have a four year format. I thought it was a great thing. I know you guys want to be out as quickly as possible, but that's the real scoop. There are 1-4 programs; 2-4 programs, where you do an internship somewhere else and then go into Emergency Medicine; and 1-3 programs. We are now a 1-3 program.
You cannot get boarded without being residency trained in Emergency Medicine. It's kind of weird: you can do Family Medicine, you can do Internal Medicine, you can do Psychiatry, and you can go work in an ED. Many EDs will hire you because you have an MD degree and you have a pulse. That's all that's required. If you're going to be a teaching facilitator, they require board certification. Having said that, there's also a new rogue organization, not the American Board of Medical Examiners, but another side group that is making their own board, so when you say, "Oh yea, I'm boarded", people are getting confused about it. So we have to figure out if it's the real Emergency Medicine or is it the pseudo Emergency Medicine where you do internship, practice on the job, and wiggle your way in.
What are the minimums? There aren't really a whole lot of minimums. You have to go to medical school, you have to finish, and if you match in a 2-4 program, you have to go to internship (in anything). Is everyone clear on the differences between internship and first year residency? I don't see a single hand. You! Okay, thank you for asking. There is no difference. In the old days, internship was basically nothing more than a fifth year of medical school, except you got paid instead of having to pay for it and it counted towards your residency training program. As specialties became more complex, and the body of knowledge required for that specialty became bigger and bigger, most of the specialties started capturing the internship year and saying, "We'll just pull you right into residency". Nowadays all specialties do that, so the first year of residency is synonymous with the word "internship". There is no difference. Good job being honest and asking that question. You have a chance in Emergency Medicine. That's actually not too far off the mark. Every time I ask for a consult in the ED, I'm asking for help. Every time I ask a service to come down and admit the patient, I'm asking for help. The patient is now beyond what I can take care of in the Emergency Department, and I have to have help. The patient has to be admitted to continue care. I ask for help all of the time. All the time. There's no shame in it.

Okay, what sets an applicant apart? Longstanding interest in the specialty is a good thing. That doesn't mean that you have the entire series of "ER" on DVD in your home collection. That does not count as commitment. Maybe some of you have a prior career in EMS. Maybe you were a nurse in Emergency Medicine. Maybe you spent a long time volunteering, and you were working as a clerk in an ED, and then became a tech in the ED. Just a longstanding interest and commitment in the specialty, as opposed to the person who in December on their EM rotation says, "Hey, this is a good thing, I think I'll apply." That's the person that program directors will think, "I wonder if they're going to bail on me six months or a year later when they suddenly decide, ‘I want to do what those guys are doing over there instead of what I'm doing now.'" Program directors don't like that. They don't like holes in their residency program.

Diversity. Everyone likes diversity. It's much more interesting, much more fun. They also have a larger base of stuff that they can drawn on when faced with challenge. In Emergency Medicine, the challenge is basically to take care of anything that walks through the door. Everything is fair game, no matter what. Anything that walks through the door is mine to take care of and stabilize until whatever specialty I call on to help me can pick up the care.
Research requirements. Regardless of what you end up going into, 99% of what I'm talking about up here is useful for any specialty. It's not specific to Emergency Medicine. Programs have some kind of research requirement. It's interpreted differently by different places. Most folks have it as, "You will do something of publishable quality." Whether it gets published or not, that's up to the publishers, and no one has any divine knowledge of what motivates them necessarily. [You'll do] something of publishable quality. There are some places that interpret it very loosy goosy. We [also] have journal club, where we work on statistical methods a little bit. If you have had some prior research experience, that just means that the program director is not likely to come after you because you're having a problem doing your research requirement. Like the person who after two years still hasn't finished their research requirement, and you finally have to threaten them: "If you do no submit this in the next six months, then we are not going to allow you to sit for boards, and you will have to repeat a residency someplace. Good luck." We don't like dragging things along like that.

AOA? Do you have to be AOA? No, you don't. It's nice, but it only goes to a handful of folks, and if we relied on that, there would be an even bigger shortage of Emergency Physicians. I wasn't AOA. I didn't get close. I didn't have the grades for it.

Letters of recommendation tips. In Emergency Medicine for 5-6 years now, we have been using a standardized format to try to level the playing field a little bit. Anyone who sits on the panel and goes through all of the applications knows that there's a whole gaming to the system as far as letters goes. Anyone who has ever read military letters knows that they're all glowing, they all walk on water. There's a special way of reading those to kind of tease through it and see the subtleties that are there, otherwise everyone is great and wonderful. But there are good letters and there are not-so-good letters. There's no such thing as a bad letter, per se. So we use a standardized form. It's basically a row of check boxes comparing you to your peers as well as the previous year's class, plus how many letters has the letter writer done in the past, and there's a comments section. I like doing a traditional letter in addition because a few lines is not enough to describe a person. Anyone not in Emergency Medicine will do the plain old traditional letter. You really have to have at least one letter from an Emergency Medicine physician. It doesn't make a whole lot of sense for someone to recommend you to do something other than what they do. Shoot for about four letters of recommendation. I think that's the limit that ERAS will allow you to do. Take a breath. You don't have to ask me for you letter of recommendation yet. There's still time, but you will be asking for that a little further on down the road. If you start shadowing in the ED, and you start bonding with folks as you come in, maybe buddying up to a certain group of attendings, then later on, they can write you a letter of recommendation. They have known you for several years, you have been shadowing in your free time, and they have had multiple discussions with you, this is great. That's a great letter of recommendation, as opposed to a bad one like, "To whom it may concern. I met Suzie Q during her rotation in my specialty and I recommend her for whatever specialty that she chooses." All I can say about that person is "tree killer". What a waste of time. He has no clue who Suzie Q is. "His specialty" and he is recommending her for something else. This is crap, okay? It doesn't say anything bad about her, but he sure did crucify this student in the process because it's a crummy letter. You don't want that. You want this: "I have known this student for multiple years. We've been involved in research together. They've been coming and shadowing. We've had multiple discussions, and I know that they have thought this through very carefully, and they know what they're getting themselves into. I recommend them very highly and know that they're going to do a great job." It'll be a bit longer than that, but those are the big things that you want to see in that letter.

Minimum board scores? There's no magic number. Having said that, there are program directors that will apply filters through the Electronic Residency Application Service and say, "I'm not going to take anyone under" whatever number, at least on the first wave of acceptances for interviews. The process works where you send in your application, they kind of ruminate over it, and then they get back to you and say, "Yep. We like what we see here preliminarily. We'd like you to come for an interview." Then you go to an interview, and then you submit a match list, they submit a match list, magic happens in a computer, and then on Match Day those results are released. People find out where they're going to be, and programs find out who they're going to get. You saw that overview already? From somebody? Just making sure we're internally consistent, right? Alright, average is around 220, it's good, it's the middle of the pile. We'll take some folks that are a little bit lower. We like, obviously, to take folks who are higher, but higher is not always better. Sometimes, if it's the application of extraordinarily bright people who knock the top off of the board scores, but who have the social skills of a rock. The letters of recommendation will sometimes say, "This person has frequent run-ins with the faculty and staff", and one letter after the next says that. Why do we want this person? This person would be a great resident in someone else's program. They can be someone else's problem child. Those are some of the things we look for because three years is a long time for us to be unhappy, and also when you're looking at a program, three years is long time for you to be unhappy. Especially in the wrong career choice, so you want to think that through well.

GPA? Again, no magic number. There are things that we like to look for. An A-B student is great. An occasional C, yea, it happens to everybody every once in a while. No problem, you know it happens, been there done that, and learned a lesson from it. We like to see an upward trend. A consistent low GPA is a red flag for us. There's a huge body of knowledge that goes into Emergency Medicine. You've got to be able to read, and you've got to be able to comprehend the material, process it, and apply it. There's just no way around that. If there are problems and glitches, we need some good explanation for it, not an excuse. "Oh, well that person didn't like him, so they gave him a bad grade." No. It's all about earning your grades. You get what you earn. If there're problems, if there's a death in the family, and it's cataclysmic emotionally, that's certainly justifiable. Your letter writers can address that for you, so you don't even necessarily have to go there or even allude to it in your personal statement. Remember the personal statement that you had to write for medical school? You get to do another one for residency. And if there are academic issues or blips or blemishes, then you'll probably have to do something else to recover from that. You'll need to get involved in a research project, or do an elective in that specialty someplace else to show them what you're made of, to prove to them that you're more than just the grades.

I tried making this smaller, but I did not succeed, and I apologize for the busy-ness. Nationally, there are 141 programs, and just under 1500 spots. Last year in the match, 11 of those programs didn't fill all of their spots, so most programs fill them. There were 1300 seniors applying. There are other applicants, as you can tell by the difference, so there were a lot of other folks also applying for Emergency Medicine spots. Those are folks who have done a year someplace else, and then decide, "I want to go to Emergency Medicine". Sometimes they're military applicants, and there's also the foreign folks who apply through the match. And then there's the folks who apply outside the match; after the scramble is all done, then they open the playing field for all of the other folks that didn't go through the match. They can start getting the bits and pieces that are still left over. Matches. Here: 1146 of those 1400 were filled right off the bat in the match by the seniors, and 1459 of the 1472 were filled in the match [i.e. before the scramble], so there's not a whole lot of empty spots left over as you can tell. 80% went to seniors, 99.1% of spots filled, so there's not much left over. That's important for me when I'm sitting on scramble day trying to find somebody a home in Emergency Medicine for someone who didn't match for some bizarre reason. We've been very lucky. We have a very very high success rate in the scramble. Last year I pulled a new rabbit out of my hat. I matched someone who never went to their first interview. Don't do that! Okay? Don't do that, but I got one of the few Emergency Medicine spots that were still out there. It was a very bizarre sequence of events, and a very outstanding student. It was actually my idea to try.
Okay, how many spots are there here in 2005, and going to the left to 2009. The number of spots each year continues to grow. There're a few more programs opening each year, so Emergency Medicine is continuing to expand, not contract. Those PGY2 programs, those 2-4 programs, those are the dwindling ones; like I told you, the Federal Government is pulling back the funding, so they've gone from 44 down to a fraction of that, so less and less of those programs. What was the point of this? The point was that Emergency Medicine is becoming more popular. The percentage of students applying to Emergency Medicine is increasing, as are the number of slots. It's popular. I'd say "naturally" because of Emergency Medicine: it's great. Is there anything else that I haven't said here? Oh, typically the folks that I'm sitting down and scrambling for are folks that changed their career choice fairly late in the game. Generally, if they sat down with the advisor long in advance and have gotten their application together, we look for the weaknesses that are there and have done stuff to bolster that. Slow and steady makes the race. You can't show up on the day before interview season starts, and you're filling out your application, and say "Oh, there's a problem here". You can't correct it at that point. This is all over the long haul, which is why we're having these meetings here early. So start early to get them all set.

Okay, requirements. Do your Emergency Medicine month here at ___. I repeat: do your Emergency Medicine month here at ___. We're the ones who are going to be advising you. Also don't forget to do your Emergency month here at ___. If you have done your rotation somewhere else and you need a letter of recommendation, I can't help you because I don't know you. Again, do your Emergency Medicine month here at ___. You can still do one someplace else. A lot of times I get the question, "Should I do another one someplace else, and how many should I do?" My answer, which is my favorite answer for a lot of questions, is it depends. Those who know me and have worked with me know that that's my standard answer: it depends. It's a double edged sword. You may go someplace because there're some blemishes, and you're there to kick butt and show them what you're made of. You better do a good job, because they know exactly what they're going to get if they match you. If you go to that rotation and show up late and tend to hand off patients and not follow through on patients, they're going to say, "No way." You have pretty much done yourself in, and you're not going to get a good letter of recommendation from them either. Now if you happen to be AOA, walk on water, or brilliant and medicine is your fourth career, and you want to go check and see if a particular school is as good as you heard it was, well you might want to go check it out. I've had some students who were very brilliant and thought, "I don't want to go to that place and come back and think, ‘That was horrible. There's no way I'm going to rank that place. That was not anything like I thought it was going to be.'" That's fine.
Regarding shadowing, you can shadow with any attending in the Emergency Department that you want to. Anytime: we're open 24/7, 365. So if you want to come shadow during your break, that's fine. During holidays, that's fine. If you have some time in evening, and you're just tired of looking at books and want to get away and want to get away for a few hours, come shadow in the ED. That's fine. Nothing says you have to come in for X amount of time. If two hours is what you've got, it's your nickel. Come check us out. You're there to learn and find out if it's something that you're interested in. And you may decide once you're down there, "Hey, I've seen a lot of surgical patients, and those are really cool. I really like the surgical patients." You may decide that surgery is what's for you. Or you like all the psych patients, and you start to get more involved, and decide you want to go into Psychiatry. If you come shadow in the ED and decide you want to go into Psychiatry, I call that a win because we helped you pick out what your niche is. We see such a big diversity of stuff, so even if you're like, "Ummmm, maybe Emergency Medicine, but I kinda think I should do something else." That's fine. The ED is a good place to scope out those other things. We're not insulted by that. If you want to use us to pick out some other specialties, that's okay. We're big kids.
So what should you do? I've said it a couple times, but just relax. You've still got time. But start early thinking about these things. Don't waste away your summer. As far as things that are most important in your application, you'll find that getting so many points or reaching a certain level in your online video game is not one of the things that gets you credit in your residency application. It's all about beginning with the finish in mind. We do the same thing in Emergency Medicine: it's all about preparation. Like over here on the left, Dr. [?] is getting ready for trauma patients coming in, and then we go from 0 to 60 in two seconds. We're prepared for it. It's not really very chaotic, at least for us, because we were ready for it. We knew what was coming, we kind of knew what to expect, and we were prepared for all of the contingencies.
[He brings up a summary slide with major factors in the application] Points and levels are not on here. You kind of break things apart. Grades in your first two years are important. Grades in your second two years—we consider those separately—including your Emergency Medicine rotation grade. The dean's letter, which gives us the overview of what has been going on in medical school. Your Step 1 and Step 2 scores. You'll hear later on that you're encouraged to get Step 2 out of the way before you finish the application process. Research and publications: good stuff if it happens to be there. If not, it's not the end of the world, but hopefully there's some other things to diversify you a little bit more. Long standing interest. Awards and achievements: honor society, boy scout, eagle scout, whatever. Leadership roles. That doesn't have to necessarily be in medical school. We don't care if you're involved in rotary club or you're in charge of the soup kitchen down at the Salvation Army. Just get out and do something to diversify yourself. It makes you a better person. It rounds you out better all around. There's that personal statement, and your letters of recommendation that I've alluded to already. And after all of that: the interview.

It's not just Emergency Medicine. There are lots of subspecialties. I'm at the point now where Emergency Medicine is a stepping stone to all of the other cool things that I like doing. Wilderness Medicine, International Medicine, Event Medicine. I like practicing outside the four walls of the ED. Wouldn't you guys like to do that? We do that. These are all actual things that are boardable subspecialties in Emergency Medicine. There're other areas that are areas of expertise in Emergency Medicine. It's a stepping stone for all kinds of cool things. Cool to me, at least. We got some folks on our staff, faculty and residents, who are trained police. They will go out there and catch bad guys. They will also shoot at bad guys, and then go take care of them.
Research. Anything that walks through the door is fair game, so you can do research on anything you want to. It's all fair stuff. There are a number of organizations in Emergency Medicine [He is referencing a slide with a list of organizations]. There's a student affiliate of the Emergency Medicine Residency Association, which is part of the American College of Emergency Physicians. I think ___ also has a student representative, but I'm not sure who that is for Emergency Medicine right now. We also have a resident representative. There are Emergency Medicine interest groups. I don't know if our EM student folks are in here at the moment, but they're probably going to schedule a meeting. We've been doing that through the first part of the year, and we'll finish up the second part of the year with monthly meetings. There's usually some pizza, and we'll talk about something interesting or do something interesting in the form of some kind of workshop. If you want to get involved, stick your nose into it, hang around us and see if your personality fits. Specialties have personalities.

I'm going to have to finish up here, so observe and do something outside [of school]. Shadow, research project, go travel, do something to make yourself a better applicant. Don't just sit at home and watch TV or play games. Oh, and this is important. Even if it ends up not being Emergency Medicine that is your final career choice, you want to make sure that you don't put on blinders. I changed my specialty choices a few times during medical school. That's fine. You can change it in residency later on, because I started out in surgery. Keep in mind that something better may be coming along, and don't get so focused in on something that you miss a good opportunity for something that fits you even better. Leave yourself open to the possibility of change.
If you want to do EMS, if you think you're interested in pre-hospital care and you want to do ambulance ride-alongs, that's fine. We can arrange for you to fly in the helicopter, if that something that seems cool to you. There's stiff competition for that stuff, and you have to be patient. We can't get you on there tomorrow, but maybe in a few weeks or something like that. Just do something more than study. Book nerds are fine, but book nerds don't do well in the chaotic environment of the ED. You can't sit there and be thinking and processing all of this stuff before you make your first move. You have to do a little leap of faith, use some intuition, and do other things. An unconscious patient comes in, he's not breathing, and his heart has stopped. I'm not going to sit there and order some lab tests. He's not breathing! His heart has stopped! I've got to do stuff and figure out afterward what's going on. There's a good bit of leap of faith in this stuff, and at the same time you're being bombarded with information. Here are the vital signs, look at the blood pressure, look at the heart rate, here's what his EKG looks like, here's the family history, plus the EMT had some problems with medication, and here's what we did in the field already, we're having issues finding IV access, and we can't get him intubated. All of that stuff is coming in at the same time and you have to sort through it and be able to do it. You may be all right if you have ten minutes to go get a cup of coffee and get all of the answers, but that's ten minutes that you don't have at the beside. Not everyone processes the same way. That's not meant to be mean or a slur in anyway; people are different. People are different, and we have to find out niche.
 
lol..sadly, I'm not trying to be funny. 116/250 people in my class got honors in biochem. That means I'm in the bottom 50%. 🙁


Considering our third exam grades for biochem haven't come out yet and that counts for 32% of our grade I am very confused how you know the number of people that honored in the class. With such a large percent of the grade still out I would think the number of people who finish above 90% could be very different. Either way, this is only our second class! I don't think class rank really starts to matter until we have more classes behind us.
 
Here's a summary of our EM match advisory meeting..


__________________

Wow, big turnout. Everyone wants to go into Emergency Medicine? That's a lot of you to match. Okay, so this is supposed to be preparation for a career in Emergency Medicine. So you want to be an ER doc?

*snip*

I couldn't get through all of that.

It's not the amount of text, it's the unnecessary humor. Unreadable. Sorry.

🙁


edit: Reading a little more... it lightens up later on. It's not so bad. Terrible intro.
 
Just to clear things up. 37% of the class got honors not 50%.
 
Actually genocide would only help the OP by eliminating competition :laugh:

oh no u didn't


edit: to the op: those seem like really good grades. that's high pass at my school--really good! don't worry--and all the community service you are doing is great!
 
Last edited:
People like the OP are one of the most annoying things in medical school.

Seriously? You got an 89% in Embryo and are worried about your future?

Most people who do that, in my opinion, are not really worried...they are just jerks who loooove to sneak in their high grades into any conversation they have. I would laugh if it wasn't so pervasive in SDN.
 
People like the OP are one of the most annoying things in medical school.

Seriously? You got an 89% in Embryo and are worried about your future?

Most people who do that, in my opinion, are not really worried...they are just jerks who loooove to sneak in their high grades into any conversation they have. I would laugh if it wasn't so pervasive in SDN.


The OP seems to suffer from a social disfunction

Either that, or she's never been laid.
 
People like the OP are one of the most annoying things in medical school.

Seriously? You got an 89% in Embryo and are worried about your future?

Most people who do that, in my opinion, are not really worried...they are just jerks who loooove to sneak in their high grades into any conversation they have. I would laugh if it wasn't so pervasive in SDN.

Actually, the OP has a valid reason for asking. At our school an 89% is not distinguished from a 70% for any class in the first two years. They both get reported as a Pass and nothing more. No record of the actual score sticks with us and it is not used to determine class rank. So far we have finished two classes with ~12% honoring anatomy and ~37% honoring MCBM. Most likely there is some over lap with who honored the classes so we have three possible positions for current class rank (HH, HP, PP). If the OP got an 89% in both classes she is now in the bottom 1/3rd of the class rank even though she did very well in both classes.

Maybe now you can fathom how, if this trend continues, the OP would be worried about not being able to distinguish herself in her class rank and thus in her Dean's letter.
 
Actually, the OP has a valid reason for asking. At our school an 89% is not distinguished from a 70% for any class in the first two years. They both get reported as a Pass and nothing more. No record of the actual score sticks with us and it is not used to determine class rank.

I think that actually there was some way of determining class rank - the grades don't get reported on your transcript, but the registrar's office still keeps a record of the actual percentage you got on your exams. The dean's office then uses that to determine class rank/AOA eligibility, etc. At least, that's how I remember it being when I was an MS2 at the OP's school.

In any case, it shouldn't really matter. Your third year grades are worth twice as much as your MS1 and MS2 grades when they calculate class rank. Plus, your MS3 grades are what really distinguish you in the dean's letter.
 
I think that actually there was some way of determining class rank - the grades don't get reported on your transcript, but the registrar's office still keeps a record of the actual percentage you got on your exams. The dean's office then uses that to determine class rank/AOA eligibility, etc. At least, that's how I remember it being when I was an MS2 at the OP's school.

In any case, it shouldn't really matter. Your third year grades are worth twice as much as your MS1 and MS2 grades when they calculate class rank. Plus, your MS3 grades are what really distinguish you in the dean's letter.

In some schools the above is true at others it's different. At my two schools, one private Ivy and the other state, the rankings are calculated by grades from years one and two for AOA status at third year. For AOA fourth year, grades from year three are included but for the most part, the top 10% of the class doesn't change after year 3.

Year 3 grades may or may not distinguish a student for the MSPE. While having a good third year can help people who struggled in years 1 and 2, the third year grades do not erase years 1 and 2. With the pass/fail schools, third year grades (and board exam scores) do take on more importance but not all schools are using a pass/fail system.

For the most part, a student needs to do the best that they can in every year and on boards. Unless you fail out of a school, not too many specialties become out of reach after year one because a student didn't receive honors in every course. Worrying about a particular specialty before one every sets foot in the hospital in a clinical rotation is pretty useless and largely a total waste of time.

Getting the "pre-med" syndrome out of your system early helps with keeping your career on track. If one is constantly lamenting what grades you did or didn't get, they are wasting time that could be put to use preparing for coursework better. In short, only a few people from every class will be the top students so learn to live with the fact that if you passed everything, each semester you get a shot at doing well in then next group of classes until school is done. What is done is behind you and no amount on angst is going to change your grade nor is constantly comparing yourself with others in the class.

Challenge yourself to do better and keep moving forward. In the end, you actually get better results and waste less time.
 
To the OP:
Worry more about your clinical years, and what you can do now to make you able to learn more then. Try to break the ice now so that, on your rotations, you feel comfortable enough with the environment to focus on content more than the, "crap, where/what is X?"

Don't ever believe you should eliminate activities to study. You need to do something else to relieve stress, stay in shape, and have a life.
 
In some schools the above is true at others it's different.

That's true. However, I'm speaking specifically to the OP's school, since that is also where I attended med school.

Getting the "pre-med" syndrome out of your system early helps with keeping your career on track. If one is constantly lamenting what grades you did or didn't get, they are wasting time that could be put to use preparing for coursework better. In short, only a few people from every class will be the top students so learn to live with the fact that if you passed everything, each semester you get a shot at doing well in then next group of classes until school is done. What is done is behind you and no amount on angst is going to change your grade nor is constantly comparing yourself with others in the class.

Challenge yourself to do better and keep moving forward. In the end, you actually get better results and waste less time.

Good advice. 👍
 
I think that actually there was some way of determining class rank - the grades don't get reported on your transcript, but the registrar's office still keeps a record of the actual percentage you got on your exams. The dean's office then uses that to determine class rank/AOA eligibility, etc. At least, that's how I remember it being when I was an MS2 at the OP's school.

In any case, it shouldn't really matter. Your third year grades are worth twice as much as your MS1 and MS2 grades when they calculate class rank. Plus, your MS3 grades are what really distinguish you in the dean's letter.

I'm not sure if things have changed since you were here but I am sure the percent grades are not used for calculations. I asked the course directors of both Anatomy and MCBM as well as a Dean. The numerical grades are never reported to the registrar and no one will see them again following the end of that specific class.
 
Top