My Take: What adcoms look for and advice for reapplicants

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daelroy

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I'm writing this because I was a reapplicant that did postbacc and was accepted to several MD and DO schools. I called several adcoms and have spoken with many friends who were successfull. I took a very active and agrressive approach to figure out the system. I will share what I have learned. Hopefully this can help some of you.

If you have below a 2.7 or even around a 3.0, a post-bac or Masters is pretty much required if you want to get into an MD school. There comes a point in which you can't significantly raise your GPA regardless of how many classes you take. If you are at 2.7 or a 2.8, the most you can raise your GPA is to a 3.0 or a 3.1.

Also, keep in mind that a 3.0-3.2 is not a strong GPA either especially if you have a lot of W's and few scattered F' and D's in your coursework. If that's the case, then you may consider a postbac or Masters. Adcoms don't want to risk taking a student who has poor study habits. A bad trend in grades or a few scatterred bad grades can hurt you. It's one thing if you are 2.9 GPA is due to consistent B's and a few C's. It's much worse if you have A's and then a few scattered D's, and F's in challenging courses like O-chem.

You have to understand with GPA that's it's not just about the numbers. It's how you achieved your GPA. Adcoms want to see consistency. Dropping hard classes and failing difficult classes while getting A's in a many soft classes will not help you regardless if your GPA is a 3.3-3.4. That is why Postbac or a Masters is necessity for most reapplicants. It's not just about the numbers. These applicants need to start over and show a consistent trend of good grades in many difficult classes over a period of time. Postbacs and hard science Masters can help you demonstrate this trend.

Adcoms look for two things in a candidate: intelligence and work ethic. GPA represents your work ethic and discipline. MCAT scores predicts your IQ, and test taking skills. A high MCAT is important because there is a strong correlation between MCAT scores and board scores. So if a student has a high MCAT, the school knows there is a good chance he or she will do well on the boards and represent the school well. But the school also needs to see that you have the work ethic and discipline to stay the course and not flunk out of medical school. A student with a 34 MCAT and a 2.7 or 3.0 GPA shows he is intelligent but lazy.

A postbac or a Masters can alleviate this situation. I would recommend taking a 2 year postbac or Masters and getting nothing less than a 3.5 GPA and realistically a 3.7 or higher to be competitve. Two years is important because it provides a legitimate and long enough time period to demonstrate that you have improved your study habits. Just doing well in two sememsters is not enough to really convince an adcom that you have changed. Also, you will have to take MS1 type of classes that are offerred in medical school like anatomy, biochemistry, cell biology, histology, genetics, physicolgy etc.

This is also another reason why I don't recommend the MPH because it doesn't offer the same level of difficult classes that most postbacc and hard science Masters programs offers. There are exceptions of course as some MPH programs have excellent reptuations. Adcoms want to see that you can handle the coursework in medical school. An MPH won't tell them that. I think the MPH can help students in other ways but this isn't one of them. The MPH is good for borderline students who need something to spruce up their application and provide them research opportunities that boosts the "extra-curricular" or intagibles portion of their application. I recommend the MPH for those who had strong GPA's but for whatever reason didn't score high enough on the MCAT. You would be suprised because there are a lot of those students. They have a 3.5+ GPA but didn't study for the MCAT and bombed it. Those students basically need a year to retake the MCAT. For those students the MPH can be an excellent thing to take in the time off while prepping for the MCAT. It shows adcoms a couple of things. For one, you are still taking classes so it shows your committment to school. And second, you are still studying in a field that is applicable to medicine so you won't look insincere. But I just don't think it can cure a really low GPA because MPH's in general have a reputation for being rather soft curriculum wise. People respect the MPH for it's research and approach but not necessarily for being a grueling academic program.

You will also need to take the MCAT and get a 30 + to be competitive. For an adcom to go to bat for you in the admissions process, they need something to sell you on. Even with a high postbac GPA, that isn't enough. Schools want their admissions numbers to look good. They know that if they accept a student with a low GPA, it will bring their overall GPA down. Adcoms know that if they are going to take a hit GPA-wise by accepting you, they need something in return like a high MCAT to raise their overall MCAT score. This is part of the politics of the admissions process. So you need to do both by getting a high MCAT and postbac GPA.

Most medical school need at least 2 years of coursework to make up for a bad GPA. That's not always the case as some one year programs have a great reputation but in most cases medical school wants to see 2 consecutive years of strong coursework to convince adcoms that you have changed your ways. As one adcom told me: "Anyone can take 20 hours one semester and get all A's, but can they do that for 2 years; that's the issue we have. " This is why a lot of students just go to the Carribean like Ross and AUC, because they don't want to have to start all over and study for 2 years in a postbac or Masters. In that time, they can already be doing rotations in the United States. I'm not advocating going to the Carribean for medical school but showing you why many elect to do that path. Of course, the Carribean has it's own drawbacks so for some of you, it may be worth doing a year or two if it means you can stay in the U.S. and have a REALISTIC chance of acquiring a competitive and selective specialty or hospital residency. I think a foreign medical school is a fine option if you don't mind doing a primary care field. You can shed years off the application process. However,if you want the comforts of living in the U.S. in addition to being competitive for competitive residencies, the Carriibean may not be the best route.
 
That was an excellent well thought out post!!!!!

Strong Work!!!
 
Pretty much right on. And this is coming from someone who lets just say 'might' know what goes on at adcom meetings 😀

ttac
p.s. Congratulations. I was once a low-gpa reapplicant and after many trials and tribulations I'm now a soon to be 3rd year at Drexel.
 
Thank you so much for your info. I am trying to raise my abysmmal GPA right now.
I have only been taking classes full-time the past year. However, I did really well the last year and a half of undergrad. I was planning on applying this year, provided my MCAT is 29+. Do you think I still need to do another year of post-bacc classes?
 
The "will I get in" folks definitely need to read this one.
 
daelroy,

Thank you for sharing your experience. I too took the long way around, however I did not enroll formally in a post-bac program. In case there are other students like myself who must continue to work full time, please know it can be done. It is not easy, but most definitely possible depending on your local higher educational institutions.
 
bugger said:
Thank you so much for your info. I am trying to raise my abysmmal GPA right now.
I have only been taking classes full-time the past year. However, I did really well the last year and a half of undergrad. I was planning on applying this year, provided my MCAT is 29+. Do you think I still need to do another year of post-bacc classes?

It depends on what you took during that last 1.5 years of undergrad. If they were mostly non-science and easy classes then I would probably enroll in post-bac or a Masters for one year. You wouldn't need two years since you do have a positive trend in grades. I only advocate 2 years for the truly abysmal GPA's and inconsistent performances. Also, remember to call the adcom of the school you are interested in attending. Tell them what you told me. You would be suprised because most of them will advise you on what you should do. If they can't provide an answer, that's usually a good sign meaning your flaws were not so obvious so that they could provide a ready response.
 
Daelroy, thanks for starting this post. It was very helpful to hear how one can build up credibility again through hard work without resorting to sidetracking degrees like MPH. Made me take another look at my undergrad transcript. Rocky start in freshman year (<3.0!) but progressed up to a 3.5-3.7 thereafter. In the end, I came in with a 3.3 overall GPA and graduated with a BA in Econ cum laude from a pedigree school. (Unfortunately I didn't even think of taking any science classes back then. The As were earned mostly outside my major in a foreign language, business/finance or computer science.) So, I have no idea how adcoms would feel about that. And frankly, the damage has been done and I can only look forward. I'm not one to judge others solely on their credentials and hopefully adcoms have the same attitude! So without further ado, onwards with the postbaccs! :luck:
 
Great post thank you for articulating so well the admissions process
 
A nice post that seems to cover all the bases. I chose to take the mph route myself and I'm hoping that the school is rigorous enough (UofMich) and the courses "sciency" enough (hospital and molecular epid) to combine the best of the two worlds covered in the initial post (with the added benefit of being able to take some really usefull stuff on the healthcare system and the like...)
But Medworm, "one can build up credibility again through hard work without resorting to sidetracking degrees like MPH"? I certainly can't speak for everybody, but a lot of people get mph's without "resorting" to a "sidetracking degree". Many, if not most, see the good that the broadening of their education could bring. I've heard it said that some people climb ladders to get where they want to go and others climb jungle gyms. As long as you get to where you want to go, even if it includes some "sidetracking", kudos.
 
DocStretch said:
I've heard it said that some people climb ladders to get where they want to go and other's climb jungle gyms. As long as you get to where you want to go, even if it includes some "sidetracking", kudos.


Well said, DocStretch, well said....

(from another MPHer)
 
what would be better Postbac or a Masters ?
 
Gutierrez001 said:
what would be better Postbac or a Masters ?

For all intensive purposes, many postbacc and Masters are essentially the same. There are strengths and drawbacks to each

Postbacc
Strengths - raise your undergrad GPA. Yes, this helps raise your BCPM, overall and science GPA. Many schools especially state schools have cutoffs and won't accept you if your overall undergrad science GPA is below a 3.0 even if you have a 4.0 Masters GPA.

Weakness - you don't get a degree out of it or if you do it is a "certificate" or a bachelors degree. Neither degree will really help you get a real job. You may get a job as a lab tech making barely above minimum wage but not the type of job you could get with an MPH or a Masters.

Curriculum-wise, they are almost identical so a lot of times, it's a matter of playing the political game and see what helps you.

I would recommend a Masters over a postbacc provided that they have the same MS1 type of curriculum. The only exception is if your science GPA is below a 3.0 then I would do postbac because a Masters won't get your foot in the door. Also, look at the medical schools you want to attend. Many times those schools have an associated postbac or Masters that they give preference......read ADMISSION....if you get above a certain GPA and your MCAT meets their competitive average which will vary from school to school. For example, if I want to go to Daelroy Medical College and they have a postbac that is affiliated with the school, then I will enroll in their postbac since you will have the inside connection. I won't get a Masters at another school if I want to attend Daelroy. So it depends. Some schools will call their postbac a "postbac" and others will call their program a "Masters." Whatever it takes to get you into the medical school is the most important thing. Don't worry about an MPH or a Masters helping you match for a residency down the line. Because in most cases, an MPH and a Masters will not help you secure that orthopedic surgical residency or that urology residency. The exception is a Ph.D. Having a PhD particualry in the field you are interested in will help immensely. There are the exceptions with your Masters degree as well. If you did you Masters thesis on cardiac science and you applied for a cardiology fellowship down the line, it would certainly help you. But in general, residency directors aren't going to bend over backwards for you simply because you have a Masters so it's not like it wil give you a real edge. But it may be nice to have if you don't get in and you need a year to work. Your USMLE step 1 scores, clinical grades and class rank will be the most important factors to securing your choice of residency; it's not going to be dependent upon if you have another degree like an MPH or an MS. A PhD however will raise eyebrows but even your average PhD candidate will not be helped by his degree if his other numbers (Step 1, class rank etc) are lacking.

This brings up another point. Some of the less well known postbacc and Masters are better than the more well known ones because those programs are smaller and more intimate with their associated school. You won't deal with large volume of cutthroat students that the more well known programs like Harvard Extension school is know for. You will have to do your homework to locate these programs because not too many may know of them since they could be new and you could be lucky and be in one of their first classes. A lot of medical schools are introducing postbac programs now so call around and see if a medical school has an affiliated postbac program. That's how these programs get started. The first couple of postbac classes to graduate from their program reaped the rewards. They don't deal with a lot of competition and because medical schools want to promote their postbac, they heavily admit their first couple of classes to get the word out. So do your homework if any new postbac/masters programs have risen in your area.
 
Well, what if i dont know what school i want to attended? What would be a better choice for me to do?? 😕
 
daelroy said:
It depends on what you took during that last 1.5 years of undergrad. If they were mostly non-science and easy classes then I would probably enroll in post-bac or a Masters for one year.

Quick question daelray et al,
My alma mater had advanced science courses alongside the regular ones. The advanced ones were taken in place of the intro's and had about 1/10th the number in the regular classes. Also, you had to 'qualify' achievement-wise to take these courses and the proffs told you right at the beginning that grading in the classes were bad .They actually said premeds concerned abot grades should go with the regular intro, which most did.
If I took these courses and got scattered B's/C's here but good grades elsewhere, do I need to give this kind of explanation or should I trust the adcoms will notice from the transcripts that these were advanced classes? I'm asking coz I don't know where I would do this explaining. I already have a really good ps writen out and I don't know if I should alter it so I can include this kind of explanation. Thanks alot.
 
DocStretch said:
But Medworm, "one can build up credibility again through hard work without resorting to sidetracking degrees like MPH"? I certainly can't speak for everybody, but a lot of people get mph's without "resorting" to a "sidetracking degree". Many, if not most, see the good that the broadening of their education could bring. I've heard it said that some people climb ladders to get where they want to go and others climb jungle gyms. As long as you get to where you want to go, even if it includes some "sidetracking", kudos.

Hey guys. Guess I should have qualified what I meant by sidetracking. The track really depends on the person's background and area of interest.

Take my case - I have no science background and am just itching to get through the prereqs asap to be eligible for the MCATs. So folks like me should just concentrate on getting good grades and some basic volunteer/research experience.

For those who are a bit further ahead w/the prereqs and would like to help shape the industry through a more fiduciary than direct-care role, then MPH is great for exposure to all aspects of the industry.

To each his (her) own. The paths are out there. Just pick the one that fits you best. 😀
 
Daelroy, I read your posts and most of the other responses to it and found it to be extremely helpful, informative and most of all motivational. I was wondering if you or anyone could give me some advice on my current situation.

I just graduated with my BA in Psychology and have decided to change my path of study towards Psychiatry instead. However, I have not taken the science classes neccesary to even start this process. My GPA is not impressive I have a 3.3 because of one really bad semester. I was wondering what steps I need to take in order to take the science classes and start my way into preparing for the MCATs. I want to know if I would be able to raise my GPA through post bac and was curious when you mentioned getting a MA, what specific program or specific study the MA would be in? Please let me know what you think I should do it would be greatly appreciated.
 
This thread is over 4 years old. Some of the original posters may not be around anymore.

You are also not a reapplicant.

Here's the general advice for someone switching gears with a somewhat low gpa.

You need to take the prereqs and do really well. Shoot for a 4.0.
Take fewer credits if needed, but try for all A's.
When you are done with the prereqs, calc your overall and science gpa.
If either are lower than 3.5, you probably still need to do some more work. Maybe another year or two of upper level science classes. If you decide to do a master's, go for a SMP, that will be most helpful.

Check out the nontrad and MCAT forums for advice on those topics.
 
what are the chances of a low GPA student of even getting into post-bacc/ masters program though?

I've researched and many Masters programs want at least like a 3.0 GPA even though I know some may be under that Average..

I feel like individuals with below a 3.0 are screwed 🙁 is that true..🙁
 
Well, if the "low" GPA is 2.9 overall with an upward trend, and you get a good MCAT score, then I think some postbacs would take you. But if you have a 2.0 and then make a 20 on the MCAT I think you are hosed. It's actually in your interests, because it wouldn't be nice of them to take your tuition money if you had little chance of getting in to med school later.
 
I feel like individuals with below a 3.0 are screwed 🙁 is that true..🙁

Usually we recommend that these pre-meds take post-bac classes until they've raised their GPA to at least 3.0, then consider an SMP.

Or if you're also considering DO, then retake your worst classes to really help your GPA.
 
Nice post! It would be comprehensive if it addressed adcoms' views of re-applicant issues outside of numbers, though. For example, it doesn't seem as if an additional year of clinical/volunteering experience is all that it's cracked out to be. What do adcoms find missing in applications with decent numbers (outside of obvious red flags such as bad LORs or an applicant who's a jerk)? I know that my numbers are fine, but here I am, a re-applicant nevertheless. Apparently there was something wrong with the less-quantitative portion of my application.
 
fizzle, if your numbers were just average for the schools you applied to, then realize that there were probably others with similar stats to the "average" accepted applicant who also didn't get in. If you got <6 interviews then you need to work on getting more. If you got 6 or more and still no admission, then I would worry that maybe you aren't coming across well during the interviews. There is definitely an element of crapshoot and politics to the admissions process. Not getting in once isn't the kiss of death. You may not need to overanalyze things, but you do have to show that you did something in the past 1 year to improve your application. If you don't get in twice even though your numbers look fine and you have relevant volunteer experience, then I would wonder what is going on. Do you freeze up and get too nervous during interviews, or did someone write a lukewarm LOR, etc.

You may need to get better LORs and/or a different LOR to add to those you have. You could perhaps do that by getting even more volunteer experience and/or research experience. Also, you need to apply to a lot of schools (like 30 or something) if you didn't do that the first year. It is worth the extra money if you didn't get in the first time and feel that your application is competitive.
 
It's worth noting that GPA and MCAT is not everything, however much emphasis people put on it. I had stellar numbers, but still did not get in. Your experience in the medical field, your knowledge of what being a doctor entails, and what you were doing while achieving your GPA and MCAT are also important. Those with low stats, but have the background necessary to prove that this is the right path for them may have an up on those with high stats, but lacking the numbers.

Of course, those with high stats and the background are going to be favored most of all, so it's best to get as much as you can in to beat the admissions process.
 
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