My chances of matching

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stoproom

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This is the story... I can never finish standardized tests on time and end up doing badly on them. I didn't have any difficulties in my first two years of med school but have failed step 1 on first attempt and got a 215 on the second attempt. On my clinical rotations we have to get a certain number on the NBME in order to pass the course and I failed two of my nbme's. I retook them and passed and passed the overall rotation but the fact that I failed the test will show up on my mpse probably. My question is do I even have a chance at surgery. I don't care what program I go to or how low tier it is but will I even have a chance at those programs. My second choice would be internal medicine but I would really prefer to do surgery. Does anyone know of anybody in the same situation or advice.
 
This is the story... I can never finish standardized tests on time and end up doing badly on them. I didn't have any difficulties in my first two years of med school but have failed step 1 on first attempt and got a 215 on the second attempt. On my clinical rotations we have to get a certain number on the NBME in order to pass the course and I failed two of my nbme's. I retook them and passed and passed the overall rotation but the fact that I failed the test will show up on my mpse probably. My question is do I even have a chance at surgery. I don't care what program I go to or how low tier it is but will I even have a chance at those programs. My second choice would be internal medicine but I would really prefer to do surgery. Does anyone know of anybody in the same situation or advice.

To be an excellent surgeon you have to have shown evidence of having mastered medicine, i.e. have "good fundamentals" like good board scores. Now, I know many students who had just "average" board scores, i.e. who never failed any of the licensing examinations and they were still worried about matching in surgery and many did not.

Realize that most entering third years in your shoes would go gung-ho on clinicals and try to honor them to "redeem" themselves . . . apparently however you failed two shelf exams and only got pass in most clerkships I am guessing. So you haven't show that you can do excellent work yet, just that you can scrap by and pass. I don't see surgery in your future as it has, sadly for you, become very competitive with the 80-hr work rule attracting a lot of higher quality candidates each year. Maybe if you got honors in the surgery clerkship you could possibly apply to surgery residencies with a better chance, but absent that I would say you chances are very slim.

If you only got a pass in surgery then I would consider applying to other specialties such as family practice which has some surgical procedures. A LOT of brainiacs go into internal medicine and you would most likely be at a lower-tier place for internal medicine which if it isn't your first choice might be painful, i.e. there is a big difference between being in the OR each day and doing endless rounds in internal medicine.

I would apply to a large number of family practice residencies in your shoes as FP's can do a lot of outpatient procedures, . . . Most people I have met who were successful with surgery were gung-ho about surgery and did what was necessary to secure a surgical residency, i.e. get excellent board scores and great evaluations/honors on the surgery rotation, I haven't seen many surgery residency applicants who talked about a "second choice" as most wouldn't be happy not doing surgery. I.e. if you really wanted surgery you would be planning to do a surgery preliminary year if you don't get a categorical surgery spot, instead you are talking about internal medicine residency and asking if it is time to think about things other than surgery . . .

Of course, I would see if WingedScapula has any advice as she is a surgeon at a surgical residency program and can give advice about how competitive it is these days and what to do to "redeem" yourself . . .
 
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This is the story... I can never finish standardized tests on time and end up doing badly on them. I didn't have any difficulties in my first two years of med school but have failed step 1 on first attempt and got a 215 on the second attempt. On my clinical rotations we have to get a certain number on the NBME in order to pass the course and I failed two of my nbme's. I retook them and passed and passed the overall rotation but the fact that I failed the test will show up on my mpse probably. My question is do I even have a chance at surgery. I don't care what program I go to or how low tier it is but will I even have a chance at those programs. My second choice would be internal medicine but I would really really prefer to do surgery. Does anyone know of anybody in the same situation or advice.
 
This is a multiple post as you already posted this in the ERAS section. There isn't much advice to give as you are already basically done with medical school except for fourth year electives. You'll probably apply for a surgical residency and then you'll have to see what happens, i.e. if you get any interviews. SDN can't be your crystal ball. No matter what anyone says about your chances for getting interviews the work you have or haven't done has already sealed your fate.

I would guess that failing Step 1 and failing shelf exams is not the pathway to being an excellent surgeon which is what ALL surgery programs want to produce. The big question is whether you failed the surgery shelf, and if not then you better have honored surgery, otherwise I would say you have no realistic chance for becoming a surgeon.

Surgery residents work very hard, and failing Step 1 and shelf exams is not a great way to say that you are a hard worker. Even a good proportion of Internal Medicine residency program directors would have a problem with failing Step 1 and shelf exams. You have to admit to yourself that you may possibly have a huge knowledge deficit which would hinder your ability to be a good surgery resident. No program director wants to take on a resident who may fail the ABSITE or whatever inservice exams there are . . . it might mean losing a surgery resident or having one that can't be promoted on to the next level.

I wouldn't want a surgeon taking care of me whom failed Step 1 and failed multiple shelf examinations.
 
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My quick advice (as I have a case starting soon):

1) your surgery faculty can guide you to programs at which you might be competitive

2) you will never know if you could have matched unless you try; you may fail, but its probably worse not trying and always wondering what if

3) failing exams is not going to be impressive; what else do you have on your application that will make programs stand up and take notice? You will fail to pass the filter at many which use Step 1 scores or attempts to weed out applicants.

4) apply widely, geographically and type

5) consider whether you would accept a Prelim position, make a Plan B if you don't match (how many years will you try?)
 
I am an internist, recently finished residency.
You NEED to talk to one of the surgical faculty at your institution, to see whether the surgery dept. will support your application. If you did well on your surgery rotation and you have a couple of surgeons who like you and will write you good letters of recommendation, the perhaps you would have a chance. I don't think the 215 USMLE score by itself would keep you out of general surgery...for the pickier surgical subspecialties I would think it could hurt you.

A prelim, 1 year surgery position would be easier to get than a regular position, but then realize that you could be "trapped" with nowhere to go (in terms of surgery residency) after that one year is up. However, if you rocked then you might get to stay and/or transfer to another program. Just be aware that is a hard road. I had a good friend, IMG, who matched into a prelim surg position at a prestigious university program. She was a good resident and worked hard, but still ended up getting stuck with no upper level surgery position. The programs will tell you that most of their prelims go on to an upper level surgery position somewhere (if not at that institution) but it's really not true for many places.

The failed exams will be a red flag on your application. You can get in to internal medicine anyway, although some programs will filter you out/not invite you to interview because of them. Surgery programs will worry more because they have to give their residents the ABSITE, an in service exam (I think every year?). If someone has trouble passing that, it reflects badly on their program. It's not about you being a bad person or a good person, it's just that they are going to cover their a--. If they have a choice between someone who is good test taker vs. someone who isn't, they most often will take the good test taker.

You need to address your problem with getting done w/standardized tests. I have a tendency to be that way a little also, though I have never failed on and actually get good scores. But I have had problems getting done on time from time to time on these. You can train yourself somewhat to go faster. You NEED to do this for USMLE. Get some sort of computerized practice questions sets, and practice practice practice getting them done in the alloted time.

I basically agree w/winged scapula's response. It is sound. Listen to him.
 
Please don't cross-post the same thread in multiple forums.

Threads merged.
 
O.K. Fine. Winged scapula is a woman.
So am I.
I like women 🙂
sorry if I offended anyone but thought she was a he, for some reason.
 
most people assume people in my subspecialty are male, also

Just for the sake of argument, should I have called winged scapula "It" because I didn't know she was female. There isn't any gender neutral pronoun for a person in English, so one has to pick either "him" or "her". I guess I will start saying "him or her" for all people for whom I don't know the gender...
 
most people assume people in my subspecialty are male, also

Just for the sake of argument, should I have called winged scapula "It" because I didn't know she was female. There isn't any gender neutral pronoun for a person in English, so one has to pick either "him" or "her". I guess I will start saying "him or her" for all people for whom I don't know the gender...

Or you could look at their profile: many people include their gender or at the very least, a picture of themselves. It takes only a few second to click on the User Profile under their name.
 
OP,

Your failed NBME clerkships tests will not likely appear on your deans letter.
Ask the dean or someone in adminstration to know for sure. You will likely just have the "pass" grade. If you simply had to retake a test to pass a clerkship thats different than having to retake the whole clerkship or retake a whole year. Schools want to present their grads in the best light. there is no reason to say he passe dthis clerkship but took teh test twice.
 
Or you could look at their profile: many people include their gender or at the very least, a picture of themselves. It takes only a few second to click on the User Profile under their name.

Or just look at your signature.

The whole "listing your name" bit.

😉
 
Or just look at your signature.

The whole "listing your name" bit.

😉

True, except for:

1) signature only appears on my first post in a thread, so you might have to hunt for it in a long thread

2) Kim is a well known male name in other countries

3) some, presumably not Westerners, don't realize that Kim/Kimberli is (usually) a female name in the US given the number of PMs and emails I got when I used my real name here addressed to "Dear Sir"
 
True, except for:

1) signature only appears on my first post in a thread, so you might have to hunt for it in a long thread

2) Kim is a well known male name in other countries

3) some, presumably not Westerners, don't realize that Kim/Kimberli is (usually) a female name in the US given the number of PMs and emails I got when I used my real name here addressed to "Dear Sir"

Fair points...though while "Kim" is sometimes a male name, isn't "Kimberli/Kimberly" always female?

I may be wrong. 🙂
 
Fair points...though while "Kim" is sometimes a male name, isn't "Kimberli/Kimberly" always female?

I may be wrong. 🙂

No you're right...but given the deluge of PMs and emails I get from people here addressed to "Dear Sir", I'd imagine its not all that well known outside of English speaking Western countries. Not suprising really; I can't tell gender from their names either.:laugh:
 
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