My "what would YOU do?" question...

[RayneeDeigh]

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Hey everyone. Been a while since I made a thread. I was kind of avoiding making this one 'cause you'd think I could make my own decisions at this point, but after a week of contemplating, I'm still undecided. So... help a girl out?

Background: my UG thesis has absolutely nothing to do with what my grad research is going to be. I'm looking forward to September because I'll be able to start my own projects. A year ago when my advisor asked me to pick a thesis topic, I was unsure how much flexibility there was so I picked a topic that I knew was close to her heart because I thought that would make it easier for her to give me guidance about it. It's an interesting topic and everything, but not my thing.

Problem: my advisor has requested that I work this summer to change the thesis into a manuscript... but this is no easy task. You see, she wants to run more studies to supplement my existing research. I will be out-of-province for grad school but I'm pretty sure she wants me to stay involved in the project. It won't be submitted for publication until 9 months from now at the very earliest. This summer I'm supposed to conduct more lit reviews, revise the manuscript to reflect the upcoming Study 2, and do some more statistical analyses. I thought I would be excited to get work done this summer but as it becomes evident that my heart really isn't in it, I'm starting to wonder what's more important. Should I be giving up my summer of work-free existence in exchange for a possible first-name publication down the road, or should I bow out? Is that bad form, saying that I don't think I can contribute much more to the project?

I always thought that students abandoned their UG work in favour of graduate school later. I'm not sure that I could juggle the two. Am I just being a whiner? lol

 

[Ollie123]

Hard to say. More pubs never hurt. Then again, it might not help much either. One thing to ask is HOW involved they want you to be? Are they asking you to drop by a few hours a week to do this, or are we talking 40 hours a week?

You could also mention you want to stay involved but can't commit more time, and maybe drop to 2nd or 3rd author (which is still nothing to sneeze at as an undergrad!).

I'd do it if it were me, but I'm not you. If you don't want to, I highly doubt this will have any serious adverse effects later in life. You might enjoy it more than you think though and being a part of this process could help you out when you get to grad school too!

Wish I could give you something more definitive, but its not an easy question😉

 

[psychanon]

Do it!! What else are you going to do this summer-- watch that pirate reality show?

Honestly, it doesn't sound like that much work. Wait until grad school-- you'll have to do that much work in a week. I bet you can get it done by the end of the summer, easy. Getting a first author publication out of it is a huge pay-off! Do it!

 

[GiantSteps]

Tell the professor that you will work on it and do what you can. If there is lefttover by the time you go to graduate school, the professor will have to finish the work. I am sure that in the end your professor will give you recognition.

Besides, if you need more time just take some time away from: eating icecream, making sock puppets (HEY What happened to my order?🙁), coloring your hair, playing your instruments, getting tattoes, down loading free TV shows, and all the other cool 😎 stuff you find time to do! Oh, I forgot. How much time do you spend SDNing? And it's not as if you Canadians have anything to waste time celebrating over aftering losing your precious, highly coveted, Hockey Stanley Cup to a bunch of Californians - Surfs Up Dude! I know you hate hockey but California and the Stanley Cup?

Another thought: maybe you can farm some of the work out to Paris Hilton. She will be at home with nothing to do for a while. "I love Paris in the Summer"! 😍

 

[perfektspace]

Absolutely do it!

It's a great learning experience and confidence booster going into grad school to have completed a manuscript as the primary author (even if it doesn't get published right away). I was able to do this junior/senior year and it was well worth the effort. The editing aspect alone was a great experience and gaining insight into the review process not to mention the stats application. If that's all you are going to be doing as far as work this summer it won't be overwhelming. Especially considering you have already done what closely amounts to a lit review with your UG thesis.

The movies are all crap this summer anyways. 😴

 

[RayneeDeigh]

Alright, thanks guys, I appreciate the input!

I'm just burned out and worried about how I'm going to get ready to move and spend time with my mom before I leave, if I'm doing work. I've been having stress-related health issues lately but I guess now is as good a time as any to figure out how to deal with it. I'd be disappointed in myself if I didn't do it, so I'll just suck it up.

I'll just tell her that I definitely won't be able to continue working on it after the summer. I think she had wanted me to present at conferences while I'm in grad school but I'm not sure.

I think my problem is that she gave me a list of what I have to do this week and when I looked at it I realized I don't know how to do ANY of it. It's really depressing to realize two days after graduation that you know nothing. haha.

 

[JockNerd]

To what degree does the prof want you to play around with lit. reviews and analysis? I hope she isn't trying out new justifications and analyses just to see if something works better. 😕 Maybe she should just re-run the study if it needs some huge degree of rework.

AND she wants you to present it?? She must think you're fantastic. Realistically, I think you'll be busy enough establishing yourself in your own field of interest once you're in grad school.

 

[Baloo]

I had a professor who would black mail me with letters of recommendation if i didn't do the work he wanted to have completed in his lab. I also had the chance to make my honors thesis in undergrad a manuscript, but the amount of work it took to do it was ridiculous, especially since I was already burnt out. I decided not to continue with it since I wanted to be well rested and ready for grad school. Needless, to say I had to get a new letter of rec writer since I decided not to follow through with what my professor had wanted. I think he ended up taking on my thesis and converted it to a manuscript. I sure hope that he put me as first or second author.

In essence, I would not want to burn myself out before I begin graduate school. Undergrad is already over and it is impressive enough that as an undergrad you did your own research and thesis. I say ENJOY your summer stress free; who knows the next time you'll get the summer off!

Good Luck on your decision.

 

[ny1020]

I would try to find a way to do the work for your prof without giving up everything you were looking forward to doing this summer.

For me, spending time with my mom would be a top priority also. So maybe set an hour limit - like give your prof 20-25 hours a week and be clear with her about that.

I just gave a friend advice about relaxing the summer before starting college, because she has time to get internships and experience...no point in starting college all burned out. I think the same holds true for grad school.

 

[psychanon]

Well, don't destroy your health or anything, but I still think you should do it-- trust me, this will still be the easiest summer of your next five years, even with this work. You could probably work 10 hrs a week and get all this done-- leaving plenty of time to enjoy the summer.

I think she had wanted me to present at conferences while I'm in grad school but I'm not sure.

If you can, I'd go for this too. I'm sure it's not conferences, as presenting the same work at more than one conference is bad form. If she's talking a poster presentation, it's really not too much work, and you can get it done before you start. I did a poster for the RA job I had pre-grad school that I presented in the fall of my first year of grad school, and I had it all done and printed out before the end of the summer (which I was definitely relieved about later). Your future department may even fund travel to the conference (even if you did the research somewhere else), which means a free trip (you can just stand in front of your poster for an hour or two and then spend the rest of the time enjoying the destination)!

Just be clear with your advisor that once you start grad school, your grad work is going to have to be top priority. I'm sure she'll understand, and you can work it out so that you can make your contributions before then.

But maybe you should take a vacation or something before you do anything else. 😎

 

[perfektspace]

I think my problem is that she gave me a list of what I have to do this week and when I looked at it I realized I don't know how to do ANY of it. It's really depressing to realize two days after graduation that you know nothing. haha.

I wouldn't worry about not knowing how to do certain things. I felt the same way with some of the more advanced stats. You can collaborate with your prof. and let him or her handle certain things and still end up 1st author. If it's your creativity that brought about the research then hopefully you will be recognized for your hard work. Either way its a great accomplishment and much deserved after all the hard work to go the extra step, if possible, this summer without driving yourself crazy.🙂

 

[Duckygirl]

Do it!! What else are you going to do this summer-- watch that pirate reality show?

Honestly, it doesn't sound like that much work. Wait until grad school-- you'll have to do that much work in a week. I bet you can get it done by the end of the summer, easy. Getting a first author publication out of it is a huge pay-off! Do it!

I say go for it. I think psychanon's happy little smiley face says it all.

 

[RayneeDeigh]

The other night I sat in front of my computer with SPSS open and was determined to figure this stuff out. A few tears and lots of printer paper later, I think I got it. I can't interpret the damn results for the additional analyses, but at least they're on paper now. I just have to wait for my advisor to email me and tell me what to do next.

And that pirate reality show kicks butt!

 

[psychwanabe]

Maybe you've already made your decision and moved on, but I have a different perspective than others who've already posted. My advice is to say no, or to set MAJOR boundaries with what you will do.

I had the same issue: a professor wanted me to stay around this summer and help with other research in her lab. I said no, and used the excuse of having to prepare for grad school and getting some work done around my home since I know I'll never get it done after August. All of these things are true, but the bigger reason is that I am burnt out and need some time to turn my brain off.

I don't know about the rest of you, but my senior year was intense. I really need this time off to recharge my batteries and get ready for the treadmill to come. Grad school is not a sprint: it's a marathon, and if you don't pace yourself, you'll have more trouble reaching the end.

The pubs are nice, but if you're doing your job in grad school you will get them there: sooner does not necessarily mean better.

~my two cents

 

[RayneeDeigh]

Maybe you've already made your decision and moved on, but I have a different perspective than others who've already posted. My advice is to say no, or to set MAJOR boundaries with what you will do.

I had the same issue: a professor wanted me to stay around this summer and help with other research in her lab. I said no, and used the excuse of having to prepare for grad school and getting some work done around my home since I know I'll never get it done after August. All of these things are true, but the bigger reason is that I am burnt out and need some time to turn my brain off.

I don't know about the rest of you, but my senior year was intense. I really need this time off to recharge my batteries and get ready for the treadmill to come. Grad school is not a sprint: it's a marathon, and if you don't pace yourself, you'll have more trouble reaching the end.

The pubs are nice, but if you're doing your job in grad school you will get them there: sooner does not necessarily mean better.

~my two cents

Thanks for the input!

I definitely tend to agree with you on this... I think the other SDN'ers must be superhuman to not need breaks, and I'm definitely jealous. I've kind of settled on a happy medium. I was going to say no before doing any more work, but I think now after reading replies, that the SPSS stuff would be good experience. I plan to take care of that and the revision of the manuscript as it is now. I definitely can't handle doing Study 2 and I'm not comfortable taking time away from my grad courses to go to a conference to present research I'm not interested in. I'm going to tell my advisor that I will do some work on it until the end of July and then I'm going to have to pass the torch. I haven't even had time to read a novel in over a year and I really need that mental separation from school for a month or so. It may mean that I don't have that "star quality" that a lot of psych grad students have, but at least I'll have my sanity.

So everybody helped a lot. 🙂 Now with my compromise I probably won't be first author, but I'll be second and will have reached what I hope is a useful balance between gaining experience and saving time for myself.

 

[psychwanabe]

I haven't even had time to read a novel in over a year and I really need that mental separation from school for a month or so. It may mean that I don't have that "star quality" that a lot of psych grad students have, but at least I'll have my sanity.

😱 No novels in a YEAR??!! I can't even imagine! I've gone whole quarters without novels of my own choosing, but that was when I was taking lit courses, so I'd read Frankenstein or The Souls of Black Folk or somesuch.

Life is too short not to read for pleasure! 😛 I graduated last weekend and now I'm reading the Harry Potters from the beginning to prepare for book #7. Oh, and sleeping. A lot.

 

[psychanon]

The other night I sat in front of my computer with SPSS open and was determined to figure this stuff out. A few tears and lots of printer paper later, I think I got it. I can't interpret the damn results for the additional analyses, but at least they're on paper now. I just have to wait for my advisor to email me and tell me what to do next.

And that pirate reality show kicks butt!

RayneeDeigh, feel free to post if you have any questions about how to do the analyses--- maybe we can help.

 

[Ollie123]

Raynee - sounds like quite the reasonable compromise, and definitely gives you more time to relax this summer🙂

Part of my ability to not need a break is due to having a job that doesn't require much effort. If you slack off all year, the occasional intellectual endeavor like writing a paper would be a pleasant vacation from sitting around the lab doing mind-numbing tasks where the only real input variable is time. If you're at a school that is challenging you I can definitely see the need to unwind a bit before grad school.

Best of luck with the analyses. What are you trying to do that was giving you problems? (in general terms, don't want anyone stealing your hard work!) The fact that you are doing your own analyses at all as an undergrad is mighty impressive, most of the "senior theses" I saw were either largely descriptive stats, or they had a prof or grad student walking them through the analysis step by step.

 

[RayneeDeigh]

RayneeDeigh, feel free to post if you have any questions about how to do the analyses--- maybe we can help.

Thank you, I'll definitely keep that in mind if my advisor's explanation confuses me (and it likely will!)

Best of luck with the analyses. What are you trying to do that was giving you problems? (in general terms, don't want anyone stealing your hard work!) The fact that you are doing your own analyses at all as an undergrad is mighty impressive, most of the "senior theses" I saw were either largely descriptive stats, or they had a prof or grad student walking them through the analysis step by step.

Well... I was taking data based on four categories and trying to put them into two dimensions to match a different model, and then was testing three hypotheses using regressions but they don't appear to have come out the way I expected they would based on how the first model worked. So the only real difficulty right now is figuring out what the next step in the analysis should be which is why I'm waiting on my advisor to look at my big stack 'o SPSS output. I'm barely smart enough to find my way through a regression so it's hard not to get discouraged but then I just keep in mind that three years ago I wouldn't have known what a regression even was.



On a different note, I really hate how some researchers discard whatever data doesn't agree with their hypotheses. When I was working on my presentation for a conference in May people kept telling me just to "not mention" the tests I ran that didn't work out. I know it's really common in the field for the sake of simplicity, but it just seems so dishonest to me. What made me think about this was all the publicity that death penalty study is getting lately. Tons of studies have found that it does NOT reduce crime, and then one study does get the opposite results and suddenly it's front page news. 😡

 

[RayneeDeigh]

😱 No novels in a YEAR??!! I can't even imagine! I've gone whole quarters without novels of my own choosing, but that was when I was taking lit courses, so I'd read Frankenstein or The Souls of Black Folk or somesuch.

Life is too short not to read for pleasure! 😛 I graduated last weekend and now I'm reading the Harry Potters from the beginning to prepare for book #7. Oh, and sleeping. A lot.

Oh I love Frankenstein, almost as much as I love Dracula. If anyone is in need of some summer reading, I HIGHLY recommend "Cry, the Beloved Country". Excellent book, and written in a way that is so unlike regular novels, it's quite refreshing.

You just reminded me that I haven't read the last Harry Potter book. I should get on that. Tonight I'm taking a break from all this work and I'm going to be in bed reading a nonfiction book about women who stay single their whole lives. ... For inspiration.

 

[amy203]

On a different note, I really hate how some researchers discard whatever data doesn't agree with their hypotheses. When I was working on my presentation for a conference in May people kept telling me just to "not mention" the tests I ran that didn't work out. I know it's really common in the field for the sake of simplicity, but it just seems so dishonest to me. What made me think about this was all the publicity that death penalty study is getting lately. Tons of studies have found that it does NOT reduce crime, and then one study does get the opposite results and suddenly it's front page news. 😡[/QUOTE]

Hi Raynee! This is a really great article rebutting that studies findings:
http://http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/DonohueDeter.pdf

 

[RayneeDeigh]

Hi Raynee! This is a really great article rebutting that studies findings:
http://http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/DonohueDeter.pdf

Oh that's AWESOME, I love you for posting that link. Thanks!

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Didn't a study *just* come out that says it IS a deterrence? I'm quite confused....I can't remember where I heard it, but I'm pretty sure that is what I heard, because I remember wanting to read up on it.

-t

 

[RayneeDeigh]

lol yeah, that's what sparked my whole rant about it.

I haven't seen a link to the actual study yet though.

 

[paramour]

lol yeah, that's what sparked my whole rant about it.

I haven't seen a link to the actual study yet though.

I have yet to attempt to locate the original study (or studies) mentioned but here is a news article regarding it for those who have no clue what's being talked about.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Yup! That's the story...now to get our hands on the research.....

-t

 

[amy203]

This is the article that caused the recent stir:

http://www.bepress.com/ev/vol3/iss3/art3/

The article I posted above is a response to it.

We can't actually prove that the death penalty does not deter crime (you can't prove a negative hypothesis), but the article I posted comes to the conclusion that the evidence suggesting capital punishment is a deterrent is very weak.

 

[psychanon]

On a different note, I really hate how some researchers discard whatever data doesn't agree with their hypotheses. When I was working on my presentation for a conference in May people kept telling me just to "not mention" the tests I ran that didn't work out. I know it's really common in the field for the sake of simplicity, but it just seems so dishonest to me. What made me think about this was all the publicity that death penalty study is getting lately. Tons of studies have found that it does NOT reduce crime, and then one study does get the opposite results and suddenly it's front page news. 😡

This is definitely a problem in any area of research (especially when profit motives are involved, which is why i think there are rules about reporting Rx trial outcomes). To be fair, though, it's not always on the side of the authors. Null findings are far less likely to be published. Researchers need publications to get jobs/ tenure. Thus, there is a huge incentive to focus on significant findings.

I wrote a paper in which I found both significant and non-significant findings. I presented them all because I thought readers should see the whole picture, particularly because it was an area in which very little research had been previously conducted. Also, I thought there were methodological reasons for why some results were significant and some weren't, which I laid out. It got flat-out rejected from the first journal I submitted it to, primarily because of the non-significant findings (it seems they overshadowed the significant stuff, when I thought it would be vice versa). So, when I re-submitted it to a different journal, I took out many of the non-significant findings (at the suggestion of my advisor), so it would tell a more coherent story. I think this kind of pruning is *very* common, and it's too bad, but that's what you have to do to get published.

 

[scienceisbeauty]

It sucks that null results aren't "publishable" material. There should be a journal devoted soley to that. You know, I understand, professors want tenure they have to publish - so they 'discard' away the null results. 🙁 Who knows what we don't know because people are too afraid to say anything - just like the death penalty example.

 

[amy203]

I think there's a bit more to it then just the publishing issue. The issue of what to do with null hypotheses is pretty controversial. I think the tricky part is that failing to disprove the null hypothesis doesn't prove that the null is true. So, in many cases, finding a null result doesn't tell us much. I would say this includes the death penalty issue. We can't prove that the death penalty doesn't deter crime - we can only say there is no evidence to support that it does.

Of course there are cases where discarding null results are a bigger issue. One that has been in the news a lot lately is drug testing. Most of the major medical journals now require all drug companies publishing in their journals to register every experiment they conduct, so they can't just run drug tests over and over again until they get a significant result.

Also, there IS a journal devoted entirely to publishing studies that don't reach significance levels.
http://www.jasnh.com/
However, based on their description, I think there focus is more on providing a tool for researchers to guide further research, as opposed to having a significant impact on the development of theory or impacting public policy.

 

[scienceisbeauty]

I know of that journal..
You're very much correct, the null results findings are more than just "publishable/non-publishable material", I am glad you brought that up. Yay you. I forgot to mention it in my post, so I'm glad you did!

 

[psychanon]

I think there's a bit more to it then just the publishing issue. The issue of what to do with null hypotheses is pretty controversial. I think the tricky part is that failing to disprove the null hypothesis doesn't prove that the null is true. So, in many cases, finding a null result doesn't tell us much.

This is a good point- there is a reason why null results are harder to publish-- they are less interesting, don't say much, and contribute less to the field. However, I still think that it creates a major incentive for academic dishonesty-- from the more minor and common activity of selectively reporting results all the way to falsification of data. It's completely antithetical to the principles of science, and I'm sure that it happens all the time. The incentive system is so ingrained into academia that I'm not sure that there's an easy solution, unless statisticians come up with away to test similarities between variables rather than deviations.

Also, there IS a journal devoted entirely to publishing studies that don't reach significance levels.
http://www.jasnh.com/
However, based on their description, I think there focus is more on providing a tool for researchers to guide further research, as opposed to having a significant impact on the development of theory or impacting public policy.

I had heard of that, but I always thought it was a joke-- people always talking about sending things to the Journal of Null Results when discussing the file drawer problem. It's nice to know it's out there, but it's still not an impressive journal to have on your c.v., and I doubt publications there would carry much weight with tenure committees.

 

[RayneeDeigh]

I just wanted to say thanks to everybody who encouraged me to stick with it. I had a meeting with my former advisor today and we've worked out a plan that is a happy medium. I'm going to present at a conference after I clear the absence with my NEW advisor (but I'm sure he'll be fine with it), and it will be the stuff I've already included in my thesis, with some new analyses that I'll definitely be able to have finished by the end of July. I'm glad that I a) didn't give up on the project just because I was frustrated, and b) took into account the fact that just like a few of you said, a break is good too! Now I have some light work and then relaxation to look forward to before I jump head-long into the craziest year.

I hope missing 2-3 days of classes in early 2008 won't be too much of a problem with grad courses.

 

[psychanon]

I hope missing 2-3 days of classes in early 2008 won't be too much of a problem with grad courses.

Don't worry at all-- missing class for conferences is totally acceptable, and in fact encouraged, as going to a conference to present your work is a much stronger learning experience than one day or two of class. 🙂

 

[Ollie123]

Even my undergrad professors were more than happy to make arrangements for me to miss a major exam to present at a conference. I can't imagine missing a few lectures to present being a major problem at graduate school were presenting at conferences is expected and commonplace (or maybe not so commonplace after some of the stats we saw in the match stats thread!).

The impression I've gotten is that pretty much everyone (including the professors teaching them) believes classwork is relatively unimportant compared to everything else you do as a grad student.

 

[psychwanabe]

I just wanted to say thanks to everybody who encouraged me to stick with it. I had a meeting with my former advisor today and we've worked out a plan that is a happy medium. I'm going to present at a conference after I clear the absence with my NEW advisor (but I'm sure he'll be fine with it), and it will be the stuff I've already included in my thesis, with some new analyses that I'll definitely be able to have finished by the end of July. I'm glad that I a) didn't give up on the project just because I was frustrated, and b) took into account the fact that just like a few of you said, a break is good too! Now I have some light work and then relaxation to look forward to before I jump head-long into the craziest year.

I hope missing 2-3 days of classes in early 2008 won't be too much of a problem with grad courses.

Cool. Glad it worked out!