Muslims: Specialties that allow you to pray 5x/day?

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Yadster101

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So Im a Muslim and I pray 5 times a day. The prayers move around from month to month but typically from like 7am-7pm 3 prayers will come up. For example the first must be prayed from between 11:30am-2pm, the second from 2pm-4:30pm, and the third from 4:30pm-6:00pm. Each prayer should take like 5mins but can be finished in as little as 2-3mins.

So does needing to take a 3 min break from 11am-2pm (or any of the other prayers) bar me from some specialties in medicine? I know a lot of Muslim doctors, in different fields, that are able to keep up with their prayers. But Im curious to know what you guys think.
 
No one minds inf you go to a call room to pray, unless you ask to scrub out and back in to the or.
 
I used to pray once a night. Once I quit that ****, I felt like my schedule opened up dramatically for some reason.
 
Help out the OP or don't bother posting guys, be nice.

I don't have any first hand experience, but as you already mentioned, I've known and met plenty of practicing Muslim doctors and med students, so I really don't think it would be an issue in most specialties. A third year I know, is really strict about keeping up with his prayers (not sure how he's handling it now with his heavier rotations) but he seems open to a lot of specialties despite it.

Also, once you're more established and been working a while, as long as it's not a super intense specialty, you can probably control your schedule better to allow for time to go pray.

-2 cents (from someone who has no personal experience, but knows some people. So take it for what it's worth)
 
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i'm more interested in what happens if you skip a prayer
will you have to drop everything and pray
 
I think any field is ultimately compatible. Training is where you may have trouble since you don't set your schedule and have less control overall. If you are ok with occasionally being a bit late or missing some prayers, then any field will be fine. If not, I would steer away from surgical fields mainly since OR time is the hardest time to step away from and you would have some cases that completely ran over your prayer times.

Once you're an attending you can exert more control over your own scheduling, booking cases, etc.
 
Yadster101 said:
So Im a Muslim and I pray 5 times a day. The prayers move around from month to month but typically from like 7am-7pm 3 prayers will come up. For example the first must be prayed from between 11:30am-2pm, the second from 2pm-4:30pm, and the third from 4:30pm-6:00pm. Each prayer should take like 5mins but can be finished in as little as 2-3mins.

So does needing to take a 3 min break from 11am-2pm (or any of the other prayers) bar me from some specialties in medicine? I know a lot of Muslim doctors, in different fields, that are able to keep up with their prayers. But Im curious to know what you guys think.
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From your post, it looks like you have a 2 1/2 hr period to pray at each interval time. From this, I would surmise that any specialty that does procedures that last >4 hrs would not be viable. Although, in theory you have a 5 hour time window, over the long term (x years of residency) you are bound to have many surgeries that do not get scheduled in your favor. Additionally, specialties that tend to have longer surgery times on average, when complications arise they are more likely to go over the 5 hr threshold. Having said that, depending on how devout you are and your ability to miss a prayer here or there, some of these longer surgery time specialties may still be viable.

Obviously it's not an issue that you are Muslim, it just comes down to the pragmatic issue of the high frequency and timing of the prayers have a high tendency to interrupt daily workflow in these specific specialties.

tl;dr - Look for specialties that only do procedures <3-4 hrs or do not do procedures.

*edited based on new input from @SouthernSurgeon and I realized I don't know how to do simple math. Go me.
 
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slopes23 said:
From your post, it looks like you have a 1 1/2 hr period to pray at each interval time. From this, I would surmise that any specialty that does procedures that last >1hr would not be viable. You would be hard pressed to find any residency position that would be okay with their resident scrubbing out and back in 3 times a day every day in the middle of surgeries. Also, an additional barrier to entry early on this necessity would likely lead to bad evals when you do your clerkships through these same specialties in 3rd year.

Obviously it's not an issue that you are Muslim, it just comes down to the pragmatic issue of the high frequency and timing of the prayers have a high tendency to interrupt daily workflow in these specific specialties.

tl;dr - Look for specialties that only do procedures <1 hr or do not do procedures.
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That's not correct. If prayer (a) has to be done between 11:30-2:00 pm and prayer (b) between 2:00pm-4:30pm, and the prayers only take a couple of minutes - then your window would be from prayer (a) to (b) could be as long as 5 hours (11:30 for prayer a, 4:30 for prayer b). Not 1 hour. And the bigger point is there is a wide time period you can do it in so there is significant flexibility.

I know a surgical subspecialty resident who is a devout muslim. We frequently see him go to the call room to pray.
 
SouthernSurgeon said:
That's not correct. If prayer (a) has to be done between 11:30-2:00 pm and prayer (b) between 2:00pm-4:30pm, and the prayers only take a couple of minutes - then your window would be from prayer (a) to (b) could be as long as 5 hours (11:30 for prayer a, 4:30 for prayer b). Not 1 hour. And the bigger point is there is a wide time period you can do it in so there is significant flexibility.

I know a surgical subspecialty resident who is a devout muslim. We frequently see him go to the call room to pray.
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I see where you are coming from, and with that thought process in mind I would certainly agree that it would be >1 hr (I will edit my post to reflect this, not to mention I meant to say 2 1/2 hour intervals not 1 1/2) but I don't imagine 4-5 hr procedures often would be sustainable because as a resident the scheduling may not consistently work in his favor depending on his lack of ability to be flexible/miss a prayer here or there.

I suppose determining the time frame of the procedures in theory is more difficult then the OP just going through the clerkship and getting a proper feel for the specialty and associated time frames. If he is asking this question to examine, preliminarily, what areas of research he may like to get involved in (so he doesnt go off and do neurosurgery research just to realize he wont be matching for it) then perhaps we could agree that, to be safe, specialties that require surgery times < than 3-4 hours would be ideal?
 
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touchpause13 said:
Nope
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Read works from the most recognisable agnostics or atheist in literature/philosophy, being atheist puts strain in your ethics and conduct, you need to have a strong personality and intelect to cope with the questions that arise with the atheist hypothesis. Of course it is easier to blindlessly follow a religion or blindlessly follow the neo wave of atheism that is summed by: (nah bro how could jesus walk over water, of course god doesnt exist). Superficial atheism is rampant in our youth culture. It goes in hand with the "invencible or anything is possible" feeling that characterizes teenager/young adult phase.
Many of them turn into apologised christians or whatever is their original cultural environment is by mid age, when true death ackowledgment occurs.
 
Kahreek said:
Read works from the most recognisable agnostics or atheist in literature/philosophy, being atheist puts strain in your ethics and conduct, you need to have a strong personality and intelect to cope with the questions that arise with the atheist hypothesis. Of course it is easier to blindlessly follow a religion or blindlessly follow the neo wave of atheism that is summed by: (nah bro how could jesus walk over water, of course god doesnt exist). Superficial atheism is rampant in our youth culture. It goes in hand with the superpower anything is possible feeling that every teenager has.
Many of them turn into apologised christians or whatever is their original cultural environment is by mid age, when true death ackowledgment arises.
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I don't really see how it puts a strain on your ethics or conduct any more than religion does. I had a lot of ethical objections to religion to begin with so I feel less of a strain now to be honest (less like I have to justify an organization that I didn't particularly believe in)

I agree it's easier to blindly follow any doctrine without thinking critically about it. Interestingly most atheists I know were raised in some sort of faith and came to agnostism or atheism after a lot of consideration. I've also seen people realizing their own morality turning more to faith or less to faith, it really depends on the individual. I think that turning to religion while middle age comes from a responsibility a lot of people feel to raise their kids with some sort of faith tradition, or pressure for family. :shrug:

Whatever your faith or nonbelief or whatever is I think questioning is a good thing.
 
SouthernSurgeon said:
That's not correct. If prayer (a) has to be done between 11:30-2:00 pm and prayer (b) between 2:00pm-4:30pm, and the prayers only take a couple of minutes - then your window would be from prayer (a) to (b) could be as long as 5 hours (11:30 for prayer a, 4:30 for prayer b). Not 1 hour. And the bigger point is there is a wide time period you can do it in so there is significant flexibility.

I know a surgical subspecialty resident who is a devout muslim. We frequently see him go to the call room to pray.
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I too know a devout Muslim surgical resident at one of our neighboring institutions. They find a way to make it work.
 
Kahreek said:
I can't see how being an atheist is easier "on the soul".
In topic: i think the op should chose surgery, he will have many urges to pray throughout the day.
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Well I do see your point there because I don't really believe in the concept of the soul. But if you don't believe in God, forcing yourself to go to church probably isn't the greatest for your mental health
 
touchpause13 said:
Well I do see your point there because I don't really believe in the concept of the soul. But if you don't believe in God, forcing yourself to go to church probably isn't the greatest for your mental health
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I take that back because it's an oversimplification.

I don't believe in "the soul" as in the part of you that exists after you die. I do believe "the soul" as in the core part of you as a human being
 
I think there is nothing to worried about you can pray 5 times and its kind off Time-out during the learning.
 
So many arrogant people on sdn are lost. If you want to be atheist good for you but don't drag us who believe in God in the mud and think we are dumb. The OP is asking a question and if you have nothing relevant to say then don't comment.
 
Kahreek said:
Read works from the most recognisable agnostics or atheist in literature/philosophy, being atheist puts strain in your ethics and conduct, you need to have a strong personality and intelect to cope with the questions that arise with the atheist hypothesis. Of course it is easier to blindlessly follow a religion or blindlessly follow the neo wave of atheism that is summed by: (nah bro how could jesus walk over water, of course god doesnt exist). Superficial atheism is rampant in our youth culture. It goes in hand with the "invencible or anything is possible" feeling that characterizes teenager/young adult phase.
Many of them turn into apologised christians or whatever is their original cultural environment is by mid age, when true death ackowledgment occurs.
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:spam::spam::spam::spam::spam::spam::spam:
 
touchpause13 said:
Well I do see your point there because I don't really believe in the concept of the soul. But if you don't believe in God, forcing yourself to go to church probably isn't the greatest for your mental health
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I actually know someone who was essentially atheist before I took him to church one day. He is now very religious and attends church every Sunday.
 
RJGOP said:
Why are there so many atheist doctors? I've met way more atheist doctors/ med students than religious one or even just ones who believe in God. As a fairly religious Christian, people think I'm the weird one.
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Rigorous intellectualism, particularly in the sciences, often but not always doesn't go along strongly with religion. Painting with broad strokes, obviously, but I'm sure that's part of it. When you start dealing with patients you also start getting a better look at the human condition and what's actually going on in that crazy, crazy world. If you haven't had that experience before, I can imagine it would cause many to question their beliefs, particularly those that profess faith in an all-knowing, benevolent creator.

Don't mean to turn this into a religion vs. atheism thread, but that's my armchair analysis.
 
RJGOP said:
Why are there so many atheist doctors? I've met way more atheist doctors/ med students than religious one or even just ones who believe in God. As a fairly religious Christian, people think I'm the weird one.
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As a religious Hindu, people think the same of me. It's mostly like "just eat cow already, who cares" um no.
 
NickNaylor said:
Rigorous intellectualism, particularly in the sciences, often but not always doesn't go along strongly with religion. Painting with broad strokes, obviously, but I'm sure that's part of it. When you start dealing with patients you also start getting a better look at the human condition and what's actually going on in that crazy, crazy world. If you haven't had that experience before, I can imagine it would cause many to question their beliefs, particularly those that profess faith in an all-knowing, benevolent creator.

Don't mean to turn this into a religion vs. atheism thread, but that's my armchair analysis.
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Wouldn't you think though that a belief in God would be sparked or just reinforced by means of exposure to the human body, and how we can repair it? It's one of the most remarkable things in the world, and I just have a hard time believing a God wasn't involved in its creation.
 
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RJGOP said:
Wouldn't you think though that a belief in God would be sparked or just reinforced by means of exposure to the human body, and how we can repair it. It's one off he most remarkable things in the world, and I just have a hard time believing a God wasn't involved in its creation.
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Some people interpret it that way, sure. And it's that kind of person that ends up in academia, for example, but is steadfastly religious.

I think everyone to some degree has that kind of wonder. I know I do. But that doesn't mean that they have to ascribe it spiritual meaning.
 
RJGOP said:
Why are there so many atheist doctors? I've met way more atheist doctors/ med students than religious one or even just ones who believe in God. As a fairly religious Christian, people think I'm the weird one.
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Short answer, arrogance. Religion requires a lot of humility, something we physicians frequently lack.
 
Sirach38 said:
Short answer, arrogance. Religion requires a lot of humility, something we physicians frequently lack.
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That reminds me of the stories I've heard about CT surgeons calling themselves God. (Which is weird because they're probably atheist, as religious people wouldn't equate themselves with God). I definitely agree that some of it is arrogance. It just amazes me though how many of my classmates are atheists. What makes me mad is how they talk down on religious people like we are evil or stupid.
 
RJGOP said:
That reminds me of the stories I've heard about CT surgeons calling themselves God. (Which is weird because they're probably atheist, as religious people wouldn't equate themselves with God). I definitely agree that some of it is arrogance. It just amazes me though how many of my classmates are atheists. What makes me mad is how they talk down on religious people like we are evil or stupid.
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Don't let it get to you man. Keep your faith strong and don't mind what anyone says. Faith is a good thing from an emotional, psychological, and health perspective. You're faith is a treasure so hold on to it. You are blessed to have it as many who wish they had one don't.
 
Sirach38 said:
Don't let it get to you man. Keep your faith strong and don't mind what anyone says. Faith is a good thing from an emotional, psychological, and health perspective. You're faith is a treasure so hold on to it. You are blessed to have it as many who wish they had one don't.
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Yup. Thanks man. I definitely don't let what they say get to me, and I'm not afraid to show my faith to anyone. If they've got a problem with it, that's their fault, not mine.
 
I am from Africa and I have seen some spirits and gods strike people to death and sickness. I have seen these and if there are some smaller gods, then I believe in a higher GOD who protects me. Education can't take my faith from me because I feel presence of God in my life. Atheists I respect y'all and you too can believe in whatever you want.
 
I honestly don't have any problems with religious people (and I'm a big believer in God and I love theology), but religion tends to make some people close minded. Those who go to the extremes (sometimes outside of the religion they ascribe to) and take some parts of scripture literally kind of scare me. They just seem so opposed to free thought or questioning anything.
 
While these discussions on religion are always interesting, please take the discussion back to the OPs question.

@yadster. I'm not very familiar with the specifics of the prayer requirements.

What are the consequences of missing a prayer?

Are there exceptions for certain circumstances such as a life or death emergency where it would be ok to miss one?

I know in some other religions there are exceptions to certain requirements under special circumstances.

Maybe that makes a difference. I find it hard to believe that a religion would frown on someone missing a prayer if they were saving someone's life in the OR...
 
RJGOP said:
Why are there so many atheist doctors? I've met way more atheist doctors/ med students than religious one or even just ones who believe in God. As a fairly religious Christian, people think I'm the weird one.
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It's not very hard to understand... Medicine is mostly evidence based or at least it tries to be. Religion is a faith. Theres no evidence. How many recorded sightings of god have you seen? And it's impossible to do a study on existence of god.

RJGOP said:
Wouldn't you think though that a belief in God would be sparked or just reinforced by means of exposure to the human body, and how we can repair it? It's one of the most remarkable things in the world, and I just have a hard time believing a God wasn't involved in its creation.
Click to expand...

Absolutely not. this comes from ignorance. theres absolutely no reason why that leads to God.. if you think about, the scientific method has only existed for few hundred or few thousand years depending on how you define it and today we have technology that in many levels work better than the human body. If you think god is almighty and so amazing, i'm sure God couldve easily came up with a better creation than humans.....

However your statement is a common one and i think that is because people have difficulty comprehending how much time has passed since the beginning of earth. We think medical training is long and thats only 10 years. Imagine that with 8 more zeros. People have difficulty comprehending that and the endless possibilities that can happen within that time (eg for evolution to take place). People are also bad at viewing things from perspectives. 4.5 billion years sounds like a long time, but dont forget that N isnt 1 in this case. Time is passing everywhere in the UNIVERSE, on billions and billions of planets. It's not hard to imagine that thru evolution, a creature as simple as human was created. Don't forget, we think things we dont understand is complex. Wait 1000 yrs later, when we think the human body is a joke, when we will be able to download our brain onto a computer. will we still think God created humans?? There is a clear trend here. As science advances and as we understand more and more, atheism increases and religion decreases. Just 400 years ago, i would say pretty much the entire population on earth were religious. Why? Because they didn't understand much so everything seemed complicated. Even the orbits of the planets seemed complicated. Fast forward 400 years... with more understanding, do we still think the orbits are complicated? Do we still think God put Earth in the middle of the universe? No. In fact many of us may think its silly to even begin to believe something like that, yet that's what happened in the past. 1000 years into the future, those ppl will laugh at us for thinking that God created humans
 
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RJGOP said:
I actually know someone who was essentially atheist before I took him to church one day. He is now very religious and attends church every Sunday.
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Good for him. You gotta do what's in your heart
 
You can do the prayers on the fly in all but epically long procedural fields and even then it's probably doable. It would seem unreasonable to not have a contingency in the Quran for the service to the lives of others for not saying the prayer this one time or that....would it not? Or is that a ridiculous and godless assumption.

Just curious...but do you need the prayer mat and everything or can you just face Mecca and say the prayers. Finding a place to knee and supplicate? (Whatever the bowing maneuver is called) might be more difficult, if you're scrubbed in or otherwise indisposed to having your own space.
 
anbuitachi said:
It's not very hard to understand... Medicine is mostly evidence based or at least it tries to be. Religion is a faith. Theres no evidence. How many recorded sightings of god have you seen? And it's impossible to do a study on existence of god.



Absolutely not. this comes from ignorance. theres absolutely no reason why that leads to God.. if you think about, the scientific method has only existed for few hundred or few thousand years depending on how you define it and today we have technology that in many levels work better than the human body. If you think god is almighty and so amazing, i'm sure God couldve easily came up with a better creation than humans.....

However your statement is a common one and i think that is because people have difficulty comprehending how much time has passed since the beginning of earth. We think medical training is long and thats only 10 years. Imagine that with 8 more zeros. People have difficulty comprehending that and the endless possibilities that can happen within that time (eg for evolution to take place). People are also bad at viewing things from perspectives. 4.5 billion years sounds like a long time, but dont forget that N isnt 1 in this case. Time is passing everywhere in the UNIVERSE, on billions and billions of planets. It's not hard to imagine that thru evolution, a creature as simple as human was created. Don't forget, we think things we don't understand is complex. Wait 1000 yrs later, when we think the human body is a joke, when we will be able to download our brain onto a computer. will we still think God created humans?? There is a clear trend here. As science advances and as we understand more and more, atheism increases and religion decreases. Just 400 years ago, i would say pretty much the entire population on earth were religious. Why? Because they didn't understand much so everything seemed complicated. Even the orbits of the planets seemed complicated. Fast forward 400 years... with more understanding, do we still think the orbits are complicated? Do we still think God put Earth in the middle of the universe? No. In fact many of us may think its silly to even begin to believe something like that, yet that's what happened in the past. 1000 years into the future, those ppl will laugh at us for thinking that God created humans
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In most ways we cannot create a bio-mechanical human that works better than the human body as whole does now. You feel that way because you can repair what you build and call it better because its faster (sort of), but one of the biggest hurdles we have not been able to overcome is self-healing. In theory we know with nano technology we can create some self-healing objects sure, but in no way are we even close to being able to create a being that is improved and can heal itself back to original form when damaged. That's one.

On the other hand, your argument is faulted by assuming that immortality is a good thing, or being able to live hundreds of years. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But I think it's safe to assume you as a medical student (however old you actually are) do not have anywhere near the knowledge, experience, and more importantly wisdom to know how long is the right amount of time to live. A finite life is what makes special things special, and it's gives a sense of urgency to beings, not to mention it helps solve the issue of population capacity of the world. Creating a being that can live longer but does not have the technology in place to create a sustainable environment for a higher population density seems problematic long term. OTOH as technology improves over all, we have learned to lessen our ecological footprint while increasing our average lifespan allowing for higher population capacities overall. These are just a few of the many varied aspects one must consider. Perhaps God knew that one day we would learn how increase our well being. There is inherent wisdom gained by solving problems like how to increase one's life span vs just creating the ultimate long lasting creature. Is a miracle God giving the answers to a test to a student who didn't study? Or is the miracle giving that student the perseverance, motivation, and passion to overcome distraction or temptation so he/she can succeed.

Personally, I am not super religious in the absolute sense of the word, but I believe in God and the healthy benefit of believing in something greater than yourself. Personally I see science as a tool for religion. I agree that unfortunately it creates many close minded people. I also agree with a previous poster that it is good to question things. However, in an objective line of questioning, one should not only question if science disproves religion, but if it can also provide support for its pillars. It is very much a matter of interpretation and personal choice.
 
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slopes23 said:
In most ways we cannot create a bio-mechanical human that works better than the human body as whole does now. You feel that way because you can repair what you build and call it better because its faster (sort of), but one of the biggest hurdles we have not been able to overcome is self-healing. In theory we know with nano technology we can create some self-healing objects sure, but in no way are we even close to being able to create a being that is improved and can heal itself back to original form when damaged. That's one.

On the other hand, your argument is faulted by assuming that immortality is a good thing, or being able to live hundreds of years. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But I think it's safe to assume you as a medical student (however old you actually are) do not have anywhere near the knowledge, experience, and more importantly wisdom to know how long is the right amount of time to live. A finite life is what makes special things special, and it's gives a sense of urgency to beings, not to mention it helps solve some of the population capacity's of the world. These are just a few of the many varied aspects one must consider. Perhaps God knew that one day we would learn how increase our well being. There is inherent wisdom gained by solving problems like how to increase one's life span vs just creating the ultimate long lasting creature. Is a miracle asking god to give you the lottery numbers? Or is a miracle giving a single mother the wisdom, strength, and love to raise 2 kids in the ghetto, keeping them out of trouble and becoming successful members of society out of no opportunity and poor circumstance.

Personally, I am not super religious in the absolute sense of the word, but I believe in God and the healthy benefit of believing in something greater than yourself. Personally I see science as a tool for religion. I agree that unfortunately it creates many close minded people. I also agree with a previous poster that it is good to question things. However, in an objective line of questioning, one should not only question if science disproves religion, but if it can also provide support for its pillars. It is very much a matter of interpretation and personal choice.
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1) I didn't say everything we create is better. lets be serious here, we've only started inventing not long ago.. and we do have the technology to do 'self healing' to some degree. but i can think of many things the human body can do better than our creations so far, but that's not the point that I was trying to make..

2) you misunderstood what i meant in immortality. by a lot actually. actually i'm not even sure where immortality came from lol. i was referring to statistics/probability over time. nothing to do with immortality at all..

3) I am not against religion. There are many benefits to being religious. I also think people can go practice whatever they want. However I do have a problem with it if that religion affects me in some negative way. One example is religions affect on stem cell research. i personally believe religion has slowed down this area , which over time could mean many lives not saved including many atheists.
 
anbuitachi said:
1) I didn't say everything we create is better. lets be serious here, we've only started inventing not long ago.. and we do have the technology to do 'self healing' to some degree. but i can think of many things the human body can do better than our creations so far, but that's not the point that I was trying to make..

2) you misunderstood what i meant in immortality. by a lot actually. actually i'm not even sure where immortality came from lol. i was referring to statistics/probability over time. nothing to do with immortality at all..

3) I am not against religion. There are many benefits to being religious. I also think people can go practice whatever they want. However I do have a problem with it if that religion affects me in some negative way. One example is religions affect on stem cell research. i personally believe religion has slowed down this area , which over time could mean many lives not saved including many atheists.
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If you werent referring to immortality or increased lifespan, then please expand on how you meant "i'm sure God couldve easily came up with a better creation than humans....."

I will agree on your last point though. Personally, I am also for stem cell research. And I do not believe my beliefs or vice versa should dictate or affect mine. I feel very strongly about that.
 
slopes23 said:
If you werent referring to immortality or increased lifespan, then please expand on how you meant "i'm sure God couldve easily came up with a better creation than humans....."

I will agree on your last point though. Personally, I am also for stem cell research. And I do not believe my beliefs or vice versa should dictate or affect mine. I feel very strongly about that.
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I was referring to how some people have a hard time believing God doesn't exist because they can't imagine something as complicated as humans came to be thru evolution. I meant if these people believe God to be an almighty being who can just create creatures at will, God could have easily created something superior to humans, so why didn't he? [why can't we swim or fly? etc]
(it wasn't really to prove a point, i just said it to provide another thought on that topic)
 
I believe we can swim? You must mean indefinitely? And it's a fact that super man can fly. What boggles everyone is how he is able to moderate his speed while flying.

I recognize that it was not perhaps your main argument, never the less, I would imagine it's the arrogance of human nature to assume we should be able to naturally do everything. Birds can fly, fish can swim indefinitely, and we walk/run. For the same reason most people agree having one man with absolute power is a bad idea, maybe God thought it was not in our best interest to just hand us everything. Instead he gave us wisdom, curiosity, bravery, and intelligence so that we can bring ourselves to fly, and swim indefinitely.

Perspective my friend.

edit: Let it be known to the Kings & Queens of the network of student doctors who humbly call themselves moderators, the only reason I feed/fed into this topic derailment was after OP's question received what appeared to be a reasonable amount of viable responses answering their question and without any further probing from OP, it seemed harmless in contributing non-combatively.

For the amount of charged statements both for and against religion, I think overall this whole conversation was fairly benign in the bashing/irrational category. Good job guys. We aren't in Pre-Allo anymore... Wahoo!
 
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