My CNN.com article on resident work hours

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tonyyounmd

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Hi everyone,
Just wanted to post a link to an article I wrote for CNN.com on resident work hours. Medical school and residency is a bear, and the ACGME in 2011 instituted new work hour restrictions on interns. I'd love to hear your thoughts, as training to become doctors is ever-changing.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/26/health/youn-doctors-fall-asleep/index.html?hpt=hp_c2

Best wishes

Whoa, that's you? I read that earlier and almost posted myself. I've read alot of your articles actually.
 
very powerful. thx for writing/sharing! dr. youn, do you think that long hours universal across all surgical training specialties? or just plastics/trauma/etc?
 
Wait why do residents believe reducing work hour limits would impair their education? Most surgeries are done during the day are they not? I would think most of a resident's education would be during the day/early evening when the attending is around to educate them.
 
Oh hey, I read all your CNN articles! I didn't know you were on SDN! 😀
 
Great read.. Keep them coming !
 
Great article doc! I was about to post it to SDN for all to see but it looks like you beat me to it. I'm glad that you've brought this topic to light. When most people think of doctors they tend to focus on only the good aspects of practicing medicine. However nobody really thinks about the negative parts of the job, such as horrible residency hours, or possible malpractice law suits.
 
I am currently chief resident in ENT, and am worried about the work hour restrictions. I thought the 80-hour work week was a great thing, but any more than that is starting to hurt training. I did Q4 30 hour call shifts for 3 years straight and it was extremely painful and I would never go through it again! However, I found the training invaluable.

Right now, our interns come onto PGY2 without taking call overnight by themselves. When I was an intern, I did minor surgical procedures on my own in the ER (hand saw injuries, etc). Now they don't take call! As I enter my last year of training, it hits home more than ever that feeling like a well-prepared surgeon is far more important than having cush hours (although I like those too!)

In the end, the work hours restrictions will continue to tighten. Just make the most of your education to benefit your patients.. and don't always watch the clock.
 
Wait why do residents believe reducing work hour limits would impair their education? Most surgeries are done during the day are they not? I would think most of a resident's education would be during the day/early evening when the attending is around to educate them.

First, if you can only be in the hospital a finite amount of hours, programs have to implement night float and you end up not working daylight hours for up to 12 or so weeks out of the year. Second, when programs are asked to cut down hours, it doesn't come out of the floor work that needs to get done, it comes out of didactics and electives. Third, the interns have the most to learn and spend the fewest hours in the hospital each day. It means it takes more years for them to get to the same experience level. Fourth the number of long cases tou can get into is cut in half when hours are cut in half. In a field where you only get good at things by doing a lot of them, that's disastrous.
 
A couple good comments:
Nobody ever wants a doctor who makes any mistakes about anything ever. They also want cheap doctors. They don't feel the need to listen to their doctors but they want to be able to SUE SUE SUE whenever they feel like it. It's no wonder why doctors are refusing to practice in some states and why there's a constant shortage. IT'S NOT WORTH IT. Maybe when you fools can't get the help you need you'll shut your mouths and show some respect for the people who keep you alive.
Unfortunately, for many surgical programs these hour limits are a sham. Even before the 16-hour shift limit for interns, the ACGME has had an 80 work week limit for all residents in place since 2003. Nevertheless, my surgeon resident fiancee regularly works far over hours and just under-reports. Why? Because she has to. She has to cover her call, she has to take care of her patients, or their health is compromised. That is just how short-staffed and over-committed they (the surgical residents) are. If she reports her hours honestly she is berated by the administration for compromising the program's accreditation status. It is malignant. Instead, she lives in a world where her attending physicians smugly remark how "easy" residents have it now with these duty hour limits (as opposed to the mean old days). In reality, she works just as many inhuman shifts, just as many obscene, dangerous hours, but now lies about it so the program can look compliant. It's insane -- she's had 72 hours of "home call" that turn into 72 hours in house actually operating and caring for patients. She has rotations that end with a 30 hour shift, but then has to report for her new rotation at 6am the next day (her supposed "post call" day where she is suppose to rest for 24 hours) because administration does not factor rotation change into call schedule. This is the tip of the iceberg. The brazen disregard for basic human capacity and patient safety when it comes to scheduling surgical residents is mind-blowing.
In the vein of that second one, I'm curious, if a residency program is investigated or something by the ACGME for underrreporting resident work hours, are residents at risk? Is a resident endangering his/her career by lying to the ACGME?
 
Yes, lying to acgme is always a risk, and not advised by any program I know of. I think most programs now try to be compliant as they risk too much otherwise.

However, most residents I know, including myself, have fudged numbers when logging hours. It didn't always happen, but it was too difficult to deal with the consequences of "going over." Most people just want to get their work done, learn a lot, and get out.
 
Yes, lying to acgme is always a risk, and not advised by any program I know of. I think most programs now try to be compliant as they risk too much otherwise.

However, most residents I know, including myself, have fudged numbers when logging hours. It didn't always happen, but it was too difficult to deal with the consequences of "going over." Most people just want to get their work done, learn a lot, and get out.

So where's the line? How do you know when your program actually is malignant in its violation of the work hours and what do you do about it without risking your career?
 
read your article earlier on CNN and was wondering if you were gonna post on sdn... Guess so!
 
Only former premeds would complain about ONLY working 14 hours a day T_T

How can you learn anything when you're that sleep deprived anyway?
 
Is the only way to effectively train doctors is to work them to near death? The obvious solution is to extend residency that routinely works interns to the ground by one year, but I assume there are some serious complications to this or it would have been done already. What is the ideal solution?
 
...
How can you learn anything when you're that sleep deprived anyway?

How can you learn anything while you are home in bed? Tired or not you learn a lot on the long shifts. I've worked both under the 30 hour call system and then the night float system and can assure you you will be more tired under the latter system, learn less, and function less independently by the end of intern year. Sure it sucks but these are tried and true ways to train good physicians. As was said earlier in the thread, the loss of sleep sounds ominous while you are a premed, but the really scary stuff is getting to the other end of residency and realizing how much you still have to learn and how much you wished you had seen more of. in fields that are heavily involved in procedures the only way to get competent is to do more procedures, even if it means sacrificing a few hours of sleep. The ACGME isn't catering to what will train you best any more, it is catering to public perceptions. If you are smart, you will keep your eye on the prize of being a well trained physician and not get hung up on whether your 40 hours a week of sleep comes a little a day or in bigger blocks every other day. You will still be sleep deprived either way, the question is which gives the better training, and I think a lot of us who have lived under two systems now have a very different view than what sounds better as a premed.
 
Someone made a comparison on CNN between physicians who have to operate when they are on call (no matter how tired they are) and our military soldiers (to be specific, the special ops)... Thing is, as a physician, don't you get to dictate when and how long you choose to work? Yes, in some instances you may work over if a particular care/surgery went longer, but you can choose to step away.
As a resident, you don't get that choice, it's show up the next day... regardless of # of hours of sleep you got. I understand we need to train under those conditions, but for 4 years?
 
Is the only way to effectively train doctors is to work them to near death? The obvious solution is to extend residency that routinely works interns to the ground by one year, but I assume there are some serious complications to this or it would have been done already. What is the ideal solution?

A bit melodramatic, no? You aren't ever near death (unless you are talking about your ICU patients). Residents aren't dropping like flies. The schedule is very doable. This is premed unsubstantiated fears and fodder. Please.
 
How can you learn anything while you are home in bed? Tired or not you learn a lot on the long shifts. I've worked both under the 30 hour call system and then the night float system and can assure you you will be more tired under the latter system, learn less, and function less independently by the end of intern year. Sure it sucks but these are tried and true ways to train good physicians. As was said earlier in the thread, the loss of sleep sounds ominous while you are a premed, but the really scary stuff is getting to the other end of residency and realizing how much you still have to learn and how much you wished you had seen more of. in fields that are heavily involved in procedures the only way to get competent is to do more procedures, even if it means sacrificing a few hours of sleep. The ACGME isn't catering to what will train you best any more, it is catering to public perceptions. If you are smart, you will keep your eye on the prize of being a well trained physician and not get hung up on whether your 40 hours a week of sleep comes a little a day or in bigger blocks every other day. You will still be sleep deprived either way, the question is which gives the better training, and I think a lot of us who have lived under two systems now have a very different view than what sounds better as a premed.
Public perceptions or public (patient) safety and resident health?

As stated in the article, sleep deprivation is unhealthy and dangerous, and using a system that fails to address this is stupid. If residents cannot be fully trained using a system that allows them work in a healthy environment, then extend the length of their residency training. Why assume that the system of the past (long work hours and call) is the ideal, even if it has produced competent physicians? The achievement of quality physician education and safe, healthy physician work practices aren't mutually exclusive. Why prioritize learning over the safety of the physician and his/her patients?

I assume I'm going to be presented with a study showing me that the shorter work hour restrictions haven't resulted in a lower rate of medical error or whatever, but that only addresses the impact of overworking physicians on the patients' health; what about the physicians' health? I haven't seen a rebuttal to the accepted notion that sleep deprivation is detrimental to one's immediate and long-term health. Why must this be the price of an adequate training and learning experience? Can't we break out of the closed-minded perspective that anything challenging the old ways is doomed to fail? If those who trained with q2 call and 120 hour weeks have a problem with residents having a better experience in residency than they did because of some sense of pride in the trials and hazing initiations of medicine, then I feel their opinion is shortsighted and lacks a place in modern medicine. If they have concerns about the quality of patient care during residency, it seems apparent to me that this would be very directly improved, or certainly not harmed, by having better rested residents. If they have concerns about the quality of patient care post-residency, then like I said, compensate for the loss of weekly work time by extending the length of training.

I take particular issue with your last sentence. If the current system still results in legitimate sleep deprivation (read: loss of fitness to provide care) then it is not acceptable alternative to the old system. It is an alternative, yes, but not a solution. Complacency about an issue that has been for so long accepted a necessary evil of medical training lends no hand to progress, and holds back those who would advocate concern for everyone involved.
 
A bit melodramatic, no? You aren't ever near death (unless you are talking about your ICU patients). Residents aren't dropping like flies. The schedule is very doable. This is premed unsubstantiated fears and fodder. Please.

You must thrive on abuse.
 
If those who trained with q2 call and 120 hour weeks have a problem with residents having a better experience in residency than they did because of some sense of pride in the trials and hazing initiations of medicine, then I feel their opinion is shortsighted and lacks a place in modern medicine.

This is another thing that concerns me. It seems hazing is quite prevalent especially in the surgical specialties. Almost every doc that I have shadowed warned me about this. Anyway, great article.
 
A bit melodramatic, no? You aren't ever near death (unless you are talking about your ICU patients). Residents aren't dropping like flies. The schedule is very doable. This is premed unsubstantiated fears and fodder. Please.

Oh please. The only one being melodramatic here is you. This is not a fear that I have; I have heard stories of being exhausted as resident and was curious to see what step the system will take on the issue. If that's how everybody is doing it then I'll do the same. The near death part was just a figure of speech to emphasize the point. If you can't figure that much out I seriously have concerns how you made it this far.
 
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Thanks for all your input on this issue. I've always felt that the majority of my real education took place during the day, when I was well-rested an alert. I know other docs, however, who would disagree with this. Many of them have become trauma and general surgeons.
Another factor to consider is the psychological state of the residents. More reasonable work hours may result in a better morale, and maybe, just maybe, less of the old-school, bitter and arrogant doctors of the past.
Thanks again for your replies!
 
Or you could just go into a specialty that doesn't take call.

Glad to be in EM 🙂

Granted working night float can suck, but when its just 8-10 hours a night, its not so bad.

Nights are when I have gotten the most procedures/seen the most crazy stuff.
 
Stop complaining people!!! Enjoy the journey. Where else would you rather be???😀 Why such a rush to get out of the hospital? You have worked hard for several years to be there.
 
Stop complaining people!!! Enjoy the journey. Where else would you rather be???😀 Why such a rush to get out of the hospital? You have worked hard for several years to be there.

Effects of pre-med kool aid.
 
First, if you can only be in the hospital a finite amount of hours, programs have to implement night float and you end up not working daylight hours for up to 12 or so weeks out of the year. Second, when programs are asked to cut down hours, it doesn't come out of the floor work that needs to get done, it comes out of didactics and electives. Third, the interns have the most to learn and spend the fewest hours in the hospital each day. It means it takes more years for them to get to the same experience level. Fourth the number of long cases tou can get into is cut in half when hours are cut in half. In a field where you only get good at things by doing a lot of them, that's disastrous.


Thanks for the insight.
 
Wait why do residents believe reducing work hour limits would impair their education? Most surgeries are done during the day are they not? I would think most of a resident's education would be during the day/early evening when the attending is around to educate them.

When you get to residency, you will realize that there is not a lot of hand holding in residency so the majority of your education comes from the senior residents (or cheifs) rather than the attendings.

The hours are bad because they create more handoffs, limit what you see on your own (ie limit your autonomy), limit the time you can spend doing the case and limit your exposure to procedures. Unfortunately the amount of work you have to do has not changed but the amount of time you have to do it has decreased
A couple good comments:


In the vein of that second one, I'm curious, if a residency program is investigated or something by the ACGME for underrreporting resident work hours, are residents at risk? Is a resident endangering his/her career by lying to the ACGME?

If you report your program and they lose accreditation, you are SOL to get a fellowship program. That means you either change residencies to match to a fellowship or keep your mouth shut. Honestly the hours are not that bad.

Last year my residency put a group of the interns through 2 trial systems with the new work hours and we compared it to the old system. First, we were more exhausted with the new systems. You never leave the hospital at a reasonable time (usually around 9ish for us) as opposed to the old system that had 1 day of pain and the others you left at a normal time. Instead of pulling off a bandaid quickly (call system), it is the continuous slow pull that wears you down over time (new systems).

Also, when you comare the hours of sleep, it was negligible between the 2 systems with the exception of the 48 hours around call. The new system got 1-2 more hours of sleep in the 48h around call but this evened out the rest of the time.
 
I think a lot of us who have lived under two systems now have a very different view than what sounds better as a premed.

Agree

As stated in the article, sleep deprivation is unhealthy and dangerous, and using a system that fails to address this is stupid. If residents cannot be fully trained using a system that allows them work in a healthy environment, then extend the length of their residency training. Why assume that the system of the past (long work hours and call) is the ideal, even if it has produced competent physicians? The achievement of quality physician education and safe, healthy physician work practices aren't mutually exclusive. Why prioritize learning over the safety of the physician and his/her patients?

1) I hope you are the first residency class that has to work an extra year or two. Let's see what you say then- doubt you will be sticking to your guns then...

2) You vastly overestimate how dangerous and unhealthy a little lack of sleep is. They don't keep you awake for a week straight. You work overnight and then get most of the next day to sleep and recover. Your sleep debt is the same (and honestly can be lower in the old system)

3) We have no evidence that
a) work hour restrictions will make things safer
b) work hour restrictions will make things more humane (I'd argue the opposite)
c) Residents can't function during the current work hours (or should I say, couldn't function during the old work hours)

Basically the changes were made without any evidence. EBM... apparently a thing of the past. These changes were pushed by the media and people who claimed that fewer hours HAD to make things safer and more humane, mind you without evidence. There is a single study from the Brigham that looks at this but has some pretty big flaws/lack of outcomes (like no difference in patient harm ).

Well I have gone through both systems and my experience does not support the claim that it is safer and more humane. In fact, I would say this made things worse. Our interns were more tierd and got less experience than my class. You have the same amount of work to do during the day, now you have a very finite amount of time to do it in. You always felt like you were fighting the clock. While technically you can work a 16 hour shift, you need 10h until your next shift (which makes teh 16h to 14h shift). Now subtract the 1-2 hours for handoffs and you end up with a 12 hour day to do the same amount of work that was done in a 30 hour shift. Because of these added ineffiiciencies, you need more interns to do the same amount of work.

What I have seen does suffer is elective time and didactics. There is no 'extra' time for conferences since you are racing against the clock. Normally, internship has few electives and the electives are 2nd year. Since it takes more interns to do the same amount of work (and it is near impossible to get funding from the gov't for a larger intern class) the 2nd years have to work more calls/pick up the slack for the interns. This means your elective time 2nd year is vastly limited. Well if you are in internal medicine and applying to fellowship, much of your elective time will come AFTER you have applied to fellowships.


what about the physicians' health? I haven't seen a rebuttal to the accepted notion that sleep deprivation is detrimental to one's immediate and long-term health. Why must this be the price of an adequate training and learning experience? Can't we break out of the closed-minded perspective that anything challenging the old ways is doomed to fail? If those who trained with q2 call and 120 hour weeks have a problem with residents having a better experience in residency than they did because of some sense of pride in the trials and hazing initiations of medicine, then I feel their opinion is shortsighted and lacks a place in modern medicine. If they have concerns about the quality of patient care during residency, it seems apparent to me that this would be very directly improved, or certainly not harmed, by having better rested residents. If they have concerns about the quality of patient care post-residency, then like I said, compensate for the loss of weekly work time by extending the length of training.

So as I posted above, that will be published by Hopkins sometime (don't know when), the hours slept between the old system and the new system were virtually identical
. The only difference was that you get like 6 hours of sleep each night with the new system and 8 hours of sleep 2 nights a week 0-2h 1 night a week and 12 one night a week (with the time to sleep 24h if you wanted). The sleep debt was lower in the old system because you had time to catch up.

In all honesty I did 2 systems using the new work hours (night float and a pseudo-call system) and was more tierd after both of them than with a normal system.

Also, the training is better with the old system. You never really know patients someone else admits for you. That actually leads to worse patient care. Add the million handoffs that now take place and you really make no headway in making things safer (if you don't think handoffs cause problems, go down to the ED sometime).
 
Stop complaining people!!! Enjoy the journey. Where else would you rather be???😀 Why such a rush to get out of the hospital? You have worked hard for several years to be there.

Because for many being a physician isn't the end goal of life.

(sent from my phone - please forgive typos)
 
If you report your program and they lose accreditation, you are SOL to get a fellowship program. That means you either change residencies to match to a fellowship or keep your mouth shut. Honestly the hours are not that bad.
I was thinking more of a situation where your program gets investigated independent of your reporting, and wondering if you would get in trouble for simply underreporting at the behest of your superiors. It's understandable though that if the program is "convicted" of breaking hour restrictions then you're screwed regardless.
Last year my residency put a group of the interns through 2 trial systems with the new work hours and we compared it to the old system. First, we were more exhausted with the new systems. You never leave the hospital at a reasonable time (usually around 9ish for us) as opposed to the old system that had 1 day of pain and the others you left at a normal time. Instead of pulling off a bandaid quickly (call system), it is the continuous slow pull that wears you down over time (new systems).

Also, when you comare the hours of sleep, it was negligible between the 2 systems with the exception of the 48 hours around call. The new system got 1-2 more hours of sleep in the 48h around call but this evened out the rest of the time.
In that case it seems to me that both systems are unacceptable.
1) I hope you are the first residency class that has to work an extra year or two. Let's see what you say then- doubt you will be sticking to your guns then...
Would additional years compensate for the lost education or training time?
2) You vastly overestimate how dangerous and unhealthy a little lack of sleep is. They don't keep you awake for a week straight. You work overnight and then get most of the next day to sleep and recover. Your sleep debt is the same (and honestly can be lower in the old system)
How long is a resident awake at any given point during the week? Do you disagree with the information Dr. Youn cited that 24 continuous sleepless hours significantly impairs cognitive and motor function?
3) We have no evidence that
a) work hour restrictions will make things safer
b) work hour restrictions will make things more humane (I'd argue the opposite)
c) Residents can't function during the current work hours (or should I say, couldn't function during the old work hours)

Basically the changes were made without any evidence. EBM... apparently a thing of the past. These changes were pushed by the media and people who claimed that fewer hours HAD to make things safer and more humane, mind you without evidence. There is a single study from the Brigham that looks at this but has some pretty big flaws/lack of outcomes (like no difference in patient harm ).
Why do you think reduced working hours would make the training system less humane?

As for point (c), I refer back to my previous question about the immediate effects of sleep deprivation. Even if the quality of patient care improves, is the physical and mental condition of the resident not of concern during their training?

Well I have gone through both systems and my experience does not support the claim that it is safer and more humane. In fact, I would say this made things worse. Our interns were more tierd and got less experience than my class. You have the same amount of work to do during the day, now you have a very finite amount of time to do it in. You always felt like you were fighting the clock. While technically you can work a 16 hour shift, you need 10h until your next shift (which makes teh 16h to 14h shift). Now subtract the 1-2 hours for handoffs and you end up with a 12 hour day to do the same amount of work that was done in a 30 hour shift. Because of these added ineffiiciencies, you need more interns to do the same amount of work.

What I have seen does suffer is elective time and didactics. There is no 'extra' time for conferences since you are racing against the clock. Normally, internship has few electives and the electives are 2nd year. Since it takes more interns to do the same amount of work (and it is near impossible to get funding from the gov't for a larger intern class) the 2nd years have to work more calls/pick up the slack for the interns. This means your elective time 2nd year is vastly limited. Well if you are in internal medicine and applying to fellowship, much of your elective time will come AFTER you have applied to fellowships.
I'm not arguing in support of the newly implemented/current system so much as I am in favor of reform. From what you've said it's apparent that there are serious issues in the new system as well, and I don't pretend to believe that everything as it is now is perfect.
So as I posted above, that will be published by Hopkins sometime (don't know when), the hours slept between the old system and the new system were virtually identical. The only difference was that you get like 6 hours of sleep each night with the new system and 8 hours of sleep 2 nights a week 0-2h 1 night a week and 12 one night a week (with the time to sleep 24h if you wanted). The sleep debt was lower in the old system because you had time to catch up.

In all honesty I did 2 systems using the new work hours (night float and a pseudo-call system) and was more tierd after both of them than with a normal system.

Also, the training is better with the old system. You never really know patients someone else admits for you. That actually leads to worse patient care. Add the million handoffs that now take place and you really make no headway in making things safer (if you don't think handoffs cause problems, go down to the ED sometime).
I don't necessarily buy that the only way to ensure continuity of care with one's patients is to work excessively long waking shifts. I imagine spacing out sleep breaks throughout a 36 hour call shift with cross-coverage among multiple residents (acknowledging that this would entail more GME funding and things) would allow one to follow patients through admission to discharge and still maintain a reasonable state of health.
 
I wonder, if the amount of caffeine/energy drinks consumption rises significantly because of the intense work hours in the past. I'm sure its still high for the interns.
 
A bit melodramatic, no? You aren't ever near death (unless you are talking about your ICU patients). Residents aren't dropping like flies. The schedule is very doable. This is premed unsubstantiated fears and fodder. Please.

Yeah, I do have a lot of fear. Fear of my future wife screwing around with my plumber because I am never ever home. And when I am home, I am sleeping. Not even cooking dinner, eating, or watching TV with her. I don't need to go through residency to count the hours in the day, plug in my commute, and hours at the hospital to see that it is absurd to have a flourishing family - unless my wife is a masochist.

I don't understand why not only the resident has to suffer, but his family also. "yeah, we'll give you a highly covetted opportunity to passively learn, while we use you like a sponge and squeeze every single ounce of blood from you to ensure that we have as much cheap labor as possible. Oh and as for your pretty little wife and your kid? No worries, us, the administration, will take good care of them while you're gone"

Well wow, good and kind sir(s)! Thank you for exploiting my talents, genuine ambition, good work ethic, valuable knowledge, and taking my life and shoving it up my own ass.

Its 20 fuking 12. Why should we (YOU = THE DOCTORS) try to conform to some quarterly income/expense statistic to bring costs down AT THE EXPENSE of our lives? Want to go cut costs? And dont want to hire more interns? Cut it elsewhere. Take the money from the military if health care is supposedly so damn important to you. But give residents the work conditions that they deserve.

As for the argument about increasing residency and how "I would like it when the time comes", you know what? I'd much rather do a year or two extra of residency and not make the crazy $$, but at least I'll still have a more or less normal personal life, and my family will still be by my side. Who knows, maybe I'll even be home for a few extra holidays during my extended years...

The way I see it, you only live ones. Your best years are by far in your 20's and 30's. Why the hell should I keep my parking brake on during those years? No. Life continues.

*Typed from my phone, please ignore the grammar mistakes*
 
I was thinking more of a situation where your program gets investigated independent of your reporting, and wondering if you would get in trouble for simply underreporting at the behest of your superiors. It's understandable though that if the program is "convicted" of breaking hour restrictions then you're screwed regardless.
In that case it seems to me that both systems are unacceptable.

Would additional years compensate for the lost education or training time?
How long is a resident awake at any given point during the week? Do you disagree with the information Dr. Youn cited that 24 continuous sleepless hours significantly impairs cognitive and motor function?
Why do you think reduced working hours would make the training system less humane?

As for point (c), I refer back to my previous question about the immediate effects of sleep deprivation. Even if the quality of patient care improves, is the physical and mental condition of the resident not of concern during their training?

I'm not arguing in support of the newly implemented/current system so much as I am in favor of reform. From what you've said it's apparent that there are serious issues in the new system as well, and I don't pretend to believe that everything as it is now is perfect.I don't necessarily buy that the only way to ensure continuity of care with one's patients is to work excessively long waking shifts. I imagine spacing out sleep breaks throughout a 36 hour call shift with cross-coverage among multiple residents (acknowledging that this would entail more GME funding and things) would allow one to follow patients through admission to discharge and still maintain a reasonable state of health.


Not sure how cross coverage would be beneficial for patients. Seems like one of the biggest concerns with the new system is signing out to the next resident and increasing the frequency of signouts. The turnover, as I understand it, leads to increased opportunity for errors. If you have a 36 hour call with cross coverage by several residents and no individual accountability that would seem to increase the risks to the patients. Without incredibly solid communication between residents and an even more solid emr I don't see how this could happen.
 
Why the hell should I keep my parking brake on during those years? No. Life continues.

Because being a doctor is an amazing privilege and it's literally impossible to learn without working 30 hour days...or something.

It's like a cult of abuse, really. The average program director could give Jim Jones a run for his money.
 
It's like a cult of abuse, really. The average program director could give Jim Jones a run for his money.

Obviously we hang out with different program directors. I'm not one, but the ones I know work hard, within the current rules structure, to help residents. Of course, there are exceptions, but the "average" one is a sadist? Don't agree.
 
Not sure how cross coverage would be beneficial for patients. Seems like one of the biggest concerns with the new system is signing out to the next resident and increasing the frequency of signouts. The turnover, as I understand it, leads to increased opportunity for errors. If you have a 36 hour call with cross coverage by several residents and no individual accountability that would seem to increase the risks to the patients. Without incredibly solid communication between residents and an even more solid emr I don't see how this could happen.

Aren't handoffs unavoidable regardless if you spend 8 hours, or 20 in the hospital? Hence doctors leave as detailed notes as possible... To say that someone must be in a hospital for 36 hours to minimize hand offs..when the handoffs still occur regardless, is a very ridiculous reason to cause damage to the resident's personal life. You guys are not robots. **** happens all the time. You go in there, you do your best, and then you're supposed to leave (within a reasonable amount of time). YOURE NOT supposed to be bullied by other residents, attendings, and administrators...and intimidated to lie on your work log. Wtf???? Yeah, looks like we'll keep taking it up the ass. Hospitals will continue to be "more effecient and cost effective", and patient outcomes will remain as positive as ever.
 
Most people are at their peak physical health/beauty.

Maybe, maybe not, but there are other things that compensate and are more important in life. I am not the only person to like their 50's, think their 40's were better than their 30's and am looking forward to their 60's.
 
Aren't handoffs unavoidable regardless if you spend 8 hours, or 20 in the hospital? Hence doctors leave as detailed notes as possible... To say that someone must be in a hospital for 36 hours to minimize hand offs..when the handoffs still occur regardless, is a very ridiculous reason to cause damage to the resident's personal life. You guys are not robots. **** happens all the time. You go in there, you do your best, and then you're supposed to leave (within a reasonable amount of time). YOURE NOT supposed to be bullied by other residents, attendings, and administrators...and intimidated to lie on your work log. Wtf???? Yeah, looks like we'll keep taking it up the ass. Hospitals will continue to be "more effecient and cost effective", and patient outcomes will remain as positive as ever.

If you have a failure rate of .005 events per handoff that you cannot change, if you double the number of handoffs by halving the number of contiguous work hours you've doubled the number of failures. The question that was being debated, in going to the new system, was whether or not the increase in signout errors outweighed the number of errors caused by fatigue.


This is healthcare we're talking about. Philosophies may vary, but my humble opinion is that patient health and safety should come before resident comfort.
 
Not sure how cross coverage would be beneficial for patients. Seems like one of the biggest concerns with the new system is signing out to the next resident and increasing the frequency of signouts. The turnover, as I understand it, leads to increased opportunity for errors. If you have a 36 hour call with cross coverage by several residents and no individual accountability that would seem to increase the risks to the patients. Without incredibly solid communication between residents and an even more solid emr I don't see how this could happen.

In my example solution I was thinking two residents each with the same patient set working to manage and treat them and alternative sleep shifts when needed.
 
In my example solution I was thinking two residents each with the same patient set working to manage and treat them and alternative sleep shifts when needed.

Or reasonable shifts that overlap a few hours.
 
In my example solution I was thinking two residents each with the same patient set working to manage and treat them and alternative sleep shifts when needed.

Without increasing the size of the patient set, which I think is what you're suggesting, I'd wager there aren't enough doctors to go around.
 
This is healthcare we're talking about. Philosophies may vary, but my humble opinion is that patient health and safety should come before resident comfort.
One thing I'd like to point out is that according to resident input here, the current "new" system doesn't actually reduce sleep deprivation in residents, meaning that the observed lack of improvement in patient care quality is to be expected. I think it is reasonable to assume that actual reduction of resident sleep deprivation would improve patient care (going back to still immediate cognitive and physical impairment effects of sleep deprivation while working.)
 
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