my school's AOA elections -- fair?

[Zolpidem25]

hey guys-

so i was hoping to get your opinions on the recently completed AOA selection process, as it was carried out this year at my medical school. i was offered an invitation to apply for AOA about a month ago, and was recently told that I was not elected to my school's chapter. without wanting to sound bitter, I do feel that the selection process was unfair, and i was wondering if people agree or disagree.... here is how it happened:

when i first started med school, the policy as it was explained to me, was that people would be offered AOA if they had earned end of the year honors in any combination of 2 out of the first 3 years. in other words, if someone received cumulative honors for year 1 and year 3, they would be eligible. or any combination. so with this system, at the end of second year, the students who had received honors for both year 1 and 2 were automatically awarded AOA status, right then at that point in time. i was in a situation where i had only honored 2nd year. so i knew in the back of my mind that if i did really well 3rd year, i would still get in....

at the beginning of 4th year, i found out that i had indeed honored 3rd year. therefore, i met the eligibility criteria and was expecting to become AOA. shortly thereafter, i was informed that the criteria by which AOA selection would be carried out was being revised. i was told that the two out of three rule no longer applied, and a new system would be implemented. supposedly this change was being enforced by some power higher up than my medical school. like the national AOA body or something.

under the new system, the top 18% of the class was offered an application for AOA (excluding the people who were already members). on that application, you included research and community service. then a formula was used, based on class rank, Step 1 scores, research, and service, to determine who would be the new members (ie: the new students who would get to join those who were already AOA from the end of second year, elected under different criteria altogether). essentially plugging data into an algorithm. the selection process was carried out by a committee, which consisted of the AOA president, vice president, and one other member -- all people in my class who earned their AOA status under the old, 2 out of 3, system. which now doesn't apply to me.

so -- i didn't get into AOA. now one might say that my resume is lacking in terms of research/service, and that despite my good class rank and board scores, a true AOA member is a more well-rounded medical student. which is all fine and good. but what i'm saying is that i feel like the rules were changed in the middle of the game. people who got in at the end of second year, might not have under the new system. and vice versa. the same group of students was judged by two different standards at two separate points in time. i can't see how that is fair. if they wanted to change the selection criteria, they should have finished off my class under the old system, and then implemented the new one for the rising 3rd years, who did not yet have any members. i'm also bothered by the fact that my own classmates were involved in the process. i think it should be a faculty-run thing. in fact, i don't understand why a "selection committee" is even necessary in the first place.

overall, its easy for me to sit here and be upset about this, especially in light of the fact that i have applied to a lot of high-profile places, many of which will not offer me an interview now (?) because of this. furthermore, i really do feel cheated, because from an academic standpoint, i really do think i am qualified. then again, do i even have good reason to be upset? or am i totally off base here? how do AOA elections work at other schools? is this really a big deal -- ie: should i attempt to speak with an involved faculty member on the issue? should i look into possibilities such as appealing the process? i mean, if someone who knows a thing or two about this were to tell me, dude just drop it... then i probably would.

i guess i'm looking for advice on how to proceed.....
thanks.
Z

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[inositide]

see PM...

 

[MISTERshortcoat]

Wow, that does sound very unfair to me. At my school, 3rd year AOA election is based solely on scores from the first 2 years -- pretty much the 'honor both years' thing. But 4th year is a totally different story. We submit our CVs into a black box, and out comes AOA membership. We have no idea what gets us in, the criteria they judge us on, or who makes the decisions in the mysterious 'AOA committee'. It would be nice to know, at least, who's making these decisions...

I'm hoping AOA criteria is easier to come by at other institutions.

 

[TommyGunn04]

At some schools with "committees" AOA election becomes somewhat of a popularity test, at least once you pass that threshold percentage of high enough grades to be considered. It's different from place to place though, so it's tough to say what happened in your specific case. But if it is as you described, that's quite unfair! They shouldn't just change the rules like that. To make things fair, they should have been changed for all classes forward, NOT retrospectively to include other classes that were operating under the old rules.

 

[metastatic dz]

here are my two pence...

First off, I think the selection criteria at Zolpidem's school is likely the best way to select students for membership into AOA. Membership in AOA implies that you were well-rounded, contributed to the learning/academic environment at your medical school and perhaps even contributed to medicine itself by doing research...all assuming that you've also got the grades/scores, etc. The way they changed it, however, is unfair...and you should bring this up to the administration at your school.
The old system that you describe, is crap...total crap.

My school has an interesting policy...the top 4 students (class rank only) at the end of 2nd year are elected automatically, as Junior AOA members. Then, at the end of 3rd year, 12 additional members are elected, but this time based on the whole package. The top 25% of the class are asked to submit their CVs and some sort of voting occurs, and the 4 junior AOA members from the year prior have some, albeit little, influence on selection. Usually, they may be able to swing one or two ppl who may be on the fence in the administration's eyes. This system, I think works. We were just informed who made AOA, and except for one person, I believe its an accurate list of who the best students are in my class.

Anyway, I hope things work out for you...and I seriously doubt that you will now not be offered interviews at places simply because of your AOA status. Though AOA does help.

 

[postme]

My school selects AOAs in a similar way to that described by Metastatic DZ. Up to 4 people are selected after their second years for Junior AOA. This selection is based on grades, CV, personal statement, and an online class vote. Grades and CV/PS carry the most weight, while the online voting provides a check and balance system for a**holes to be punished. Works very well. CV/PS are judged by research, leadership, and community service. Each CV/PS is read and scored by student members of AOA, and select AOA faculty representing each clinical department.

The AOA Constitution stipulates that only the top 25% of students (by grades) can be eligible for AOA, and that no more than 1/6 of the graduating class can receive an invitation. It says this very clearly. It does not specify how to select Junior members. So, after third year, we once again get CV/PS and hand select the top 25% by grades to be read by the committee. This committee has a very specific rubric for scoring these documents that it reworked every year to make sure it is still relevant. Then we go through the same process as that described above.

Things get slightly complicated with MD/PhDs and people doing research years. However, the AOA constituion says very clearly that only 1/6 of the graduating class can be considered, so we review people with the class they will graduate with.

I think Zolpidem's school is finally getting up to speed. For some time AOA has encouraged schools to look at more than grades. It has taken some schools longer than others to adapt.

As for changing policies for one graduating class, I disagree with that. As for students being involved, at our schools that is a crucial part of the dialogue as faculty need perspective from students to judge how meaningful a research activity, leadership activity, etc. is.

Zolpidem, how many students does your school select for Junior AOA? Considering that it is based only on grades, I think your system would be very wrong to select more than a couple of people.

We also don't use Step 1 scores. We feel the scholastic achievement of the members is summarized sufficiently by grades.

 

[Zolpidem25]

I think Zolpidem's school is finally getting up to speed. For some time AOA has encouraged schools to look at more than grades. It has taken some schools longer than others to adapt.

As for changing policies for one graduating class, I disagree with that. As for students being involved, at our schools that is a crucial part of the dialogue as faculty need perspective from students to judge how meaningful a research activity, leadership activity, etc. is.

Zolpidem, how many students does your school select for Junior AOA? Considering that it is based only on grades, I think your system would be very wrong to select more than a couple of people.

i cannot remember exactly how many were selected for "Junior AOA" -- i think it was somewhere around 10 people... maybe 12. my understanding was that AOA is an ACADEMIC honors society. i mean, there are other honors societies that exist for other purposes like community service (ie: Aesculapians, etc.) .... AOA is supposed to be based on academic merit, that is -- class rank. i believe that should be the primary criterion. i mean, if we're going to bring leadership activities and community service into this, then we're turning this into a high school National Honors Society type of thing.

and regardles, that doesn't change the fact that the rules were changed in the middle of the game .... that is my bottom line...

furthermore, i absolutely 100% disagree that students should be in any way whatsoever involved in the selection process. that is utterly ludicrous. there could be someone on the selection committee who has some personal reason or vendetta for wanting to keep me or any other candidate out. why should my classmates even know what my class rank is? its none of their freaking business. why should 3 students, all of whom earned their AOA status under an entirely different standard, be able to choose MY fate? they are my colleagues, my EQUALS. who are they to decide whether or not I am AOA material? they have been awarded this authority under a now defunct set of criteria. it should be FACULTY making the decision, and even then, there should not be much of a decision to make. just calculate the top 1/6th of the graduating class (as you stated is the national limit), and those people are in. done and done.

instead, i feel like i am being judged. like this is rush, and i'm trying to get into some fraternity. the whole thing is adolescent. 👎

i guess i am bitter. 😡
just remember -- what goes around, comes around.
Z

 

[RonaldColeman]

i cannot remember exactly how many were selected for "Junior AOA" -- i think it was somewhere around 10 people... maybe 12. my understanding was that AOA is an ACADEMIC honors society. i mean, there are other honors societies that exist for other purposes like community service (ie: Aesculapians, etc.) .... AOA is supposed to be based on academic merit, that is -- class rank. i believe that should be the primary criterion. i mean, if we're going to bring leadership activities and community service into this, then we're turning this into a high school National Honors Society type of thing.

and regardles, that doesn't change the fact that the rules were changed in the middle of the game .... that is my bottom line...

furthermore, i absolutely 100% disagree that students should be in any way whatsoever involved in the selection process. that is utterly ludicrous. there could be someone on the selection committee who has some personal reason or vendetta for wanting to keep me or any other candidate out. why should my classmates even know what my class rank is? its none of their freaking business. why should 3 students, all of whom earned their AOA status under an entirely different standard, be able to choose MY fate? they are my colleagues, my EQUALS. who are they to decide whether or not I am AOA material? they have been awarded this authority under a now defunct set of criteria. it should be FACULTY making the decision, and even then, there should not be much of a decision to make. just calculate the top 1/6th of the graduating class (as you stated is the national limit), and those people are in. done and done.

instead, i feel like i am being judged. like this is rush, and i'm trying to get into some fraternity. the whole thing is adolescent. 👎

i guess i am bitter. 😡
just remember -- what goes around, comes around.
Z

The AOA selection process is mystifying to say the least. My friend and I were top 2 in the class after 2nd year, Step 1 260+, NBMEs 99th percentile etc. at a lower tier med school. Strangely, neither of us managed to get Jr. AOA, which based on the timing--given after we had completed 1 clerkship of 3rd year--must have been based on the first 2 years. We didn't even receive applications. I tried to get info from the dean's office, but they won't even tell us what criteria were used.

 

[Zolpidem25]

The AOA selection process is mystifying to say the least. My friend and I were top 2 in the class after 2nd year, Step 1 260+, NBMEs 99th percentile etc. at a lower tier med school. Strangely, neither of us managed to get Jr. AOA, which based on the timing--given after we had completed 1 clerkship of 3rd year--must have been based on the first 2 years. We didn't even receive applications. I tried to get info from the dean's office, but they won't even tell us what criteria were used.

you've got to be kidding me, right? you can't be serious.

 

[sacrament]

AOA at my school is a complete joke. I cannot even believe a couple of the people who were elected--there absolutely has to be some covert networking going on. I had no illusions that I'd be elected, regardless of well I did in medical school (and I've done very well). Unfortuately, at many schools AOA is legit and so is the general perception of it, so regardless of how f-ing lame it is here it's still a strike against me.

 

[inositide]

The problem with AOA selection is that there is a certain element of subjectivity to it. The problem happens when the subjective opinion of the mysterious committee members outweighs the objective numbers like grades, board scores, etc. That element de-legitimizes AOA in certain institutions.
However, just remember, not getting AOA does not automatically disqualify you for any residency, especially medicine programs.

 

[zinjanthropus]

furthermore, i absolutely 100% disagree that students should be in any way whatsoever involved in the selection process. that is utterly ludicrous.

Z

I think you are wrong about this. For the rest of our lives it will be our peers and colleagues who judge the work we do and the contributions we make to society and medicine - may as well get used to this during medical school.

 

[jadedbearsprite]

at my school AOA elections are very similar to postme's selection process.

at the end of 3rd year, we are (i think it's everyone in the class) asked to submit our CVs and up to 10 nominations for fellow classmates. 4 students are elected for junior AOA based on "well-roundedness." we are told that in order to be eligible, you must be in the top 25%.

then, early in fourth year as the ERAS stuff is starting, we are asked again to submit CVs and nominations (the interesting thing is that we are not told who is actually in the top 25% so you may select classmates who are not even eligible). at the selection meeting, those in the top 25% will have their CVs read aloud. any AOA member in attendance then has the opportunity to voice support or disapproval. i was told that this is the time when faculty support for an individual makes a big difference, but that is dependent on if you have worked with any faculty who are AOA AND are present at the meeting. i do not know how much weight the nominations from other classmates or from the 4 junior members carry.

i felt like the entire process was up to luck.

 

[Wednesday]

my understanding was that AOA is an ACADEMIC honors society. i mean, there are other honors societies that exist for other purposes like community service (ie: Aesculapians, etc.) .... AOA is supposed to be based on academic merit, that is -- class rank. i believe that should be the primary criterion. i mean, if we're going to bring leadership activities and community service into this, then we're turning this into a high school National Honors Society type of thing.

If you visit the AOA site, you will see that committment to academics as well as community service is emphasized. Making amazing grades is one thing, but making them while juggling other committments is something entirely different.

I agree that it's pretty bad to change the rules in the middle of the process, they should have waited until your class was through (although I agree with whoever said that your school was in danger of having too many people inducted under the old system since only 1/6 of the class can be. Maybe that was the problem). I sort of doubt that you're going to be able to get anything changed now though. Might have to let it go and just be proud of your accomplishments. I imagine that your rank is high, which should help you with those competitive residency interview slots. Good luck.

 

[Zolpidem25]

Might have to let it go and just be proud of your accomplishments. I imagine that your rank is high, which should help you with those competitive residency interview slots. Good luck.

Thanks Wednesday!

🙂