My thoughts on "DO bad business decision" thread - objectively

[Shaniqua14]

Advertisement - Members don't see this ad

The thread I referenced started cohesively & logically with the OP's question, but decompensated afterwards.

I hope the mods don't close my thread, because I would like to offer my thoughts.

Any DO will always know that there is a pre-med, med student, attending, medical director out there, that think we are less than equal. Its their problem.

I draw an analogy to one of my best friends, who is African American. He says, "Yes, there is still racism out there. That some whites think they are superior. Too bad for them. It's their problem. I refuse to pay attention. I'm happy. My life is good."

I am not trying to bring race into the DO/MD discussion, but my friend's comment came to my mind.

I personally was accepted into both MD and DO programs. I am electing to attend Nova. Does this decision lower my IQ? Lower my MCAT score? Absolutely not. An "idiot" is an "idiot" with an MD or DO... a person of intelligence is the same, regardless of any initials.

While I understand that it may limit my chances of becoming a dermatologist or orthopedist... big deal. MANY people are not going to get into a competitive residency, regardless if they are an MD or DO.

I want to go into primary care. Speaking of which... I work with a primary care practice, 3 M.D.'s and 2. D.O.'s... all 5 of them have so many patients they can't accept any new ones, and make 250K a year (they are the busiest practice in my entire state).

Its a true story: DO... primary care... quarter million / year.

The only thing I see between the doctors is teamwork, never negativity. And the only thing I hear the DO's being called by patients is "doctor," as in "Thanks Doc, you really helped me!"

Sidebar-- I hope to never see a person with special needs EVER called a "******" again in the DO forum. As a sibling of someone with cerebral palsy,reading that made me nauseous. My brother is happier, more awesome, and more determined than I will ever be. I was more proud of his graduation from high school than I will be when I become a doctor. If you don't want to be that person's "buddy" b/c of the mutual enjoyment over icecream (or however SickofLaw stated it), fine. Let him/her share their true friendship with someone more worthy. And remember, you & all of us, could have been just one base pair away in our genetic makeup from being a person with a disability.... so be thankful for what you have, not make fun of others for what you think they don't.

Finally... I am not going to refute some of the statements SickofLaw made is his final tirade of a post... I do believe DO is a back up for some applicants. That's fine. To each their own.

What I think needs to be made clear, is that we are going to be successful as DOs.

The SDNers that are accepted for August 2008- get excited!!- its going to rock-- we are going to learn awesome new things while striving for a huge goal. I can't wait😀 And the others who are applying or getting ready to apply -- good luck!

To ya'll : Thanks for listening to me. I really felt the need to start this thread and write this post. Much appreciation.

 

[nascardoc]

Very nicely said....Bravo!!!

 

[Marthea007]

Two things.
1. Lets be friends.
2. Where are these FP DO's practicing because that's what I want to do and apparently I need to be there!

 

[countthestars]

.

 

[SickOfLaw]

NOTE TO MODERATORS - THIS IS NOT A MD VS DO THREAD. IT'S A DISCUSSION OF THE PUBLIC'S PERCEPTION OF OSTEOPATHIC DOCTORS.

Any DO will always know that there is a pre-med, med student, attending, medical director out there, that think we are less than equal. Its their problem.

You miss the point. It's not the pre-meds, med students, attendings, and medical directors you need to be worried about. They don't pay your salary in private practice. The patients pay your salary (via the insurance companies.) Lower numbers of patients equals lower compensation, and while DO schools are comparable in cost to MD schools, it's a foolish business decision to attend a DO program over an MD program. Not a foolish medical decision, a foolish business decision. My original post - which almost every single person misread - concerned the public perception of DOs, and whether this will hamper your chances of succeeding in private practice.

I personally was accepted into both MD and DO programs. I am electing to attend Nova. Does this decision lower my IQ? Lower my MCAT score? Absolutely not. An "idiot" is an "idiot" with an MD or DO... a person of intelligence is the same, regardless of any initials.

Again, attending a DO program doesn't make you an idiot in the eyes of the medical profession. But for as long as DOs have a public reputation as being "not real doctors", it's a business problem for the DO profession. Again, it's not what other doctors think that's important. The problem is what the patients think.

While I understand that it may limit my chances of becoming a dermatologist or orthopedist... big deal. MANY people are not going to get into a competitive residency, regardless if they are an MD or DO.

Off topic, but it's undeniable that MDs have a better chance of obtaining spots in competitive residencies.

I want to go into primary care. Speaking of which... I work with a primary care practice, 3 M.D.'s and 2. D.O.'s... all 5 of them have so many patients they can't accept any new ones, and make 250K a year (they are the busiest practice in my entire state).

Its a true story: DO... primary care... quarter million / year.

Which has the same weight as my true story: DO... primary care... patients prefer the MDs... DO sits in office doodling on a notepad while waiting for patients while the other MDs have waitlists.

The only thing I see between the doctors is teamwork, never negativity.

It's not about the doctors. It's about the patients.

Finally... I am not going to refute some of the statements SickofLaw made is his final tirade of a post... I do believe DO is a back up for some applicants. That's fine. To each their own.

I dare someone to refute those comments. Backed up with data, of course. Not "my dad's friend is a DO and had an MCAT of 38 and makes a billion dollars a year."

Perhaps it's time to really talk openly and honestly about this instead of hiding behind "everyone's equal" and "we'll all be great doctors"?

What I think needs to be made clear, is that we are going to be successful as DOs.

Er, I guess not then.

At least have the common sense to recognize that DOs are still considered to be on the margins of modern medicine BY THE GENERAL PUBLIC. Not by the medical profession, but BY THE GENERAL PUBLIC. And this will make it more difficult to obtain patients in a private setting unless you go to a market where there are not enough MDs.

The cheerleading and head-in-the-clouds denial of the mountains of evidence really doesn't work. Ignoring the facts doesn't make them magically disappear.

Sorry, but I stand by what I said before. DO might equal MD for medical purposes, but for business purposes, DO most certainly does not equal MD, and it won't equal MD until the average guy on the street knows exactly what a DO does.

 

[Thantis]

Hell, Dr. 90210 is a DO and he famous and rich. People don't care he has a DO degree. He does, however, have something that most doctors don't have, and that is his ability to market himself.

He is an MD (source: http://www.drrobertrey.com/pages/cirriculm.html). But I agree with your statement. Developing a good reputation, working hard, selling yourself and your skills, and being people friendly whilst holding a modicum of understanding what makes people tick...that I believe is a good recipe for success in the medical profession.

 

[Marthea007]

The cheerleading and head-in-the-clouds denial of the mountains of evidence really doesn't work. Ignoring the facts doesn't make them magically disappear.

Sorry, but I stand by what I said before. DO might equal MD for medical purposes, but for business purposes, DO most certainly does not equal MD, and it won't equal MD until the average guy on the street knows exactly what a DO does.

I would be more inclined to believe you if you could give me more proof than your own personal opinion and anecdotal stories.

 

[SickOfLaw]

To put things in perspective, some of richest and greatest CEOs of our time were college drop outs. For example, Steve Jobs only sent one semester in Reeds College before dropping out and look at him now. He has runs one of the most successful companies in the world. The same can be said about Bill Gates. I think we all know he dropped outta harvard. My point is that it wasn't the degrees of these people that set them apart, its how hard they worked, their business mind and their people skills that made them successful. I think this applies really well to a successful private practice physician. As long as you can sell yourself, you will be fine. Hell, Dr. 90210 is a DO and he famous and rich. People don't care he has a DO degree. He does, however, have something that most doctors don't have, and that is his ability to market himself.

Sorry dude, but a couple of exceptions doesn't break a general rule. If your analysis is correct, then every Harvard dropout will be wildly successful. They aren't. They're college dropouts and shut out of almost every job that requires, as a basic qualification, a degree.

Same for Dr. 90210. He's famous and rich because he is on television, not because he has a crazy successful practice. He's not marketing his services as a surgeon. He's marketing the opportunity to be on television.

(Oddly, why does it seem to be the DOs who end up on the sleazy side of medical TV? Dr. 90210, who sold out his medical career for a cable show. And the "doctors" who sell those weight loss herbs on television? Yup, all DOs.)

Here's where I stand, and where most of the general public stands. You said:

My point is that it wasn't the degrees of these people that set them apart, its how hard they worked, their business mind and their people skills that made them successful.

Getting a great MCAT score takes hard work. Getting a great GPA takes hard work. So why do DO applicants have lower MCATs and GPAs? They didn't work as hard. (The alternative, of course, is that they're less intelligent, but that statement causes problems on this board.)

So you claim that DOs, who clearly had trouble working as hard as MDs during undergrad, will suddenly shake those lazy habits off after med school and suddenly learn to apply themselves properly and be as successful as MDs?

Sorry. Not buying it.

 

[countthestars]

.

 

[SickOfLaw]

I would be more inclined to believe you if you could give me more proof than your own personal opinion and anecdotal stories.

No. This is the ultimate "trick" that DOs pull. They don't present irrefutable evidence to support their argument and stop the discussions once and for all.

Instead, they simply say "prove it!", thus avoiding having to prove anything themselves. Like those weird people who believe in creationism - their main argument is that nobody can prove that creationism isn't real. But that in itself doesn't demonstrate that evolution is a bunch of crap.

Marthea007: I asked you to prove it. Point me to ONE - yes, just ONE - study that demonstrates that DOs are not at any disadvantage whatsoever when it comes to getting good residency training. Point me to one study that shows DO pay in private practice is equal to MD pay. Point me to one study that says the general public thinks DOs are equal to MDs (or even that the general public knows what a DO is).

 

[Doc Henry]

He is an MD (source: http://www.drrobertrey.com/pages/cirriculm.html). But I agree with your statement. Developing a good reputation, working hard, selling yourself and your skills, and being people friendly whilst holding a modicum of understanding what makes people tick...that I believe is a good recipe for success in the medical profession.

I think he was referring to Dr Will Kirby who is a DO

 

[SickOfLaw]

wrong. You are assuming DOs want to go to allopathic residencies. For Derm, ortho, ENT, Gas, there are OSTOPAHTIC ONLY residencies that ONLY OSTEOPATHS CAN APPLY TO. Let me give you some links so you can be more informed. Osto Derm- http://www.aocd.org/ Osto Ortho- http://www.aoao.org/ Osto ENT - http://www.aocoohns.org/ Osto Gas - http://www.aocaonline.org/ MDS CANNOT APPLY TO THESE...

Er, all you've proven is that DOs have so little chance of competing with MDs for allopathic competitive residencies that they had to level the playing field by playing protectionist and keeping MDs out of certain DO residencies.

Yeah, great argument. "DOs are as competitive as MDs for competitive residencies because DOs have their own special residencies that MDs can't apply for."

BTW, explain to me how a DO gas residency is different from a MD gas residency. Do you guys "fiddle" with the patients while they're unconscious?

 

[countthestars]

.

 

[SickOfLaw]

your not worth my time, can this tread please be closed?

Oh Sickoflaw, I went to an ivy league, I graduated Magna Cum Laude (Neurobio major), I was an Intel Westinghouse award winner in high school and I have 2 national publications in clinical Neuroscience research, are you really implying I am inferior because I am applying to a DO school?

NOT AT ALL. Are you deliberately failing to understand this thread?

I don't think you're inferior.

The average guy on the street doesn't know what you do as a DO. The average guy on the street thinks DOs are bone-crackers or eye doctors or practice some kind of "weird" medicine.

That's all you should take away from this thread. Your future patients don't know what you are, and your future patients do know what an MD is.

That's the disadvantage.

 

[Shaniqua14]

SickofLaw: Did I not make myself clear in my opening post?

The 5 doctors I work with, 3 M.D.s and 2 D.O.s, ALL have completely booked schedules every day, and all five of them make 250K a year. There is no "D.O. note pad doodling," he's too busy buying his wife an Escalade in his spare time 😀

I know my own experience is anecdotal, but it illustrated how SickofLaw's generalizations about D.O.'s in business were incorrect.

Also, I am not going to deny that MD's > DO's likely have a better chance at gaining entrance into competitive specialties. (I said likely, because I am not in med school yet, and don't want to comment on something I haven't experienced).

Until I see raw, statistical data that proves DO's in private practice cannot make as much money as MD's, I'm not going to believe its valid. And then I still won't care.

Finally.... how do you know how the general public feels about DO's? Was there a mass study done? All I know is that anyone who is not a practicing physician (myself included) really can't answer to this question. All I can say, is from shadowing the DO for over a year in that "busiest clinic in the state"-- the 1000 or so patients I've seen with him so far, not a single one has said anything to me besides, "This doc is awesome. Listen closely to learn a lot from him," which I've heard over and over again.

So as I gear up for my M1 year... what will stick in my mind, are the awesome patient-doctor interactions I experienced with the DO, and not a random pre-med on SDN with his opinions stated as facts... who, as soon as he used the pathetic "r"word, lost all validity to any of his comments.

 

[Thantis]

I think he was referring to Dr Will Kirby who is a DO

Ah ok, I had googled Dr. 90210 and he was the one I got (and I recognized from seeing him before in commercials or something...don't really watch TV except to catch the rare movie).


As to SickofLaw, before a mod closes this thread (its going to happen sooner or later with your vitriolic demeanor), it is clearly obvious to the majority of us who read these forums that you have an agenda. My belief is that if I go either way (MD or DO) that I will get a good education and that it is incumbent upon me to study hard, thus determining a favorable outcome for my future. It is also my experience with talking to MDs and DOs alike that the initials do not matter, but rather it is the residency and the hard work that you put into your profession that is of the utmost importance. Your previously mentioned case of the pediatrician who did not have a waiting list can be considered an isolated case or even a minority at best. Making assumptions, taking anecdotal evidence, and just focusing on one factor in explaining such a dilemma that the pediatrician faces is a fool's errand. Nothing in this world can be completely explained with one cause. Most things have a multi-factorial cause to them.

If you have nothing positive to say, and are not going to contribute to this debate in a positive manner (completely opposite of your scathing criticisms and tripe), then DON'T SAY ANYTHING.

 

[J1515]

(Oddly, why does it seem to be the DOs who end up on the sleazy side of medical TV? Dr. 90210, who sold out his medical career for a cable show. And the "doctors" who sell those weight loss herbs on television? Yup, all DOs.)

What about ColdMD?

Oh, and this http://www.4extenze.com/what_doctors_are_saying.html

Busted! lol

 

[J1515]

Point me to one study that shows DO pay in private practice is equal to MD pay.

Simple. DOs circle the same billing codes as MDs. You'll see that once you actually get accepted to a medical school

 

[scotchtapetest]

Sorry dude, but a couple of exceptions doesn't break a general rule. If your analysis is correct, then every Harvard dropout will be wildly successful. They aren't. They're college dropouts and shut out of almost every job that requires, as a basic qualification, a degree.

Same for Dr. 90210. He's famous and rich because he is on television, not because he has a crazy successful practice. He's not marketing his services as a surgeon. He's marketing the opportunity to be on television.

(Oddly, why does it seem to be the DOs who end up on the sleazy side of medical TV? Dr. 90210, who sold out his medical career for a cable show. And the "doctors" who sell those weight loss herbs on television? Yup, all DOs.)

You need to make up your mind about medicine. Is it a business or a profession? Do you get in it because you love it or because you want to make lot of money?
As I recall you said being a DO is a "bad business" decision, now you're complaining about DOs who made "good business" decisions…
Ever heard of Dr. Robert Jarvik? Look him up! He has a MD degree and he is as sleazy as it gets!
Also last time I checked there is no difference in salaries for DOs and MDs! I believe AOA will go nuts if they can substantiate your claims!

 

[Shaniqua14]

Umm...

Besides SickofLaw... I think the rest of the people who has posted on this thread are either IN medical school or ACCEPTED to medical school.

Pretty cool guys. Congrats to us future doctors!

Go away little, non-doctor buddy.

 

[J1515]

Umm...

Besides SickofLaw... I think the rest of the people who has posted on this thread are either IN medical school or ACCEPTED to medical school.

Pretty cool guys. Congrats to us future doctors!

Go away little, non-doctor buddy.

Yeah but he has nearly a 4.0 GPA, is planning on acing the MCAT and is scheduled to shadow 3 doctors this summer!!

 

[spicedmanna]

While I appreciate some of the comments presented, this thread is in response to a closed one, which is generally non-productive at best. There was a reason why the previous thread was closed.

Anyway, I'm afraid I'll have to close this one, with the caution to not start any more new threads that extend closed ones. Thanks.