Muslim students in medical school: how to deal with patients of opposite sex

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doctor musafira

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If you're a knowledgable muslim, you know what I'm asking about. Islam prohibits the touching of a non-mahram member of the opposite sex, so how do muslim students with taqwa deal with this in med school when seeing patients? Is there any leeway in Islam regarding this matter? Or is there any possible way out of this during medical school?

peace

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A male Muslim student at my school apparently got permission to not work with female standardized patients (that is, female actors pretending to be patients), but there is no way that's going to fly during M3 and M4 with real patients, and even during M2 he must have learned how to do female pelvic exams. Do devout (very lose translation of taqwa, I guess) Muslims really not touch non family members even in a medical context?
 
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In all seriousness, have you considered looking into medical school in Saudi Arabia or something like that?
 
I would discuss this with a spiritual leader. In my understanding, even the most conservative Islamic groups make exceptions for medical examination and education. If this is an impassible issue for you, you unfortunately won't be able to be a doctor. It is impossible to be trained only to treat one sex.
 
Look, if you can't fulfill the core requirements of medical education, then you shouldn't enter medical school, period.

Many of the Muslim friends I met from Bangladesh eat pork, ham, pepperoni, bacon ... 😱
 
I would discuss this with a spiritual leader. In my understanding, even the most conservative Islamic groups make exceptions for medical examination and education. If this is an impassible issue for you, you unfortunately won't be able to be a doctor. It is impossible to be trained only to treat one sex.

For medical and career purposes, there are definitely exceptions. Physicians are caring for the sick and helping them get better. This is not only permissible, but an act of good deed.

Everything is really about the context. In the religion, it's not permissible to excessively mix with the opposite gender for entertainment or recreational purposes, but for instances such as in the medical context it's definitely permissible.
 
For medical and career purposes, there are definitely exceptions. Physicians are caring for the sick and helping them get better. This is not only permissible, but an act of good deed.

Everything is really about the context. In the religion, it's not permissible to excessively mix with the opposite gender for entertainment or recreational purposes, but for instances such as in the medical context it's definitely permissible.

I would definitely say there must be exceptions, otherwise there wouldn't be any healthcare practitioners that are muslim...Either that, or they're just not all devout.

Along the lines of not being devout, I know plenty of islamic people who mimx with hte opposite gender for "recreational" purposes, granted, it's somewhat related to "healthcare purposes".
 
Many of the Muslim friends I met from Bangladesh eat pork, ham, pepperoni, bacon ... 😱

Then they're as Muslim as I am a ballerina. But realistically its not that uncommon for most people to simply not observe certain aspects of religion. ( Most Bangledesh Muslims aren't very conservative in adherence. I know many and have been at a Bangledeshi marriage, and not a single women worse a hajab or a single man abstained from alcohol and pork.)

To the OP, you are wearing gloves. Thus you are not touching them. The gloves are.
 
Either get over it, or get out of medicine. I really can't think of any careers where you won't at least have to shake hands with women though, so I suggest you get over it.
 
If you're a knowledgable muslim, you know what I'm asking about. Islam prohibits the touching of a non-mahram member of the opposite sex, so how do muslim students with taqwa deal with this in med school when seeing patients? Is there any leeway in Islam regarding this matter? Or is there any possible way out of this during medical school?

peace

According to this site on Islamic ethics, it's okay:

http://www.islamset.com/ethics/topics/medexam.html

According to this one, it's not:

http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/20460
 
In Islam, necessity permits the impermissible. The impermissible in this case is touching the opposite gender (this is in the context of lustful/sexual contact by the way) and the necessity is to preserve life (health care). One of the core principles in Islamic legal methodology is to preserve life. So it isn't a matter of "leeway" it is firmly established that physical interaction with the opposite gender is necessary in medical practice.

Not to mention, a huge chunk of practicing American physicians are Muslim.
 
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To be honest, you might want to think about making a career change.
 
You have two choices.

1. Listen to the muslims in this thread who have found nice little loopholes to break divine commandment. Of course, you can justify almost anything with the subjective excuse of "context," and a job is not a "necessity," but as long as you don't find these laws absolute then you're good to go.

2. Don't become a doctor. If you cling so strongly to your religion that you can't fulfill simple job requirements, you should find a different career. Whatever you do, don't ask for special privileges for your superstitions. The kind of special privileges you would need are unacceptable.
 
I would discuss this with a spiritual leader. In my understanding, even the most conservative Islamic groups make exceptions for medical examination and education. If this is an impassible issue for you, you unfortunately won't be able to be a doctor. It is impossible to be trained only to treat one sex.

The MOST conservative Muslim groups certainly would not allow this. And if someone is that conservative, they shouldn't be practicing medicine - whether they're a man who can't work with female patients, or a woman who wants to wear an all-encompassing robe into surgery. Not to say that this is just an Islamic thing, of course...forbidding mixed sex contact isn't unique to conservative Islam. Ultra-Orthodox Jews have the exact same rules against physical contact with the opposite sex, and I'm sure there are hyper-Christian people out there who feel the same way.
 
Then they're as Muslim as I am a ballerina. But realistically its not that uncommon for most people to simply not observe certain aspects of religion. ( Most Bangledesh Muslims aren't very conservative in adherence. I know many and have been at a Bangledeshi marriage, and not a single women worse a hajab or a single man abstained from alcohol and pork.)

To the OP, you are wearing gloves. Thus you are not touching them. The gloves are.

I lol'd
 
2. Don't become a doctor. If you cling so strongly to your religion that you can't fulfill simple job requirements, you should find a different career. Whatever you do, don't ask for special privileges for your superstitions. The kind of special privileges you would need are unacceptable.

If this isn't a troll post, then QFT. I usually hate how people say "please don't become a doctor" so readily on SDN, but if you are not willing to become competent in as many areas of basic medicine as you can and possibly disregard ~50% of the patient population because of religious teachings then it's my opinion that you don't belong in medical school.
 
Ah religion. Is there nothing that you won't slide your backward ass into?
 
If this isn't a troll post, then QFT. I usually hate how people say "please don't become a doctor" so readily on SDN, but if you are not willing to become competent in as many areas of basic medicine as you can and possibly disregard ~50% of the patient population because of religious teachings then it's my opinion that you don't belong in medical school.

I usually dislike those posts as well, CityLights. I too feel that this one is warranted.
 
The MOST conservative Muslim groups certainly would not allow this. And if someone is that conservative, they shouldn't be practicing medicine - whether they're a man who can't work with female patients, or a woman who wants to wear an all-encompassing robe into surgery. Not to say that this is just an Islamic thing, of course...forbidding mixed sex contact isn't unique to conservative Islam. Ultra-Orthodox Jews have the exact same rules against physical contact with the opposite sex, and I'm sure there are hyper-Christian people out there who feel the same way.

Actually they do. The very nature of medical care and training will involve touching between sexes. It's pretty much unavoidable. I'm sure you could dig up some extreme fringe group that would allow a woman to die before being treated by a male doctor, but the vast majority of even very orthodox communities allow intersex touching in a medical context.
 
Then they're as Muslim as I am a ballerina. But realistically its not that uncommon for most people to simply not observe certain aspects of religion. ( Most Bangledesh Muslims aren't very conservative in adherence. I know many and have been at a Bangledeshi marriage, and not a single women worse a hajab or a single man abstained from alcohol and pork.)

To the OP, you are wearing gloves. Thus you are not touching them. The gloves are.

Does this apply to condoms?

"I didn't cheat on you honey...the condom did!"
 
The MOST conservative Muslim groups certainly would not allow this. And if someone is that conservative, they shouldn't be practicing medicine - whether they're a man who can't work with female patients, or a woman who wants to wear an all-encompassing robe into surgery. Not to say that this is just an Islamic thing, of course...forbidding mixed sex contact isn't unique to conservative Islam. Ultra-Orthodox Jews have the exact same rules against physical contact with the opposite sex, and I'm sure there are hyper-Christian people out there who feel the same way.

Not sure about "hyper-Christian people", whatever they are, but even the most Ultra-Orthodox Jews have no problem with the physician and patient being of opposite sexes, although they would forbid male female contact under any other circumstances.
 
so your religion basically has a cooties policy?
 
All medical schools have "technical standards" and you have to sign every year. For example I have copied/pasted my schools standards below.

Considering one of the requirements is ability to examine patients, I would think that not examining patients of the opposite sex would not work. I don't see many medical schools considering that a "reasonable arrangement."

Additionally, I doubt that the USMLE Step 2 CS would be willing to accommodate you by creating an entire 12 patient exam for you made of men. Not only would it not test your ability to examen a woman it would also be an impossible endeavor considering 24 people take the exam at a given time.

Lastly, during residency you are a work horse. You have to work in a variety of settings regardless of your chosen specialty. I don't see any residency being willing to put the extra workload on other residents just so you would never touch a patient of the opposite sex. And if you were on call one night and you were the only resident on then you would be completely stuck...how do you care for an ill patient in the middle of the night if you are the only one there?

Overall, considering all the steps along the way that you would have to be sure to find a program willing to accommodate you (pretty impossible), I think you have three choices:
1) Give up that aspect of your faith and touch patients of the opposite sex.
2) Don't become a physician.
3) Go to a country that is more predominantly muslim where they may be set up to accommodate you.

Good luck.







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My religion/superstitious beliefs doesn't believe in medicine, but I still plan on becoming a physician. When patients ask me to heal them, I will just look at them and pray for them. If they are meant to be healed, it will be made so. 😎
 
I'm a Muslim and from my understanding doctors are exempt from a lot of gender contact rules in conservative Islam. You're not going around touching men to get a kick out of it. Even in the Islamic Republic of Iran (Pakistan too I believe) female doctors are allowed to treat men and male doctors are allowed to treat women (they even have male Ob/Gyns and female urologists). I am guessing you are following Wahhabi Islam? If you are following Wahhabi Islam and the 18th century Muslim scholar Muhammad Ibn Abd-al-Wahhab's teachings, then no, you can't. If you're practicing a mainstream form of Sunni or Shia Islam then yes, you can touch members of the other gender.
 
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Is it not a core belief of your religion to protect all life (not just those of your family and of other muslims)? If not, is it YOUR belief that you should do all that you can do for your patient so that you might provide him/her with the best care that you possibly can?

Everything you learn in medical school could potentially be used to help someone later on down the road. It might even save their life. Why would you shortchange your patient or your training by not taking in everything you can.

If you were the only doctor around, would you let someone die because they were the opposite sex, and your interpretation of what is moral forbids you from helping them?

Don't make excuses for yourself. If you are going to devote your career to medicine, do it with conviction to be the best doctor that you can be for yourself and for others. Otherwise, I would reevaluate.
 
I think physicians who are religious and practice medicine are hypocrites. Medicine is ultimately based on biology and related discipline. Apparently, they want to believe every single scientific discovery that these sciences have offered us, but when it comes to believing the ultimate founding principle which all these sciences are based off of, they don't want to go there. This is my opinion. And I have right to free speech! :laugh:

I would say a large portion of scientists I've met have been religious, and I live in a really liberal area. Try seeing how many atheist doctors you find in the south. But what do they know, they're not premeds right?
 
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I think you need to learn more about your religion. When practicing medicine as a Muslim, it's okay to touch people of the opposite sex. This is why Muslim countries have doctors treating both sexes.

I have four Muslims in my med school class. All are currently fasting. None have asked for accommodations to treat only one sex. It's simply impossible to train to be a physician in the U.S. without treating both sexes. There's just too much you need to know.
 
I think you need to learn more about your religion. When practicing medicine as a Muslim, it's okay to touch people of the opposite sex. This is why Muslim countries have doctors treating both sexes.

I have four Muslims in my med school class. All are currently fasting. None have asked for accommodations to treat only one sex. It's simply impossible to train to be a physician in the U.S. without treating both sexes. There's just too much you need to know.

👍

OP, why are you even taking our word for it? Go look through the Quran and the early Hadiths and see to what extent the segregation of women/men present in Wahhabism today was present when Islam first started.
 
The MOST conservative Muslim groups certainly would not allow this.

Of course they would. When it comes to life and death, the rules change, even in the Muslim world. You have to understand that most Muslim people happen to come from the Middle East, where a premium is placed on their children going to medical school. There is nothing in medical education -- including the treating of both sexes -- that compromises their religious beliefs. It's encouraged, not criticized.
 
In Islam, necessity permits the impermissible. The impermissible in this case is touching the opposite gender (this is in the context of lustful/sexual contact by the way) and the necessity is to preserve life (health care). One of the core principles in Islamic legal methodology is to preserve life. So it isn't a matter of "leeway" it is firmly established that physical interaction with the opposite gender is necessary in medical practice.

Not to mention, a huge chunk of practicing American physicians are Muslim.

Absolutely correct!
 
I think physicians who are religious and practice medicine are hypocrites. Medicine is ultimately based on biology and related discipline. Apparently, they want to believe every single scientific discovery that these sciences have offered us, but when it comes to believing the ultimate founding principle which all these sciences are based off of, they don't want to go there. This is my opinion. And I have right to free speech! :laugh:


This is an unfair generalization of religion. Not all religion is against science, and to say so is no different than a religious person proclaiming scientific discovery as heresy.






"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind."
-Albert Einstein
 
👍. As someone that was born in the Middle East (Dubai, UAE) and grew up in the Middle East (Sana'a, Yemen), the OP seems to not be all the knowledgeable about Islam. Touching members of the opposite sex with intent to treat is ok per all but the very strictest interpretations of Islamic law.

If you go by the strictest interpretations (the Saudi version that where **** is made up that isn't in the Quran) then you cannot become a doctor in the US.

👍

OP, why are you even taking our word for it? Go look through the Quran and the early Hadiths and see to what extent the segregation of women/men present in Wahhabism today was present when Islam first started.
 
You can still believe in god but somewhere in your belief you absolutely have to acknowledge "you know what". Otherwise, when your mother is dying go pray instead of taking her to the hospital. I am not going to change my opinion.

What are you talking about? Why would I pray instead of going to a hospital?
 
I think physicians who are religious and practice medicine are hypocrites. Medicine is ultimately based on biology and related discipline. Apparently, they want to believe every single scientific discovery that these sciences have offered us, but when it comes to believing the ultimate founding principle which all these sciences are based off of, they don't want to go there. This is my opinion. And I have right to free speech! :laugh:

Why must you inject unneeded conflict? If someone wants to believe in something that is their choice and it is something that should be respected. It's teenagers like you who make people think atheists and non-religious persons are devoid of any respect and moral fiber.
 
You can still believe in god but somewhere in your belief you absolutely have to acknowledge "you know what". Otherwise, when your mother is dying, go pray instead of taking her to the hospital. I am not going to change my opinion. Anyways, I really don't want to start another debate on this thread. so ignore everything I said

That is your interpretation of religion. Please don't act like your idea of religion is based off of every other religious persons interpretation. Sure there are some really fanatic people, but most people are moderates who can blend today and yesterday and do fine in life.
 
What are you talking about? Why would I pray instead of going to a hospital?

Because in his mind its either his belief ( that the religious are all fundamentalists) or you are a religious hypocrite. It's a real nice false dilemma.
Honestly this guy is a bother he closed his eyes and ears and believes his world view is perfect and thus shouldn't change.
 
I believe this is simply a troll thread, and it makes Islam look bad and unfair. Muslims who believe that a doctor cannot treat the opposite sex don't understand their own religion and has fallen to the world of traditional/cultural teachings rather than religious teachings.

Most of the doctors that I know and have worked with are extremely bright and follow their religion. To think that religion and science are mutually exclusive is completely asinine.
 
I don't know want the hell the OP is talking about. I have lived in various Muslim countries and this has never been an issue unless the patients doesn't want to see an opposite sex doctor.

I say TROLL to this thread.
 
what a joke ...

Either get over it, or get out of medicine. I really can't think of any careers where you won't at least have to shake hands with women though, so I suggest you get over it.

Ah religion. Is there nothing that you won't slide your backward ass into?

so your religion basically has a cooties policy?

psh i say. PSH! i'm gonna go draw muhammad now. UNCENSORED!! :meanie:

At first, I was offended by a lack of tact. But then I was all like: OP's trollin. Above comments still disappoint me
 
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