d

[Passionseeking]

h

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[perfect weather]

Don't give up!

I would try to have a heart-to-heart conversation with your pre-med advisor. Tell him you understand where he is coming from and he's certainly right that you messed up a few years ago. Admit and own up to your mistakes and express your desire to improve and do better--and ask him to help you with that. Then start to commit yourself to this- try your best to be on time, act professionally, be polite (basically what you imagine a good doctor would be like). Once he realizes that you're serious and this really means a lot to you, that's going to be an even STRONGER letter (since he can attest to your ability to improve, grit, and dedication)

Hang in there!

 

[MDwarrior]

Would sit down with that counselor,he can sink you for years to come with a bad letter,regardless of your race,agree you need to retake a lot of labs and courses with those grades due to the competition for available spots in medical school, you have to change his opinion because those insights he has of you are not of a professional doctor

 

[Wolvvs]

You're going to need to take Orgo I lab at least unfortunately.

I think this might be one of the situations where it would be better to use individual letters instead of the committee letter, I'm not sure if it's worth trying to repair a relationship with someone who isn't going to go to bat for you no matter what. @Goro if you have time could you take a look at this? Thank you so much!

 

[jayeyes97]

So I'll just start out by saying this sounds absolutely awful, unfair, and childish on the advisor's part. From what I've read, if someone doesn't have something nice to say when you ask for a LOR, they'll typically decline to write it. Actively writing bad things is...strange. I am not the same person I was when I first started college and was taking my pre-reqs, and I definitely wouldn't want to be solely judged on that person.

I'm not sure if this will make you feel better, but let me tell you my story: I had a pre-med advisor who was notoriously tough. I had to apply for my committee recommendation letter, which was a lot like yours, several letters compiled at the advisors discretion. Well, to make a long story short, she denied me the committee letter. I was literally f-----g crushed. Turns out I got denied over my orgo 1 grade- which was a C. That was it. I hated orgo, it hated me. I was not going to have a committee letter. I thought it would completely sink me.

To make a long story even shorter: I was accepted to a medical school yesterday. No committee letter, similar grades to yours, but with lots of extra curricular activities to make up for the deficits I couldn't fix easily. Please do not let this sink you. If you are truly motivated and committed, this will not stop you!

 

[perfect weather]

So I'll just start out by saying this sounds absolutely awful, unfair, and childish on the advisor's part. From what I've read, if someone doesn't have something nice to say when you ask for a LOR, they'll typically decline to write it. Actively writing bad things is...strange. I am not the same person I was when I first started college and was taking my pre-reqs, and I definitely wouldn't want to be solely judged on that person.

I'm not sure if this will make you feel better, but let me tell you my story: I had a pre-med advisor who was notoriously tough. I had to apply for my committee recommendation letter, which was a lot like yours, several letters compiled at the advisors discretion. Well, to make a long story short, she denied me the committee letter. I was literally f-----g crushed. Turns out I got denied over my orgo 1 grade- which was a C. That was it. I hated orgo, it hated me. I was not going to have a committee letter. I thought it would completely sink me.

To make a long story even shorter: I was accepted to a medical school yesterday. No committee letter, similar grades to yours, but with lots of extra curricular activities to make up for the deficits I couldn't fix easily. Please do not let this sink you. If you are truly motivated and committed, this will not stop you!

Congrats on your acceptance!!

 

[jayeyes97]

Congrats on your acceptance!!

Thank you!!! I feel like I should also tell you that I was accepted to the school where I actually talked about the denial for that letter in my interview. In all the interview preparation I did, I never thought I would talk about it. But it kind of just...came out. I think it probably worked in my favor to just be completely honest

 

[MDwarrior]

I do not think it is possible to avoid a letter from your pre-med advisor when applying to an American medical school. However I do not know the policy with regards to osteopathic schools.

 

[Goro]

You're going to need to take Orgo I lab at least unfortunately.

I think this might be one of the situations where it would be better to use individual letters instead of the committee letter, I'm not sure if it's worth trying to repair a relationship with someone who isn't going to go to bat for you no matter what. @Goro if you have time could you take a look at this? Thank you so much!

I agree. OP, just get individual LORs. It's OK

 

[jayeyes97]

I do not think it is possible to avoid a letter from your pre-med advisor when applying to an American medical school. However I do not know the policy with regards to osteopathic schools.

I had no issue applying to/interviewing at MD and DO schools without a committee letter. @Goro actually told me this in February of last year:

"Just collect individual LORs, and when you start making your school list, double check their admissions websites (something most applicants can't lift a finger to do) on their requirements/views/desires for committee LORs. If asked about why you don't have a committee LOR, just tell the truth."

 

[MDwarrior]

were you accepted at osteopathic or medical school ? Congratulations

 

[jayeyes97]

were you accepted at osteopathic or medical school ? Congratulations

thank you! accepted at DO, still waiting to hear back from MD waitlist. (sorry to hijack your thread OP)

 

[MDwarrior]

Hope it all works out for everyone, have an acceptances one MD school and 5 waitlists at medical schools, want it to be over spon

 

[deleted936470]

Stop talking to your pre-med advisor. Many are less than useful and this one sounds maliciously inept.
individual letters are OK, even if your school offers a committee letter and you don’t have one, not having one never presented to be a problem for me.

 

[deleted936470]

Imagine being a pre-med advisor whose sole role is to facilitate success of pre-meds or at least steer them in the right direction, and then actively trying to damage your student’s chances for medicine and even disclosing which particular disparaging comments he’d include. Employers have been sued for less.

 

[The REAL Doc McStuffins]

Ok so originally I was very interested in becoming a physical therapist and owning my own practice so my undergraduate courses were chosen for that goal. I was still a bio major but I took courses such as kinesiology, exercise physiology, etc, instead of upper level science courses like molecular genetics. After observation hours and great contemplation about physical therapy, I decided late that it wasn't worth it for me, with the biggest factor being the debt to income ratio. I always loved the science behind medicine in classes like chemistry, biology, and really enjoyed learning about the physiology of the body in a and p2. I did some thinking and research and decided that PM&R would be the perfect field for me. So I'm about to graduate in a week with a 3.6 GPA, but I did a lot better in my pre PT classes than in the classes required for medical school. I have As in physics 1 and 2, A/A- in biology, in chem I have A-/A- but i retook both chems and the original grades were Cs. Lastly I have a B/B- in orgo but I didn't take either lab. The point I'm trying to make with these grades are that they are bad and I need all the help I can get if I want to reach my goal of attending medical school in the fall of next year. The pre med advisor has disliked me for a long time cause when I had him I was a serious slacker in school, which is also the reason for the poor grades. Unfortunately my school has a system that for letters of recommendation HE has to be the one to write it. He says that he takes all the letters from the teachers that have agreed to write me a letter, and he ultimately decides what to include from each letter in his master letter. He told me verbadum that he'll be sure to include all the times I was late and didn't show up to his class in his letter and much more. I'm very set in going to med school, I enrolled for an EMT course this summer to get clinical experience, taking both orgo labs over the summer, and will study very intensely for the MCAT. My credentials are lacking and with my pre med advisor plotting to write a master recommendation letter that basically does the opposite of that, I'm not sure what to do. I'm African American and I heard that gives me a higher chance of getting in but I don't think that'll be enough considering my circumstance. Please, from people who have gotten in or plan to, any advice would be appreciated.

Why does he have to write you the letter? You don’t have to get a committee letter. Try to find a few professors to write letters for you. Your grades aren’t bad at all. You definitely have a chance at med school.

 

[Passionseeking]

My science department says that's the only way they do it, I still haven't set up amcas but if I could have my teachers write their individual letters that would be great but the science ones won't do it behind his back but I could try asking. Also you think they're not that bad? I see people with almost 4s struggling to get in so I feel like unless I do fantastic on the mcat it'll be tough for me to get in anywhere

 

[deleted936470]

My science department says that's the only way they do it, I still haven't set up amcas but if I could have my teachers write their individual letters that would be great but the science ones won't do it behind his back but I could try asking. Also you think they're not that bad? I see people with almost 4s struggling to get in so I feel like unless I do fantastic on the mcat it'll be tough for me to get in anywhere

Still ask anyway and see what the response is. If the professors are still reluctant to write you a letter without having it vetted by the pre-med "committee", I'd explain the situation and express that you're dubious to use the proper channels because of the disparaging comments about your attendance (that you have since worked on and fixed).
If these things are funneled through one person, then your school is silly. There really needs to be a "committee" as advertised and not a single gatekeeper on a power trip. Is there anyone else in the pre-med department you can talk to i.e. other committee members?
Any other local schools to transfer to? Just brainstorming.

 

[lanzhou_lamian]

My science department says that's the only way they do it, I still haven't set up amcas but if I could have my teachers write their individual letters that would be great but the science ones won't do it behind his back but I could try asking. Also you think they're not that bad? I see people with almost 4s struggling to get in so I feel like unless I do fantastic on the mcat it'll be tough for me to get in anywhere

I guess it's possible your science department has a very unique policy, but I still don't see why you wouldn't be able to just do individual letters. My school has a committee, but I chose not to use it (for various reasons.) I got individuals letters from my professors and they uploaded them directly to AMCAS. Unless the other teachers tell this particular teacher, I see no reason why he'd ever have to know anything about your application. Aside from my letter writers, no one at my school (including the premed committee) even know I applied.

 

[Passionseeking]

Still ask anyway and see what the response is. If the professors are still reluctant to write you a letter without having it vetted by the pre-med "committee", I'd explain the situation and express that you're dubious to use the proper channels because of the disparaging comments about your attendance (that you have since worked on and fixed).
If these things are funneled through one person, then your school is silly. There really needs to be a "committee" as advertised and not a single gatekeeper on a power trip. Is there anyone else in the pre-med department you can talk to i.e. other committee members?
Any other local schools to transfer to? Just brainstorming.

I'm graduating this year so I can't transfer but I'll try to ask the teachers for their letters individually. If they say no would it look bad to use letters from people from core classes because these people don't know about the master letter policy.

 

[Passionseeking]

I guess it's possible your science department has a very unique policy, but I still don't see why you wouldn't be able to just do individual letters. My school has a committee, but I chose not to use it (for various reasons.) I got individuals letters from my professors and they uploaded them directly to AMCAS. Unless the other teachers tell this particular teacher, I see no reason why he'd ever have to know anything about your application. Aside from my letter writers, no one at my school (including the premed committee) even know I applied.

Yea I'll definitely try to do something like that and I'm hoping it works out. If your school has the option then it doesn't make sense for my school to force me to do it this way, I'll definitely try to ask around.

 

[deleted936470]

I'm graduating this year so I can't transfer but I'll try to ask the teachers for their letters individually. If they say no would it look bad to use letters from people from core classes because these people don't know about the master letter policy.

They don't? Then good. It would not look bad.

 

[Passionseeking]

Do you guys think if I can get individual letters from 3-5 teachers that would be enough? Also would good letters + the stats I listed make me a good applicant?

 

[deleted936470]

Do you guys think if I can get individual letters from 3-5 teachers that would be enough? Also would good letters + the stats I listed make me a good applicant?

"good applicant" is impossible to assess without MCAT, ECs. Take the test first and we can advise on chances.

Most schools require 2-3 science letters, some require a non-science letter. So, yes, 3-5 is a good ballpark.

3.6 is decent, with an upward trend of course helping your chances.

LORs don't typically help unless filled with praise, they're generally kind of just checkmarks next to the application to show you can follow instructions.

 

[Passionseeking]

"good applicant" is impossible to assess without MCAT, ECs. Take the test first and we can advise on chances.

Most schools require 2-3 science letters, some require a non-science letter. So, yes, 3-5 is a good ballpark.

3.6 is decent, with an upward trend of course helping your chances.

LORs don't typically help unless filled with praise, they're generally kind of just checkmarks next to the application to show you can follow instructions.

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. To add a little more about ECs ( guessing extra curriculars) I played 4 sports while in college. Soccer, volleyball, cross country, ran track, and after running track I ended up holding 6 out of 9 of my school's male track records. I also did cmsv players which was a drama club and was the lead in the plays on and off campus. I don't have any clinical or research hours and I think that might hurt my application. I'm enrolled in an EMT class but it wouldn't end until late August so I don't know how many clinical hours I would be able to get before applying for schools at a competitive date. Speaking competitive date, when would be a good time to apply? I haven't studied for the mcat yet so I can't apply in June, but would like September be too late? Sorry for all of the questions my pre med advisor isn't the biggest help

 

[lanzhou_lamian]

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. To add a little more about ECs ( guessing extra curriculars) I played 4 sports while in college. Soccer, volleyball, cross country, ran track, and after running track I ended up holding 6 out of 9 of my school's male track records. I also did cmsv players which was a drama club and was the lead in the plays on and off campus. I don't have any clinical or research hours and I think that might hurt my application. I'm enrolled in an EMT class but it wouldn't end until late August so I don't know how many clinical hours I would be able to get before applying for schools at a competitive date. Speaking competitive date, when would be a good time to apply? I haven't studied for the mcat yet so I can't apply in June, but would like September be too late? Sorry for all of the questions my pre med advisor isn't the biggest help

1. You need clinical experience. A general rule of thumb is 150 hours of clinical volunteering/experience, 150 hours of non-clinical volunteering, and 50 hours of shadowing (with at least some of those hours being in primary care.) Applying with no clinical experience or shadowing will make your app basically dead on arrival. Schools want to see that you know what you're getting yourself into. That's impossible if you don't have clinical experience. If you have no clinical hours yet, trying to cram them in within the next month or two seems unlikely (and ill-advised). Plus even finding those opportunities right now is a bit challenging right now due to COVID.

2. If you have no clinical experience, applying this cycle would be challenging. Assuming that you do apply this cycle though, taking a September MCAT would not be ideal, because your score would not be back until October. Rule of thumb is that you generally want to apply by Labor day to be considered "on-time". That timeline probably has a bit more flexibility this cycle though because of all the MCAT cancellations, so, while September wouldn't be ideal, I don't think it's as disadvantageous as it would be in a "normal" cycle.

It's currently May. If you have no clinical hours and haven't begun studying for the MCAT yet, I'd seriously consider waiting a cycle. You're GPA is decent and, with some clinical experience, you could have decent ECs. Don't rush to submit a sub-par application when you could submit a good one with just a bit more time.

 

[Passionseeking]

1. You need clinical experience. A general rule of thumb is 150 hours of clinical volunteering/experience, 150 hours of non-clinical volunteering, and 50 hours of shadowing (with at least some of those hours being in primary care.) Applying with no clinical experience or shadowing will make your app basically dead on arrival. Schools want to see that you know what you're getting yourself into. That's impossible if you don't have clinical experience. If you have no clinical hours yet, trying to cram them in within the next month or two seems unlikely (and ill-advised). Plus even finding those opportunities right now is a bit challenging right now due to COVID.

2. If you have no clinical experience, applying this cycle would be challenging. Assuming that you do apply this cycle though, taking a September MCAT would not be ideal, because your score would not be back until October. Rule of thumb is that you generally want to apply by Labor day to be considered "on-time". That timeline probably has a bit more flexibility this cycle though because of all the MCAT cancellations, so, while September wouldn't be ideal, I don't think it's as disadvantageous as it would be in a "normal" cycle.

It's currently May. If you have no clinical hours and haven't begun studying for the MCAT yet, I'd seriously consider waiting a cycle. You're GPA is decent and, with some clinical experience, you could have decent ECs. Don't rush to submit a sub-par application when you could submit a good one with just a bit more time.

Thank you for the very informative response. My GPA is a 3.6 but it's higher than it should be because I retook both of my general chem classes and exchanged the Cs for A-s, does retaking them change anything. Also I didn't mention this but originally when I wanted to do physical therapy I actually had the opportunity to volunteer at a physical therapy clinic for 100 hours. I don't know if med schools would see this as good or bad but could that count towards my volunteer hours. I will be finishing up an EMT program mid August and right after I plan to work full time so I should have enough clinical experience before labor day, and instead of taking the MCAT in September I can grind with studying and take it in early August. I may not be able to have everything done by labor day exactly but like you said this isn't a normal cycle. Even though it's Corona time I believe that between now and early September I should be able to get 50 hours of shadowing a doctor. I know this is very rushed but I think I could do it if my physical therapy volunteer hours would be something that I could use

 

[deleted936470]

Thank you for the very informative response. My GPA is a 3.6 but it's higher than it should be because I retook both of my general chem classes and exchanged the Cs for A-s, does retaking them change anything. Also I didn't mention this but originally when I wanted to do physical therapy I actually had the opportunity to volunteer at a physical therapy clinic for 100 hours. I don't know if med schools would see this as good or bad but could that count towards my volunteer hours. I will be finishing up an EMT program mid August and right after I plan to work full time so I should have enough clinical experience before labor day, and instead of taking the MCAT in September I can grind with studying and take it in early August. I may not be able to have everything done by labor day exactly but like you said this isn't a normal cycle. Even though it's Corona time I believe that between now and early September I should be able to get 50 hours of shadowing a doctor. I know this is very rushed but I think I could do it if my physical therapy volunteer hours would be something that I could use

No, the grades are averaged and not replaced. Your institution GPA is rarely the same as what AMCAS/AACOMAS calculates, so I'd imagine then your cGPA and especially sGPA are less than 3.6.

Retaking a C and getting an A- still rounds to just above a C+ in the final GPA calculation.

In any scenario, the lack of clinical exposure will kill your application.

I recommend not applying this cycle.

 

[ihoop24]

Take a gap year. You're trying to cram everything in a short time period which is not a good idea, especially with all the uncertainty regarding COVID-19. Take the year the gather clinical experience and shadowing, kill the MCAT, and you should be good to apply next cycle.

 

[RIPMamba]

Ok so originally I was very interested in becoming a physical therapist and owning my own practice so my undergraduate courses were chosen for that goal. I was still a bio major but I took courses such as kinesiology, exercise physiology, etc, instead of upper level science courses like molecular genetics. After observation hours and great contemplation about physical therapy, I decided late that it wasn't worth it for me, with the biggest factor being the debt to income ratio. I always loved the science behind medicine in classes like chemistry, biology, and really enjoyed learning about the physiology of the body in a and p2. I did some thinking and research and decided that PM&R would be the perfect field for me. So I'm about to graduate in a week with a 3.6 GPA, but I did a lot better in my pre PT classes than in the classes required for medical school. I have As in physics 1 and 2, A/A- in biology, in chem I have A-/A- but i retook both chems and the original grades were Cs. Lastly I have a B/B- in orgo but I didn't take either lab. The point I'm trying to make with these grades are that they are bad and I need all the help I can get if I want to reach my goal of attending medical school in the fall of next year. The pre med advisor has disliked me for a long time cause when I had him I was a serious slacker in school, which is also the reason for the poor grades. Unfortunately my school has a system that for letters of recommendation HE has to be the one to write it. He says that he takes all the letters from the teachers that have agreed to write me a letter, and he ultimately decides what to include from each letter in his master letter. He told me verbadum that he'll be sure to include all the times I was late and didn't show up to his class in his letter and much more. I'm very set in going to med school, I enrolled for an EMT course this summer to get clinical experience, taking both orgo labs over the summer, and will study very intensely for the MCAT. My credentials are lacking and with my pre med advisor plotting to write a master recommendation letter that basically does the opposite of that, I'm not sure what to do. I'm African American and I heard that gives me a higher chance of getting in but I don't think that'll be enough considering my circumstance. Please, from people who have gotten in or plan to, any advice would be appreciated.

Direct message me bro!

 

[Passionseeking]

Yea I ideally wanted to be able to go to med school in the fall of next year considering that I graduated this semester, but based on all of the things that I need to do taking another gap year may be the tough pill that I need to swallow.

 

[Passionseeking]

So to have a great application I would need at least 150 clinical hours, at least 150 volunteer hours, at least 50 hours shadowing a doctor, a good MCAT score, and to take the orgo labs I'm missing. Is there anything else at all that would make me a better applicant? Now that I have a year before I need to apply I could do a lot to improve my application.

 

[candbgirl]

When are you taking the MCAT? When will you do your retakes and labs? How about your ECs? No mater what you decide about a letter from your advisor, it’s going to be hard to gather the needed letters what with everything going on with Covid 19 issues. When do you plan to apply? You seem to have an awful lot of time consuming stuff to complete before you can apply. And you really only want to apply one time, with the best possible application. Remember only around 40% of applicants are accepted in any cycle. That means around d 60% of applicants are rejected. This includes applicants with stellar applications.

Oh and all of the retakes you’ve done won’t replace the original grades. They will be averaged into your cGPA and sGPA.

Take your time and do it right.

 

[deleted936470]

So to have a great application I would need at least 150 clinical hours, at least 150 volunteer hours, at least 50 hours shadowing a doctor, a good MCAT score, and to take the orgo labs I'm missing. Is there anything else at all that would make me a better applicant? Now that I have a year before I need to apply I could do a lot to improve my application.

150 clinical hours seems low to me, not sure what the current dogma is in 2020 but I know some schools expect much more than that. 150 seems like a hard minimum frankly.

If you take a gap year, which you should, focus on some of these application factors:

Also, I see you focusing on minimum hours for several categories. Total hours don't matter relative to what you got from the experience. Your interviewers are going to be interested in how these experiences shaped you so avoid the checkbox mentality.


good luck

 

[Passionseeking]

150 clinical hours seems low to me, not sure what the current dogma is in 2020 but I know some schools expect much more than that. 150 seems like a hard minimum frankly.

If you take a gap year, which you should, focus on some of these application factors:

View attachment 304970


Also, I see you focusing on minimum hours for several categories. Total hours don't matter relative to what you got from the experience. Your interviewers are going to be interested in how these experiences shaped you so avoid the checkbox mentality.


good luck

Thank you so much, will definitely take all this into consideration

 

[Do squat]

Hey I had a similar issue. I just avoided the committee letter all together and had my letter writers turn in my LORs to interfolio. My cycle worked out fine without that committee letter.

 

[MDwarrior]

Good luck, would take a cycle off, need to dilute those poor performances in the past and build with what has been mentioned, the toughest admission is straight from college as well , everywhere I interviewed the majority of applicants there had been out of school 1-2 years strengthening their chances, keep focused, plan ahead, itis a marathon not a sprint to get your goal

 

[Passionseeking]

Thank you everyone for your advice. It's looking like I need to take an extra gap year to apply then. I didn't really want to do it cause instead of starting school in fall of 21 it'll be in the fall of 22, which is 2.5 years away from now. However if this is the best way to secure my spot I guess it'll make more sense to build up my application than to rush everything in 3 months and risk getting rejected from everywhere

 

[deleted480308]

Ok so originally I was very interested in becoming a physical therapist and owning my own practice so my undergraduate courses were chosen for that goal. I was still a bio major but I took courses such as kinesiology, exercise physiology, etc, instead of upper level science courses like molecular genetics. After observation hours and great contemplation about physical therapy, I decided late that it wasn't worth it for me, with the biggest factor being the debt to income ratio. I always loved the science behind medicine in classes like chemistry, biology, and really enjoyed learning about the physiology of the body in a and p2. I did some thinking and research and decided that PM&R would be the perfect field for me. So I'm about to graduate in a week with a 3.6 GPA, but I did a lot better in my pre PT classes than in the classes required for medical school. I have As in physics 1 and 2, A/A- in biology, in chem I have A-/A- but i retook both chems and the original grades were Cs. Lastly I have a B/B- in orgo but I didn't take either lab. The point I'm trying to make with these grades are that they are bad and I need all the help I can get if I want to reach my goal of attending medical school in the fall of next year. The pre med advisor has disliked me for a long time cause when I had him I was a serious slacker in school, which is also the reason for the poor grades. Unfortunately my school has a system that for letters of recommendation HE has to be the one to write it. He says that he takes all the letters from the teachers that have agreed to write me a letter, and he ultimately decides what to include from each letter in his master letter. He told me verbadum that he'll be sure to include all the times I was late and didn't show up to his class in his letter and much more. I'm very set in going to med school, I enrolled for an EMT course this summer to get clinical experience, taking both orgo labs over the summer, and will study very intensely for the MCAT. My credentials are lacking and with my pre med advisor plotting to write a master recommendation letter that basically does the opposite of that, I'm not sure what to do. I'm African American and I heard that gives me a higher chance of getting in but I don't think that'll be enough considering my circumstance. Please, from people who have gotten in or plan to, any advice would be appreciated.

How is it sabotaging to accurately relay your performance/behavior in the professors classes?

 

[jamaica jan sun princess]

How is it sabotaging to accurately relay your performance/behavior in the professors classes?

You've never skipped class? How is skipping class early in one's academic career relevant to medical school admissions?

 

[Goro]

Imagine being a pre-med advisor whose sole role is to facilitate success of pre-meds or at least steer them in the right direction, and then actively trying to damage your student’s chances for medicine and even disclosing which particular disparaging comments he’d include. Employers have been sued for less.

As a teaching moment, the workplace environment is very different from the educational one. I vaguely remember a TX case where a student sued a prof because the prof refused to write a LOR, and the student needed or wanted said LOR for getting into some field. Student lost the case. And in this case, as SB247 rightly pointed out, the prof was simply telling the truth about the Op's performance.

 

[deleted480308]

You've never skipped class? How is skipping class early in one's academic career relevant to medical school admissions?

I have never "been a real slacker" in a professor's class and then expected them to write me a letter saying I was a good student

 

[Goro]

You've never skipped class? How is skipping class early in one's academic career relevant to medical school admissions?

Says a lot about work ethic, for starters.

Not picking on you, jan sun, but I hope that SDNers contributing in the excellent thread avoid entitlement attitudes. There is no right to go to med school, after all. It's a privileged that is earned.

 

[GreenDuck12]

You've never skipped class? How is skipping class early in one's academic career relevant to medical school admissions?

It’s within the realm of what is appropriate to include in a letter: an evaluation of a persons academic history. In this case, the person writing the letter is NOT someone who is willing to write a strong letter in support of the application. It is in the OP’s best interest NOT to use this letter.

At this point, we have no evidence that the professor is actively sabotaging the OP. It could be that the professor does this for all applicants in similar situations.

OP, I would encourage you to get individual LoRs from professors. If, due to university policy, that is not possible due to the professor in question, I would enroll in 2 bio classes at a separate university and tell the professors on day one you would like to earn a LoR from them.

 

[MDwarrior]

Everyone is makeing great points, maturity and commitment are needed, I went to a top ten college, 90 percent Mcat. 3.9 university gpa, science gpa 4.0 and had all the extracurriculars .shadowing and and volunteer work and research, everywhere I went I was the youngest and told it should be known they look for older applicants, thankfully I have several acceptances and waitlists, it was not as easy as my premed advisor made it seem, do your best, that is all you can do, if it works out for you great, but be realistic in the end,

 

[jamaica jan sun princess]

I have never "been a real slacker" in a professor's class and then expected them to write me a letter saying I was a good student

That doesn't appear to be the case in this situation.

Says a lot about work ethic, for starters.

Not picking on you, jan sun, but I hope that SDNers contributing in the excellent thread avoid entitlement attitudes. There is no right to go to med school, after all. It's a privileged that is earned.

I completely agree with you regarding the earned privilege. I'm not sure if religiously attending class is an example of work ethic though. In my opinion, work ethic would be reflected in grades earned by the countless hours spent studying the material after class, completing projects, etc. This is coming from someone who never missed a class in undergrad. If I'm paying for a class, I'm getting my money's worth by attending.

It’s within the realm of what is appropriate to include in a letter: an evaluation of a persons academic history. In this case, the person writing the letter is NOT someone who is willing to write a strong letter in support of the application. It is in the OP’s best interest NOT to use this letter.

At this point, we have no evidence that the professor is actively sabotaging the OP. It could be that the professor does this for all applicants in similar situations.

OP, I would encourage you to get individual LoRs from professors. If, due to university policy, that is not possible due to the professor in question, I would enroll in 2 bio classes at a separate university and tell the professors on day one you would like to earn a LoR from them.

Unless I'm missing something, @Passionseeking stated that the pre-med advisor writes the committee letter and has stated they would include every instance where OP skipped class early on in their academic career. If it was habitual tardiness and skipping, I could understand the advisor's position. Should students who've reinvented themselves be solely judged on their older, lower GPA? I'm not an ADCOM, but from what I've read here, reinvention counts for somethings.

 

[GreenDuck12]

That doesn't appear to be the case in this situation.



I completely agree with you regarding the earned privilege. I'm not sure if religiously attending class is an example of work ethic though. In my opinion, work ethic would be reflected in grades earned by the countless hours spent studying the material after class, completing projects, etc. This is coming from someone who never missed a class in undergrad. If I'm paying for a class, I'm getting my money's worth by attending.



Unless I'm missing something, @Passionseeking stated that the pre-med advisor writes the committee letter and has stated they would include every instance where OP skipped class early on in their academic career. If it was habitual tardiness and skipping, I could understand the advisor's position. Should students who've reinvented themselves be solely judged on their older, lower GPA? I'm not an ADCOM, but from what I've read here, reinvention counts for somethings.

I did not comment on how the process should be, simply how the OP needs to navigate it. Programs have wide latitude to establish policies and practices for students to earn a recommendation. No one has a right to a LoR/CL. No one has a right to a strong LoR/CL. I think the OP is lucky to have received the warning that he/she did about the content of such a letter and has the opportunity to pursue alternative avenues for getting the needed letters.

 

[deleted480308]

That doesn't appear to be the case in this situation.

OP said they were a "slacker", their words

 

[deleted936470]

OP said they were a "slacker", their words

OP sounds like he had slacked in one of his premed classes early on and while he’d be silly to ask for LORs without having improved his attendance issues and grades, he’s identified his problem. The premed “advisor” that’s damning him for skipping his class early in this kid’s career and is simply holding a grudge.

 

[deleted936470]

As a teaching moment, the workplace environment is very different from the educational one. I vaguely remember a TX case where a student sued a prof because the prof refused to write a LOR, and the student needed or wanted said LOR for getting into some field. Student lost the case. And in this case, as SB247 rightly pointed out, the prof was simply telling the truth about the Op's performance.

Seems like the student had poor judgement by insisting on getting a letter the prof refused to write. Suing here screams entitlement. Maturity needed and this relates to OPs case and certainly OP is not entitled to a good committee letter or a good LOR by this pre-med advisor who has a soured opinion of him.
My comment was made because it just seems like a high risk, low reward of trying to involve yourself as an advisor by actively telling people how you plan to ruin them. At first it just seemed petulant but I think now it also may be short-sighted.
Other professors are at your school for the right reasons, OP. Find them.