my CS results dont come back in time or I fail?Am I booted from my match? Aprog?

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minstral

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Anyone know. Just took it today, no guarantee I will have results in time and if they are negative deifntely not time to take again before intern year starts.

So what happens. Please just tell me I get to start residency anyways and I will gladly fork over another 1200 for the CS if it comes to that
 
Anyone know. Just took it today, no guarantee I will have results in time and if they are negative deifntely not time to take again before intern year starts.

So what happens. Please just tell me I get to start residency anyways and I will gladly fork over another 1200 for the CS if it comes to that

Most programs require that you have passed Step 2 - both parts to start internship. Your example above is exactly the reason we don't encourage people to wait until the last minute to take the exam.

When you signed up for the match it was with the agreement that you would be ready and available to start work on July 1. If you are not, you are in violation, at least of your contract and the program could decide to let you go. Most probably will not because at this late date its hard to find replacements. Better check with them what they require and what happens if you fail or do not have your scores back. Most programs will tell you that you cannot start without the passing score.
 
This is such a "dumb" answer but didn't that intern in Grey's Anatomy failed his CS exam, and he was given the chance to retake it? Maybe it's an institution thing?

From what I know taking the CS early on is just more imperative for IMGs because you need to be certified by ROL deadline. I still think it's a terrific feeling to say bye bye to usmle!

As for failing, I think everybody leaves the CS exam with a lot of i-should've's. the passing rate is very high, especially for US grads. somebody told me (though i'm sure this is not entirely true) that it really is more of a test to gauge english communication skills. of course what really adds up to the nerves is that it is such a subjective exam.

good luck:luck:
 
My theory is why does USMLE wait till the last minute to score them! I hardly see 3 months before internship as waiting till the last minute

This is ridiculous. Furthermore I logged in in September and end of April/May was the ealiest date available. (can I blame the FMGs for this?)

Further, Furthermore, exams taken through --Mar 23 through May 17 --- score reports come the earliest on Jun 18 and the latest on Jul 16 as per USMLE ... For $1200 they need to do better.
Im certain this time period encompasses many 1000's of AMG who have matched including the 30 or so saw today in Chicago.

Not to mention my program apparently doesnt start July 1 rather we have orientation from July 16 for a week and Start on June 24th.

If USMLE gave us scores in a reasonable manner NOT 3 months after it would (and should) be a complete non-issue.

Maybe I'll start a class action suit...
 
My theory is why does USMLE wait till the last minute to score them! I hardly see 3 months before intership waiting till the last minute

This is ridiculous. Furthermore I logged in in September and end of April/May was the ealiest date available. (can I blame the FMGs for this?)

Furher, Furthermore, exams taken through --Mar 23 through May 17 --- score reports come the ealriest on Jun 18 and the latest on Jul 16 as per USMLE ... For $1200 they need to do better.
Im certain this time period encompasses many 1000's of AMG who have matched including the 30 or so saw today in Chicago.

Not to mention my program apparently doesnt start July 1 rather we have orientation from July 16 for a week and Start on June 24th.

If USMLE gave us scores in a reasonable manner NOT 3 months after it would (and should) be a complete non-issue.

Maybe I'll start a class action suit...


You can blame whomever it is that you want. Bottom line is that you waited too long to register and/or schedule your exam. Seems like you want to blame everyone (USMLE, FMG's, etc) for something only you have control over.

😕😕😕😕
 
My theory is why does USMLE wait till the last minute to score them! I hardly see 3 months before intership waiting till the last minute

This is ridiculous. Furthermore I logged in in September and end of April/May was the ealiest date available. (can I blame the FMGs for this?)

Furher, Furthermore, exams taken through --Mar 23 through May 17 --- score reports come the ealriest on Jun 18 and the latest on Jul 16 as per USMLE ... For $1200 they need to do better.
Im certain this time period encompasses many 1000's of AMG who have matched including the 30 or so saw today in Chicago.

Not to mention my program apparently doesnt start July 1 rather we have orientation from July 16 for a week and Start on June 24th.

If USMLE gave us scores in a reasonable manner NOT 3 months after it would (and should) be a complete non-issue.

Maybe I'll start a class action suit...

+pity+

You could have taken your CS in August of 2007 and had the results by October. I took my CS in August and had my results two months later.
Don't blame everyone else because you waited till too late to schedule your exam. If you had logged in in May or maybe even June, you could have gotten an available date for August.
And by the way, its stupid to blame FMG's for the fact that you couldn't get an available date till April/May since US grads take the exam as well, and therefore also fill available dates.
 
Did you have to register in September? Could you have registered earlier?
 
I guess I could have registered anytime I had $1200 but I was never made aware by anyone that there was a 8 month back log and a 3 month wait for results. Unlike step 1 and step2 CK which are efficient and easy to access.
 
This is such a "dumb" answer but didn't that intern in Grey's Anatomy failed his CS exam, and he was given the chance to retake it? Maybe it's an institution thing?

The majority of medical schools require it for graduation. All residencies require a diploma to start residency. If you don't graduate, you don't start.
Also on Grey's, their institution promotes attending/resident love, so I don't think you can base any answer on that tv show. If you remember the first episode, it was like they had never seen the interior of an OR based on the tour. They come to work when it is daylight. They leave in the daytime. They eat in patients rooms. I could go on for days.
 
I registered in September, and everything was filled till March. But they allow you to put your name on a list that emails you the minute a new spot opens up earlier. I was able to take the exam in December.

If I was registering for an exam and I got a test date that late, I would have searched the other testing sites to find something sooner and make sure my name was on the list to recieve those emails.
 
There is more than one testing site. Flying across the country might be a PITA but you could have avoided this problem. I continue to be amazed at how adults with this much higher education can't take care of their priorities better than this. Hope the news comes back as a pass and in plenty of time but there really is no one to blame but yourself.
 
There is more than one testing site. Flying across the country might be a PITA but you could have avoided this problem. I continue to be amazed at how adults with this much higher education can't take care of their priorities better than this. Hope the news comes back as a pass and in plenty of time but there really is no one to blame but yourself.

I think it is unfortunate that med students are probably the highest educated level of people that are still often treated like babies. At my school, we were 'required' to register for the test by July and take it by the end of March to prevent this problem. To be honest, I appreciated that kick in the butt, since it is hard to force yourself to shell out that much money when you are poor. But this kind of thing leads to a "learned helplessness", where we just keep waiting to be coddled and told what to do. No wonder so many of us are so immature!
 
I think it's unfortunate that no one (AMA, AMSA, whoever) stepped up to fight the existence of Step II CS in the first place. Why do we pay so much money to go to an accredited school in the first place? If NBME is going to have a monopoly on these tests, then their actions should be more highly regulated.
 
I had to fly 2500 miles to the nearest testing center. I was part of the first class to take the test, and also took Step 2 CS the very first time it was ever administered in LA.
 
I think it is unfortunate that med students are probably the highest educated level of people that are still often treated like babies. At my school, we were 'required' to register for the test by July and take it by the end of March to prevent this problem. To be honest, I appreciated that kick in the butt, since it is hard to force yourself to shell out that much money when you are poor. But this kind of thing leads to a "learned helplessness", where we just keep waiting to be coddled and told what to do. No wonder so many of us are so immature!

Very good points.
 
When you signed up for the match it was with the agreement that you would be ready and available to start work on July 1. If you are not, you are in violation, at least of your contract and the program could decide to let you go. Most probably will not because at this late date its hard to find replacements.

I didn't know that you could start a residency without passing both parts of Step 2 . . . it seems it was hard this year to register early for Step 2 CS, i.e. testing dates really fill up quick, I wonder if this will cause a lot of people to start residency late or not at all compared to last year?
 
I know at least 3 people who got kicked out of their residency position when they didnt have their CS by July... one of them was an AMG even. Some programs may work with you and let you start with a VACATION for a few weeks if you are anticipating the score soon.. but more than a month and they will start looking for someone else probably.

The problem that you are not seeing is that you need to get a temporary license for your start of residency else you cant write orders in the hospital. You need the CS for the license and that doesn't just pop up the next day... it usually takes about a month.
 
I know at least 3 people who got kicked out of their residency position when they didnt have their CS by July... one of them was an AMG even. Some programs may work with you and let you start with a VACATION for a few weeks if you are anticipating the score soon.. but more than a month and they will start looking for someone else probably.

The problem that you are not seeing is that you need to get a temporary license for your start of residency else you cant write orders in the hospital. You need the CS for the license and that doesn't just pop up the next day... it usually takes about a month.

For FMGs you have to have passed both Step 2 CK and Step 2 CS by Match Day or you get withdrawn from the match, . . . apparently because of the risk of not getting the steps passed so you can get a license, they are licensing exams after all, PDs apparently cut AMGs more slack, but still want the Step 2 CS at least within the first month of residency.
 
The majority of medical schools require it for graduation. All residencies require a diploma to start residency. If you don't graduate, you don't start.
Also on Grey's, their institution promotes attending/resident love, so I don't think you can base any answer on that tv show. If you remember the first episode, it was like they had never seen the interior of an OR based on the tour. They come to work when it is daylight. They leave in the daytime. They eat in patients rooms. I could go on for days.


:laugh: Like I said, "dumb" answer. That was just me trying to offer some words of "wisdom" from what I know...:laugh:

I had to fly 16 hours to take Step 2 CS, fight jet lag, and contend with some bugging infeiority that american english may be different from mine...
It is pretty unfair to blame FMGs for not doing your research before hand. But these things do happen, often to the best and brightest...so I just hope the best for you. Good luck :luck:
 
Im not blaming the fmg at all . they are required to get it done befor ethey can even get interviews. im blaming the system for not being set up to accomadate the numbers. my statement about IMG filling all the spots early was merely factual. tongue and cheek as blaming them for no spots being open when i looked 8 month ago. either increase the openings or give results within a reasonable time period is all im asking for.
My school btw waived the passing of CS to graduate for this year. only requires you sat for it.
 
Im not blaming the fmg at all . they are required to get it done befor ethey can even get interviews. im blaming the system for not being set up to accomadate the numbers. my statement about IMG filling all the spots early was merely factual. tongue and cheek as blaming them for no spots being open when i looked 8 month ago. either increase the openings or give results within a reasonable time period is all im asking for.
My school btw waived the passing of CS to graduate for this year. only requires you sat for it.

You can complain all you want about the latency period but it's well known that places book months in advance and the USMLE does post the result dates. It's not that unreasonable for them to take months to grade a subjective exam. SATs and AP scores always took months to get back to us.

Either your school or you are to blame. And if your classmates didn't have trouble getting their scores in on time then that really only leaves the latter.

Blaming FMGs (though you were at least partially joking) is silly; they have to take their exams before January to meet the ROL deadline. The people who took up all the test dates between Jan - Mar were your fellow AMGs who were informed enough to schedule it early enough.
 
I didn't know that you could start a residency without passing both parts of Step 2 . . . it seems it was hard this year to register early for Step 2 CS, i.e. testing dates really fill up quick, I wonder if this will cause a lot of people to start residency late or not at all compared to last year?

That was my point; you can't start residency without passing CS and because the OP signed a contract saying he would be ready to start residency on July 1, he/she may be in violation of that contract so the program has every right to drop them. As noted above, most US schools require it for graduation.
 
"The people who took up all the test dates between Jan - Mar were your fellow AMGs who were informed enough to schedule it early enough."


and any of them who fail would be unable to take again and receive results in time for residency, so they are in no better position than I should they (or I) fail. in fact it would appear nearly impossible for anyone to take the exam twice within any reasonable time of the match process/starting a residency ie taking twice and receiving results in less than 1 year.
 
"The people who took up all the test dates between Jan - Mar were your fellow AMGs who were informed enough to schedule it early enough."


and any of them who fail would be unable to take again and receive results in time for residency, so they are in no better position than I should they (or I) fail. in fact it would appear nearly impossible for anyone to take the exam twice within any reasonable time of the match process/starting a residency ie taking twice and receiving results in less than 1 year.

The solution is simple. Don't fail. It's not a very hard exam anyways, just a pain in the arse...
 
in fact it would appear nearly impossible for anyone to take the exam twice within any reasonable time of the match process/starting a residency ie taking twice and receiving results in less than 1 year.

It might appear that way but its not true. You simply have to be more organized, register as early as possible, check obsessively for earlier dates, etc. You are fighting a losing battle here. There may need to be more dates available for testing, but "it is what it is" and there's no use blaming others for your failure to plan for exactly this situation.

As we commonly say, "lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part."
 
what's done is done. at this point, you really have no other recourse but to wait and pray hard. seriously, i felt like i did terribly in that exam (failed to diagnose a very obvious case!) but i was alright.
should you indeed have to retake the exam, you can submit your email at the oasis website (but this isn't really reliable bec the delay is substantial). what my friend did was to actually man the website, so should there be an opening, he pounced on it immediately.
like i said, there's still the hope that you cleared it. so hope for that. post when you do, and i'd be happy to post "i told you so." if not, im just gonna say i'm sorry and this time prepare for it so you'll never have to pass this way again.
good luck.
 
and any of them who fail would be unable to take again and receive results in time for residency, so they are in no better position than I should they (or I) fail. in fact it would appear nearly impossible for anyone to take the exam twice within any reasonable time of the match process/starting a residency ie taking twice and receiving results in less than 1 year.

That is not true. Like I said earlier, you put your name on the opening spots list and you could easily have moved your date up. I must have recieved over fifty emails from the NBME from September till I took my exam in December letting me know of earlier spots available.
 
I guess I could have registered anytime I had $1200 but I was never made aware by anyone that there was a 8 month back log and a 3 month wait for results.

I find it hard to believe there was an 8 month waiting period across all testing centers for the CS. Perhaps you were inflexible about the location of the exam? The 3 month wait is known when you register for the exam. Score release date is dependent on the date you take the exam. If you were never made "aware" of it, I guess you didn't read what you were agreeing to when you registered for and payed for the exam.

Know the rules of the game before playing, else don't complain afterwards.
 
It might appear that way but its not true. You simply have to be more organized, register as early as possible, check obsessively for earlier dates, etc. You are fighting a losing battle here.

Exactly. 👍

When I registered for Step 2 CS, I had to choose from a bunch of very inconvenient days, since all other days were booked up.

By checking religiously (q4 hours or so) over the next few days, I was able to find a much more convenient day to take it. Since I was already registered, all I had to do was request a date change, and it was done.

I find it hard to believe that the people in the class above you, or people in your class, didn't warn you to book your exam EARLY, or give you advice on how to find a day that worked well for you.
 
In order to check obsessively for opened up test slots, I downloaded an email program called Mozilla Thunderbird. I added the email account that USMLE sends the step II cs availablity notices to, and I had the interval in which my email is checked at 1 minute. I also substituted the New Mail sound for a loud telephone ring whenever I got an email. I also kept an internet explorer window already logged into the Step II CS scheduling website, so I could pounce on the test date the instant I received the email.

It definitely worked for me no problem, but you do have to go under house arrest for a couple days while you wait for that email.
 
quote]


Can't help commenting on your choice of avatars.

You have been: Pam Grier, Snoop Dog and now Billy Holiday!

very interesting.

Actually, I've been: Legalos --> Pam Grier --> Beyoncé --> Lauren Hill --> Angelina Jolie --> Snoop Dogg ---> Michelle Obama --> Mike Huckabee ---> Coretta Scott King. What can I say, I bore easily 😀

But Billie Holiday is a great idea, maybe I'll use it soon :meanie:
 
At my school, we were 'required' to register for the test by July and take it by the end of March to prevent this problem. But this kind of thing leads to a "learned helplessness", where we just keep waiting to be coddled and told what to do. No wonder so many of us are so immature!

I think it's unfortunate that no one (AMA, AMSA, whoever) stepped up to fight the existence of Step II CS in the first place. Why do we pay so much money to go to an accredited school in the first place? .

I know at least 3 people who got kicked out of their residency position when they didnt have their CS by July... one of them was an AMG even. .


It really is an easy test. I am an FMG and know people from my school to fail step one, but nobody to fail CS. If you can't pass it, whether you are at an accredited school or not, AMG or not, then maybe it would be good to consider whether or not you really should be an MD. Being an MD is a large responsibility. I am sure most people pass CS with little to no study.

However there are probably those who have gotten through life operating on the principle of "its not what you know, its who you know". They have gotten into good schools largely through connections. But they really do not have what it takes to interact with sick patients at a primary decision making level in a competent capacity.

If you fail step 2 CS, and you did not have pneumonia with <92 O2 sats and were obtundated, or had a significant car wreck just minutes prior to the exam, or something like that - then you really do need to look within and ask ; am I over reaching in life?
 
It really is an easy test. I am an FMG and know people from my school to fail step one, but nobody to fail CS. If you can't pass it, whether you are at an accredited school or not, AMG or not, then maybe it would be good to consider whether or not you really should be an MD. Being an MD is a large responsibility. I am sure most people pass CS with little to no study.

That's exactly my point. It is an easy test and I'm sure that almost no one from an accredited US school fails it. That's why it's outrageous that we should be required to spend thousands of dollars taking it.
 
That's exactly my point. It is an easy test and I'm sure that almost no one from an accredited US school fails it. That's why it's outrageous that we should be required to spend thousands of dollars taking it.

THe price is high compared to the other tests - but I bet there is less profit. CS had to pay so many people, where as the others are just computer tests (no real cost involved).

Being the easy test it is, its a good way to weed out people who really are just not suited for medicine. You would have to be pretty inept to fail it - inability to conduct a simple exam, or obtain a simple history, complete inability to generate a note. I think its good to have in place to weed out those that are a danger - who got in to med school when they shouldn't have, and who might get carried along in residency due to connections or whatever - and then be a menace.

The step 2 CS forum has a surprising number of people claiming to fail, many who claim to be AMG. I often think they must be prank posts because I find it hard to believe anyone with an medical, EMT, nursing, PA, chiropractic training could fail CS.
 
First, if you are an FMG you have to pass the CS exam in order to be ECFMG certified and start a residency. You cannot start a residency program with out being ECFMG certified. Plus, if you are an FMG and don't have your PASSING scores back before "match day", you are pulled immediately from the match. I have seen this happen to several people. Same goes for the folks taking Step 2 as well. I know a guy that spent thousands of dollars on interviews and the match only to be withdrawn in the middle of Feb - (their cutoff date for having passing scores back). HE WAS OUT OF THE BALLGAME.

Second, if you are an American graduate and your school does not require you to pass before graduation then you can start your residency program on time if the program allows it. American students don't need a certification before starting residency - only graduation.

In regard to the above post about American Medical Grads not passing the CS - I know this has happened and seems to happen more to the people that do very well in the class and have excellent Step 1 and 2 scores. This test is not what you know, but how you play the game of interviewing your patient etc... My husband had scores in the 98 for step 1 and 95 in step 2 and failed the CS exam because he failed to do a complete exam and only a focused exam like in "real practice". He is an english speaking white male who graduated at the top of his class. I have heard from several residents that said the same thing I have just said. When the test was first given, it was several of their top students that failed out of UAB and LSU and the dean was horrified.

Yes it does happen.
 
Data did not load - go to USMLE website and it will give the passrate for US students and FMG's.
 
It really is an easy test. I am an FMG and know people from my school to fail step one, but nobody to fail CS. If you can't pass it, whether you are at an accredited school or not, AMG or not, then maybe it would be good to consider whether or not you really should be an MD. Being an MD is a large responsibility. I am sure most people pass CS with little to no study.

However there are probably those who have gotten through life operating on the principle of "its not what you know, its who you know". They have gotten into good schools largely through connections. But they really do not have what it takes to interact with sick patients at a primary decision making level in a competent capacity.

If you fail step 2 CS, and you did not have pneumonia with <92 O2 sats and were obtundated, or had a significant car wreck just minutes prior to the exam, or something like that - then you really do need to look within and ask ; am I over reaching in life?

Come on now...Over reaching in life???
 
Although I do agree that it takes far too long for the testing centers to get off their butts and score the exams, you should have taken the exam earlier knowing this.

I also agree that testing should not be monopolized, as it is now. More competition = higher quality testing.

On another note: I've heard that the CS is going the way of the dodo. Is there any truth to this?
 
This test is not what you know, but how you play the game of interviewing your patient etc... My husband had scores in the 98 for step 1 and 95 in step 2 and failed the CS exam because he failed to do a complete exam and only a focused exam like in "real practice". .

Come on now...Over reaching in life???

Yes over reaching.

There is ALOT more to be a doctor than memorize a bunch of mnemonics. First, the memorization alone is a problem - as most medical students satisfy themselves with that. They memorize but really don't understand why etc. So they really can't think about things - education and smarts are vastly different. Many educated people cannot think - problem solve or be creative. Memorizing an answer helps you solve specific problems you have memorized the answer to, understanding helps you find more ways to deal with things, custom fit solutions instead of simply putting all of your patients in a cookie-cutter treatment routine. There is an old NIGHT GALLERY TV show in Youtube called the black bag, about a time in the far future when medicine is reduced to a simple algorhythm because all education has been dumbed down - medicine becomes a simple cookbook if A = B healing method.

Second, doctors really should have some personality, some bedside manner. I know many of you think of medicine in terms of pushing buttons and this cure for that disease matching, but making patients feel better is much more. Even if we speak of placebo, it has been shown to result in patients getting better about 35% of the time. A doctor with a strong healing personality has the power of placebo on his side.

Most MD's could not survive on the health care playing field without the sloped advantage they have from insurance. If healthcare went to a pure cash basis (such as is the case with most acupuncturists, naturopaths, massage therapists etc) the vast majority of MD's would be out of business ....NOW. 2 studies have showed that more money is spent on "holistic" health care each year, even though it is almost exclusively paid for out of pocket. Say what you might about evidence based, proof etc - where people put their own hard earned money shows what people really value. People put their money on massage, acupuncture etc to a large extent over medicine. Much of that is personality driven - people believe it, and they feel better afterwards. I myself hate going to my doctor, and pretty much all previous doctors, but love going to my acupuncturist, massage therapist etc. If my insurance did not pay I would perhaps never go to my MD.

CS in part tests how you interact with patients - personality deficits in medicine are compensated for by the fact that someone else (insurance) is paying for the care much of the time, lack of healing attitude, lack of ability to build rapport with a patient is hidden by 3rd party pay. Level the health care field by letting everyone pay for their care (like it was just a few decades ago) and you would see an attrition in medicine that would shock Hippocrates himself. CS is an opportunity to see if you can interact appropriately with people

Also, cutting corners with things like quickie inadequate exams like a "real practice" is part of the crap that everyone hates in medicine.

I was supposed to have shoulder surgery (full thickeness tear of supraspinatus, partial tear of subscapularis, torn labrum, spurs) a few weeks ago. I went in for my clearance exam by my PCP. I had a 103 degree temp, and upper respiratory symptoms. They cleared me for surgery in 2 weeks but said "call back if you aren't better". I called back 3 times, and could not get an appointment or get the MD to call me back. I showed up for the surgery at the outpatient surgery center - I was coughing up a cup of so of dark thick green sputum daily. I had crackles so loud that if the room was kind of quiet, I had people at work say "what the hell is that?" - they could hear the snap crackle and pop of my lungs as I breathed. The pre-op nurse took my O2 sats with a pulse ox, and the reading was 93 - she said "that can't be right" and wrote a higher number. I was febrile and she wrote a normal temp. I complained. I was told it was probably allergies causing it. I was minutes away from surgery and I lied and said I had a latex allergy which brought it to a griding halt. I was not about to let those fudging, incompetent boobs operate on me. I still can't get into my PCP until May 1st. So I went to the pet store and bought antibiotics and treated myself. Why - because everyone was doing brief exams and cutting corners, taking the easy way. Take CS - let someone evaluate if you know how to treat a patient adequately. Memorization, although a lower form of learning - does you no good if you are doing things sloppily, too quickly, without adequate thoroughness - what good is any knowledge if you aren't using, by gaining enough facts from a decent exam.

They want to to see you do a decent adequate exam on CS because that is how it should be done in "real practice", not lying, cutting corners, fudging on results etc.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...ez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum Here is what patients want - many doctors do not measure up. Doctors hurry , cut corners, have hostile relationships with other health care personell, do not demonstrate caring.

Big deal you can memorize a bunch of junk and pass step 1 and step 2. Some people can memorize all sorts of baseball rules, but not play a decent game of baseball either. If you want a health care role in which you deal with patients with a bunch of flow charts, and memorized data and algorhythms - then do phone medicine (they have a link sometimes up above of being a doctor on call, and answering questions over the phone) or do IME's (independant medical exams) for insurance companies, or research. Don't go in and cut corners with patients, fake your way through a day, reduce patient care to a series of memorized equations and cookie cutter routines. Dealing with patients cannot be learned in books.

What they expect in CS is a minimum. If you can't do it, medicine is over reaching.
 
Being the easy test it is, its a good way to weed out people who really are just not suited for medicine. You would have to be pretty inept to fail it - inability to conduct a simple exam, or obtain a simple history, complete inability to generate a note. I think its good to have in place to weed out those that are a danger - who got in to med school when they shouldn't have, and who might get carried along in residency due to connections or whatever - and then be a menace.

The step 2 CS forum has a surprising number of people claiming to fail, many who claim to be AMG. I often think they must be prank posts because I find it hard to believe anyone with an medical, EMT, nursing, PA, chiropractic training could fail CS.


Hmmmm...I just thought I would share: I know three wonderful smart people with good medical training, who by some weird twisted fate failed their Step 2 CS exams (so yes, it may be uncommon, but it does happen). I don't think you have to be "inept" to fail it. You may be a poor actor, yes. But just because you fail CS does not mean you can't be a good MD. Do you really think CS measures competence as a doctor? Riiiight..."i believe there's something wrong with your heart, or it could be your lungs, or it could be your gastrointestinal tract. we need to run a few tests, some blood tests and imaging studies. for the moment, it would be in your best interest to refrain from smoking, drinking alcohol and using illicit drugs. i would also advise you to practice safe sex and always wear a seatbelt. do you have any questions?" 😀

So to those who failed CS, for the record, I don't think it judges your competence as a doctor. This is just another obstacle to hop over. Good luck guys--I'll see you next match!
 
I was a clinical social worker before going into medicine and I did great with the CS exam. We did a lot of role playing in gradute school and I have interviewed hundreds of people that were not forthcoming in the interview. I know that did happen when I was taking the CS. You have so much time and the person is slow to answer etc.. or the answers don't make sense. Frustering at least. I did struggle a bit on the USMLE 1 and 2 with decent but not outstanding scores.

My husband who failed did not see the need to ask all those crazy questions - especially to a 70 year old woman about her sex life and go through the whole counseling thing.

I know for a fact he is a good in the clinic and with patients - they love him because he does listen. He got caught up in the differential diagnosis part of the exam and trying to get results from the exam and interview instead of playing the game.

A lot depends on where you take it too and who the staged patients are. Perception is still a human trait. I do know of a lot of people that said they did it the way he did it and passed. Who knows.

I saw a girl show up and take the exam in very long, dragging the floor black pants that needed a little hemming. She wore very very high heels. That is not all, she had on a shirt that showed her belly with a belly button ring and the top part showed a lot of cleavage. Wonder how she did?

I know I have done work and rotations with people that have taken the test and passed that are from other countries that I just plain cannot understand. How to they do it?

I look at the CS as just another expensive hoop to jump through - not only the money but the travel expense, time and stress.
 
He got caught up in the differential diagnosis part of the exam and trying to get results from the exam and interview instead of playing the game.

uh oh. That sounds a lot like my CS experience, and I'm still waiting for my results :scared:

Still I'd love for someone to clear up the contradiction on this thread. My understanding was (as several people have said) as long as you're a US grad and passing the Steps isn't a requirement for graduation at your school then you can start intern year even if you fail CS and don't have time to retake it before residency starts. It would just suck because you would have to pay to take it again probably use valuable vacation time to do it. Can anyone confirm or deny this?
 
Velo, in the state Im going it appears I need a dgeree/confirmation of graduation from my school to obtain a temp license. Without my CS scores I CAN obtain that from my school and hence I assue my temp license as well. I will fill out all the paperwork and proceed as such. If my ap is brought into question I will address it then and get my PD involved.

Best.
 
It also depends on your med school's policies, right?

We were required to pass before being allowed to graduate.
 
Yes over reaching.

There is ALOT more to be a doctor than memorize a bunch of mnemonics. First, the memorization alone is a problem - as most medical students satisfy themselves with that. They memorize but really don't understand why etc. So they really can't think about things - education and smarts are vastly different. Many educated people cannot think - problem solve or be creative. Memorizing an answer helps you solve specific problems you have memorized the answer to, understanding helps you find more ways to deal with things, custom fit solutions instead of simply putting all of your patients in a cookie-cutter treatment routine. There is an old NIGHT GALLERY TV show in Youtube called the black bag, about a time in the far future when medicine is reduced to a simple algorhythm because all education has been dumbed down - medicine becomes a simple cookbook if A = B healing method.

Second, doctors really should have some personality, some bedside manner. I know many of you think of medicine in terms of pushing buttons and this cure for that disease matching, but making patients feel better is much more. Even if we speak of placebo, it has been shown to result in patients getting better about 35% of the time. A doctor with a strong healing personality has the power of placebo on his side.

Most MD's could not survive on the health care playing field without the sloped advantage they have from insurance. If healthcare went to a pure cash basis (such as is the case with most acupuncturists, naturopaths, massage therapists etc) the vast majority of MD's would be out of business ....NOW. 2 studies have showed that more money is spent on "holistic" health care each year, even though it is almost exclusively paid for out of pocket. Say what you might about evidence based, proof etc - where people put their own hard earned money shows what people really value. People put their money on massage, acupuncture etc to a large extent over medicine. Much of that is personality driven - people believe it, and they feel better afterwards. I myself hate going to my doctor, and pretty much all previous doctors, but love going to my acupuncturist, massage therapist etc. If my insurance did not pay I would perhaps never go to my MD.

CS in part tests how you interact with patients - personality deficits in medicine are compensated for by the fact that someone else (insurance) is paying for the care much of the time, lack of healing attitude, lack of ability to build rapport with a patient is hidden by 3rd party pay. Level the health care field by letting everyone pay for their care (like it was just a few decades ago) and you would see an attrition in medicine that would shock Hippocrates himself. CS is an opportunity to see if you can interact appropriately with people

Also, cutting corners with things like quickie inadequate exams like a "real practice" is part of the crap that everyone hates in medicine.

I was supposed to have shoulder surgery (full thickeness tear of supraspinatus, partial tear of subscapularis, torn labrum, spurs) a few weeks ago. I went in for my clearance exam by my PCP. I had a 103 degree temp, and upper respiratory symptoms. They cleared me for surgery in 2 weeks but said "call back if you aren't better". I called back 3 times, and could not get an appointment or get the MD to call me back. I showed up for the surgery at the outpatient surgery center - I was coughing up a cup of so of dark thick green sputum daily. I had crackles so loud that if the room was kind of quiet, I had people at work say "what the hell is that?" - they could hear the snap crackle and pop of my lungs as I breathed. The pre-op nurse took my O2 sats with a pulse ox, and the reading was 93 - she said "that can't be right" and wrote a higher number. I was febrile and she wrote a normal temp. I complained. I was told it was probably allergies causing it. I was minutes away from surgery and I lied and said I had a latex allergy which brought it to a griding halt. I was not about to let those fudging, incompetent boobs operate on me. I still can't get into my PCP until May 1st. So I went to the pet store and bought antibiotics and treated myself. Why - because everyone was doing brief exams and cutting corners, taking the easy way. Take CS - let someone evaluate if you know how to treat a patient adequately. Memorization, although a lower form of learning - does you no good if you are doing things sloppily, too quickly, without adequate thoroughness - what good is any knowledge if you aren't using, by gaining enough facts from a decent exam.

They want to to see you do a decent adequate exam on CS because that is how it should be done in "real practice", not lying, cutting corners, fudging on results etc.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/...ez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum Here is what patients want - many doctors do not measure up. Doctors hurry , cut corners, have hostile relationships with other health care personell, do not demonstrate caring.

Big deal you can memorize a bunch of junk and pass step 1 and step 2. Some people can memorize all sorts of baseball rules, but not play a decent game of baseball either. If you want a health care role in which you deal with patients with a bunch of flow charts, and memorized data and algorhythms - then do phone medicine (they have a link sometimes up above of being a doctor on call, and answering questions over the phone) or do IME's (independant medical exams) for insurance companies, or research. Don't go in and cut corners with patients, fake your way through a day, reduce patient care to a series of memorized equations and cookie cutter routines. Dealing with patients cannot be learned in books.

What they expect in CS is a minimum. If you can't do it, medicine is over reaching.

You don't know the reason why 1 person failed 1 exam. To suggest someone is over reaching in life due to 1 exam is silly...

CS was a breeze for me and most people, but I just don't believe in suggesting someone consider another career choice because of it.
 
Certainly some fail the CS because they truly do not possess the skills needed to be a physician and are perhaps "over-reaching".

But I'll bet the vast majority are like razorback's husband: they did not understand the rules of the game. Frankly, while I feel bad about that, there really is no excuse to not do complete exams during a testing situation or to "play the game" when you are given the play book up front.

(BTW:Not asking a 70 woman about her sex life is a failure to follow the rules and frankly, presumptive...70 yo have sex and misses the fact that one of the largest groups of new diagnoses of HIV are in the elderly.)
 
My husband who failed did not see the need to ask all those crazy questions - especially to a 70 year old woman about her sex life and go through the whole counseling thing.

Its a shame your husband did not do a geriatric rotation. Many geriatrics have sex. There was a newspaper article here in Arizona about all the retired people in Sun City caught having public sex : on golf courses, the recreation centers mixed hot-tub, etc etc. I can remember doing a pelvic exam on a 70 + year old woman with urge incontinence - had a fresh tattoo on her inner thigh of her boyfriends name.

As well I learned that a fair number of them are gay. Gays are not just people brought in by space ships to act in TV dramas during the day, and then taken back to another planet at the end of the day. I can remember doing a rotation with a very conservative and somewhat narrow minded preceptor - always asked each patient if they were married - one ~50 year old lady said no - he kept probing and it was pretty clear to me soon that she was gay - I almost chuckled when he finally let it go by saying : well its never too late, I know some people who still find their true love and get married later in life. I was amazed at how imperceptive he was, how closed his doors of communication were in some areas, and how narrow minded he was.

Being a good doctor to a large degree means being good with people; really listening to them and understanding their lifestyle etc. Again its not just memorizing enough mnemonics. Alot of it is understanding - memorizing is not the same as understanding. Alot of it is perhaps something either we learn young, or innately have that makes some great with people and others not. Those who can't do teach, and maybe the good memorizers can go into academics and teach those who also have the ability to deal with people

So much learning as a MD takes place outside the pages of a book - some things you have to learn from people - and again some people just do not have the minds to do that. You just cannot find many of the important things you need to know to take care of peoples health, to be a doctor, written in books.

Again a thorough exam includes getting a thorough history, even if the questions seem crazy to a doctor because they cannot fathom it in their white bread sheltered spoiled little world - even if the questions seem crazy : yes housewives who belong to PTA use meth, yes doctors use illicit drugs, yes priests have unprotected sex, yes men are battered by the wife,

You may be a poor actor, yes. But just because you fail CS does not mean you can't be a good MD. Do you really think CS measures competence as a doctor? !

Its one measure. And one of its strengths is that an objective person is viewing your ability to interact with people. On rotations you build rapport with preceptors (or build animosity) and their objectivity is colored. The people viewing you at CS really have no preconcieved ideas about the people they are watching, so if you do not do a thorough exam and rush through it cutting corners - they are likely to note it - whereas if your preceptor likes you they may overlook the fact that you rush through your patient interactions doing a half cocked job. Having that objective evaluation is good, and hopefully it will keep more of the sloppy (although well educated as measured by memorization) doctors that are already too prevelant, from finishing their education.

Maybe if more doctors did the thorough job they expect at CS, medicine would not be one of the top 10 causes of death in the USA.

Its a shame that being a good doctor is seen as "playing a game" : okay, at CS we do a complete exam and take a good history simply to pass the test. In 'real life' remember, just go through the motions during the exam and then manufacture alot of numbers in your SOAP notes to satisfy the bullets needed in order to get paid by insurance. Its a shame that it is acting for a student doctor to take a good history and do a good exam, or interact with a patient appropriately

I am sure the orthopedic surgeon who was going to fix my shoulder was one smart SOB, did well on his steps (at least 1 and 2) and can memorize the heck out of things. But at the same time he and his crew lied (or missed due to doing the same sort of "real life" exam your husband plans to do) about my O2 sats, being febrile etc etc etc. Too much in a hurry. Too concerned about profits to be concerned about patients. Too self important to be bothered by guidelines established to protect the patient. Too much of a self-entity to be subject to rules. Too narcissistic, and too convinced of their superiority too early in life, to take an objective critique without rationalizing it away (they must hate AMG's ...*yeah right*, its just a game - nobody can be expected to do a thorough exam). Too pampered to put forth the effort to do an honest days work - always cutting corners.

Bottom line, its probable that doctors who fail CS do so because they did a crappy exam , had a crappy interaction with a patient and/or wrote a crappy note. If that is how their "real life" practice is going to be then they will be a crappy doctor. Sure they can get away with it - if they manufactures enough phoney SOAP note findings to cover their rear, puts in numbers where they are supposed to be - even if they are not true, if they is on enough insurance panels so that they keeps a large volume of patients because they have to see them because they is a perferred provider. Its doubtful they could run a successful cash practice unless they learn to take enough time, do a thorough job (one good enough people will pay hard earned cash for), and learns to interact with people successfully.

Then these shlock MD's are setting an example for the next generation of medicine of what not to become, but the next generation often does anyway - simply because they are more impressed with the shlock doctors credentials or where they went to school than they are with their real ability.
 
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