Naive dentist

[dentaltom]

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Hi, what do you guys think of this situation? The dentist I'm helping over the summer decided to do a complete mouth rehab on a single mother who had teeth so bad she couldn't even get a job. Well, she needed endo, ortho, and prosth. He did this all himself and when it was all done, they both cried together like babies. I don't how much it all cost but he asked her to pay very little. The problem is that she has decided not to pay him anything. C'est la vie, huh? Just another reminder of how rotten people are. 🙂

 

[LestatZinnie]

well...if he documented the whole process he could use as sample case presentation for marketing. and if the patient says he doesnt have her consent...well screw her.

or he can take her to the collection agency.

 

[dinesh]

Sometimes it's just not worth all that.

 

[aphistis]

Hi, what do you guys think of this situation? The dentist I'm helping over the summer decided to do a complete mouth rehab on a single mother who had teeth so bad she couldn't even get a job. Well, she needed endo, ortho, and prosth. He did this all himself and when it was all done, they both cried together like babies. I don't how much it all cost but he asked her to pay very little. The problem is that she has decided not to pay him anything. C'est la vie, huh? Just another reminder of how rotten people are. 🙂

I don't want to pass judgment on either party here, but the dentist could file for (or at least tell the woman he will, if she doesn't pay her bill) a property lien against her.

 

[dinesh]

I see that happen a bit , sometimes there is no point in pursuing it.
It may depend on the mothers situation and his consience, he probably never even expected her to pay.

 

[DcS]

Dr. jeff can say definitively but I'm pretty sure in that case you just write it off as a charitable deduction and get on with your life.

 

[ISU_Steve]

Yeah, honestly in the big picture of things I don't imagine he lost much compared to what he makes annually. Chalk it up to a good deed (which we should all do more of as medical professionals) and move on to the next person who needs our help.

 

[grant555]

Actually, this sort of occurrence is not altogether unique. There are numerous dental organizations that pair dentists with patients who might not otherwise get the work (extensive or not) that they need.

http://www.tdhsmiles.org/site/pp.asp?c=jlL1JdP3H&b=134951

In the end, it is a personal decision of the dental professional, and I doubt that he would have waived the fee if he could not have afforded it. Take care and GOD bless.

 

[ItsGavinC]

Prepay, prepay, prepay. Give a 5% discount if paid in cash in full.

 

[lnn2]

Hi, what do you guys think of this situation? The dentist I'm helping over the summer decided to do a complete mouth rehab on a single mother who had teeth so bad she couldn't even get a job. Well, she needed endo, ortho, and prosth. He did this all himself and when it was all done, they both cried together like babies. I don't how much it all cost but he asked her to pay very little. The problem is that she has decided not to pay him anything. C'est la vie, huh? Just another reminder of how rotten people are. 🙂

I'm not suprised at all! There's a saying "In God We Trust, All Others Must Pay In Cash!" This is certainly the case. Much worse than that was the ingratitude from the patient. After all of the works that he had done for her, that's how she thanked him! He can definitely can sue her for theft of services but it's not worth the troubles.

 

[grant555]

I myself had a similar experience. My own dentist whom I was a patient of for 3yrs performed a RTC on #13 and 3 fillings for $100. I had never related to him that I was interested or pursuing a career in dentistry until I asked him to complete an oral health form that was required along with my initial deposit.

He was very enthused when he learned of this and decided to waive the bulk of my fees. He was a Houston grad practicing in Dallas, and I watched his business grow tremendously in the three years I was a patient.

The point in all this is that dentists are people, and people sometimes give when they don't necesarilly have to as my dentist did. No, there wasn't any crying, but encouragement, mutual respect, and as always with Dr. John Lee DDS, excellent dentistry.

Take care and GOD bless.

 

[aphistis]

Yeah, honestly in the big picture of things I don't imagine he lost much compared to what he makes annually. Chalk it up to a good deed (which we should all do more of as medical professionals) and move on to the next person who needs our help.

Charity cases should be decided before the treatment is given, and much more importantly, the dentist should be the one making the decision.

Suppose I walk down to a car dealership, and grab the keys to a Mercedes without telling anyone. You think the dealership, police, or jury would agree that "honestly, in the big picture of things I don't imagine you lost much compared to what you make annually. Chalk it up to a good deed, which you should all do more of as business professionals, and move on to the next person who needs your help"?

I'd be off to the big house, and rightly so--not because I caused any grievous financial harm to the dealership, but because grand theft is an intrinsically criminal act.

 

[drhobie7]

I agree with the comments about prepaying. I think this is crucial. So much so that I won't start work on any patient in the clinic until he/she pays the full cost of the treatment. I was talking to a practice management consultant who said, "In my experience, the only people who have a problem with paying up front are those who never planned on paying at all." Why is it that people think they can pay after the service for dentistry? It's a nasty habit that has to be broken. You don't leave a restaurant and say, "Oh just send me the bill." I think this is a major difference between those dentists collecting 98% of their billing (which is where everyone should be) and those collecting 85%.

 

[drhobie7]

Charity cases should be decided before the treatment is given, and much more importantly, the dentist should be the one making the decision.

Suppose I walk down to a car dealership, and grab the keys to a Mercedes without telling anyone. You think the dealership, police, or jury would agree that "honestly, in the big picture of things I don't imagine you lost much compared to what you make annually. Chalk it up to a good deed, which you should all do more of as business professionals, and move on to the next person who needs your help"?

I'd be off to the big house, and rightly so--not because I caused any grievous financial harm to the dealership, but because grand theft is an intrinsically criminal act.

I just wanted to add that I thought this was a good analogy since full mouth reconstructions can cost a patient between $40-80,000.

 

[grant555]

Charity cases should be decided before the treatment is given, and much more importantly, the dentist should be the one making the decision.

Suppose I walk down to a car dealership, and grab the keys to a Mercedes without telling anyone. You think the dealership, police, or jury would agree that "honestly, in the big picture of things I don't imagine you lost much compared to what you make annually. Chalk it up to a good deed, which you should all do more of as business professionals, and move on to the next person who needs your help"?

I'd be off to the big house, and rightly so--not because I caused any grievous financial harm to the dealership, but because grand theft is an intrinsically criminal act.

I can see both sides of this issue because I have also grappled with this myself. There is a difference between someone stiffing the clinician on the bill and the dentist actually donating services. Personally, I am not sure how I would handle the situation, but I did have an interesting conversation with my internal medicine physician who also thought his Invisalign aligners were the best thing going. He spent half of my physical talking about how fast his dentist got patients in out of the office.

A physician in love with dental technology, imagine that?

He went on to elucidate that he had to write off more unpaid bills in the past year than he had in the last few years.

Health care in general is the number one cost of bankruptcy in this country. Some 40 million Americans who work full-time do not have health coverage, and those that do still sometimes have difficulty paying.

I guess if he really wanted to pursue the woman, he could always use a collection agency. Those people could find who shot Jimmy Hoffa.

Seriously, some collections agents ought to be working for Homeland Security. The war in terror would be over in 90 days or less.

Take care and GOD bless.

 

[DrJeff]

Dr. jeff can say definitively but I'm pretty sure in that case you just write it off as a charitable deduction and get on with your life.

When I read the initial post in this thread, the first thing that jumped to mind is that the dentist's intention right from the start is for this to be a life altering charity case(think of it as doing an "extreme makeover")

I'll typically do a case or 2 a year like this where it tends to be a BIG case involving most facets of dentistry on an individual who in their current life situation couldn't even think about affording all the treatment needed to restore them to full health/function. I know its sounds altruistic, but believe me if I was 100% altruistic in cases like this I'd be doing 2 or so a week, not 2 or so a year. It's just one of those things where when you finish the case, you(and your staff also) tend to get that "warm fuzzy feeling" and the look on that patient's face is worth 10 times what you would have billed for that case outright. It's just one of those things where every now and then I'll come across a patient where something about them/their situation gets to me, and I'll give them the good news that as I put it "I'm going to fix everything that's wrong with your teeth, and the bill's on me".

In cases like this, I tend to make a "contract" with the patient where I tell them that I'll do the case at no charge(or sometimes maybe just for lab fees only) if they keep up the following situations. 1) they keep all their scheduled appointments, baring any EXTREME reasons to cancel (I'm generally talking their giving birth or they have to attend THEIR OWN funeral) 2) I get to put their before, during, and after pictures into one of my case presentation books(I've got a ton of pictures after a few years of doing this, and maybe one day I'll actually sit in my office and out the photo album together 🙄 ) 3) They make all the needed hygiene/dietary changes that I require(i.e. they quit smoking, really cut back on the sugar, and brush and floss all the time - I literally tell them that I won't finish their case by inserting whatever final pieces may be required until their perio is impecable)

I have them sign a contract with these clauses, and if they fail to meet one, they are informed that they will be dismissed as a patient and my front desk will come after them for a MINIMUM of 50% of the fees for what has been done so far 😱 - my front desk has yet to need to do this

In general I don't even have my office manager enter these fees onto my production numbers just to later write them off as uncollectable or charitable, however we do keep very close details of the amount of "donated" work like this, or when we see medicaid patients, which we're then able to use to help with the political side of dentistry by having numbers to give to our legislators when they say that we don't do anything to help the underserved. Like I said, when I do these cases, the main reason is altruism, however thay can often have other advantages to help different aspects of dentistry

 

[ItsGavinC]

I'd be off to the big house, and rightly so--not because I caused any grievous financial harm to the dealership, but because grand theft is an intrinsically criminal act.

100% correct. For some reason people feel that they can negotiate dental prices or simply not pay at all.

 

[tx oms]

First, grant 555, hows about turning off the blue type? It's real annoying.

If you want to do some "charity" work, why not just slick 'em and make CDs? Do you think someone with a trash mouth is really going to keep your $5000 crown and bridge for long? Like a gold ring in a pig's nose. The full mouth rehab may cost you $5000 in lab fees, the denture may cost you $200.

 

[npayne]

I had a similar experience in dental school, but I felt bad for the patient. She had extensive treatment done before she came to the shoool. The thing was she had gastric bypass surgery done a few years before and had severe gasric reflux disease. My patient had numerous dental treatments done after her surgery, but felt that the general dentist was scamming her. The fact was and I told her it was her diet and not a scam. We put her on fluoridated thoothpaste and extensive disease control measures. After 2 years and 10,000 dollars in dental costs from the dental school we have pretty much controlled her condition. The fact is I did not account for our put it on my account an unprecedented amount just because I felt it to be a gift that a patient with this amount of dental disease to trust me with her dental care. It was this patient and her graditude that mad me apprecitate being a dentist. Therefore, being a dentist is not only about the money, but also about changing a persons percetion about dental care and making them realize that they can be in control of what the ultimate outcome is in their dental care. I did not appreciate her graditude until I received a paire of hand made booties for my newborn daughter...what and awesome gift...this is why I became a dentist....nothing more, nothing less

First, grant 555, hows about turning off the blue type? It's real annoying.

If you want to do some "charity" work, why not just slick 'em and make CDs? Do you think someone with a trash mouth is really going to keep your $5000 crown and bridge for long? Like a gold ring in a pig's nose. The full mouth rehab may cost you $5000 in lab fees, the denture may cost you $200.

 

[tx oms]

We put her on fluoridated thoothpaste and extensive disease control measures.

You have to try hard NOT to buy fluoridated toothpaste. Still, thanks for warming the cockles of my heart--or is that the chili mac I had for dinner?

 

[grant555]

First, grant 555, hows about turning off the blue type? It's real annoying.

If you want to do some "charity" work, why not just slick 'em and make CDs? Do you think someone with a trash mouth is really going to keep your $5000 crown and bridge for long? Like a gold ring in a pig's nose. The full mouth rehab may cost you $5000 in lab fees, the denture may cost you $200.

More than likely the blue type will remain. What is alarming is your response altogether. One of the benefits of private practice is that the dentist can make up his or her own mind as to what sort of practice they choose to have; you could focus on comestics, serve the indigent or poor, or do neither and work strictly fee for service.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with giving back from time to time, which was the intent of what I wrote in the first place. What is apparent is that you really have nothing to discuss upon merit and chose the easy way out of attacking the color of type I am using. I don't know why you would waste time even making such a statement.

This is one of the main problems with the medical profession in general is that there is a lack of humility and compassion for the patient. Nothing is wrong with doing charity work.

No, it doesn't have to be the bulk of your practice, and like the Texas Dental Association said on the url page listed earlier, some dentists may take only one patient a year. Giving back to one patient in a calendar year is not going to shut your practice down, nor should it cause you to lose sufficient sleep at night.

If it does, you have a host of other personal problems to deal with. Take care and GOD bless.

 

[DcS]

The fact is I did not account for our put it on my account an unprecedented amount just because I felt it to be a gift that a patient with this amount of dental disease to trust me with her dental care.

Since when do dental schools allow a student to waive a 10,000 treatment plan 🙄 Yeah, that'll happen. Excuse me Dr. XX, I thought since this lady was uber nice I'd not charge her 10 grand. Cool?

 

[toofache32]

This is one of the main problems with the medical profession in general is that there is a lack of humility and compassion for the patient. Nothing is wrong with doing charity work.

No, it doesn't have to be the bulk of your practice, and like the Texas Dental Association said on the url page listed earlier, some dentists may take only one patient a year. Giving back to one patient in a calendar year is not going to shut your practice down, nor should it cause you to lose sufficient sleep at night.

If it does, you have a host of other personal problems to deal with. Take care and GOD bless.

TX_OMS wasn't challenging why do charity work. He was challenging the type of care offered. His point was that if a the patient couldn't maintain their original teeth, what makes you think they will get religion and suddenly start taking care of your new restorations. These people don't get to where they are by brushing, flossing, and seeing their dentist every 6 months. In this respect, you could also look at it as a liability.

 

[DrJeff]

This is one of the main problems with the medical profession in general is that there is a lack of humility and compassion for the patient. Nothing is wrong with doing charity work.

Actually the main problem with the medical and to some extent our dental profession isn't the lack of humility and/or compassion, but the absolutely ludicris insurance industry that governs over us. If we as trained providers could charge what we feel is appropriate for our services, and then actually receive what WE feel is appropriate from the insurances that many of our patients have, then you'd see alot more charitable cases happening. But when you're loosing a good percentage of your fees due to insurance write offs, and have your own bills to pay, then you need to take care of your own families charity first, thus decreasing the other charity you can give. Take a close look at the insurance carriers out there, when they report their earnings, it will almost always read as "PROFITS were up/down X%" never "Losses were X dollars". Their managed care contracts that they have so many people signed up with will guarentee them a profit margin (often between 15 and 20%) all the while they're reducing the payments to you, the highly trained clinicians that are actually do the work. And believe me when I tell you that the insurance companies will work to spin anything to their favor.

 

[grant555]

toofache32 I can see where that would make sense, but many people don't have access to health care at all. If there was an indication that the person wouldn't appreciate the charity work, then it wouldn't make sense offering them the aid in the first place. Once again, it would be up to the individual dentist to make that determination.

I can see merit in Dr.Jeff's statements as well because the insurance business is driven mainly by money. Most people in insurance and they're representative corporate attorneys are merchants and are only concerned with the bottom line. Considering that he is already practicing and has substantially more knowledge than me on this front, I will have to accept Dr. Jeff's response. I won't question anyone with whom I cannot competently disagree.

However, corporations do donate monies to charities as well as do some small businesses (i.e. food drives, walks for cancer etc).

I think everyone on this forum would agree that in the secular sense commerce makes the world go around, but also that there are others who would point to the Almighty and philantropic pursuits. As practitioners we must make money or wouldn't be able to stay in business, but the point of friction is that the insurance companies are thinking in the same terms.

The beauty of dentistry is that the clinician can make the decision when and how to give or not at all. No one here is bound to philosophically agree with how a particular clinician runs their practice unless maybe as an associate. Ironically, UNC concedes that this is one of the reasons why an associate may part from another dentist.


Basically, you don't have to give anything to anyone. There is nothing wrong with turning a profit and making huge sums of money. This is a capitalist country, and that notion has served this country well.

If I am so blessed to have my own practice, I will run it the way that I see fit and live with the consequences both good and bad understanding full-well what I am up against as far as competing dentists and insurance companies. Take care and GOD bless.

 

[grant555]

Hi, what do you guys think of this situation? The dentist I'm helping over the summer decided to do a complete mouth rehab on a single mother who had teeth so bad she couldn't even get a job. Well, she needed endo, ortho, and prosth. He did this all himself and when it was all done, they both cried together like babies. I don't how much it all cost but he asked her to pay very little. The problem is that she has decided not to pay him anything. C'est la vie, huh? Just another reminder of how rotten people are. 🙂

I am appreciative that you brought this subject up in the first place. This is far and away one of the more interesting and productive posts in a long time. Take care and GOD bless.

 

[tx oms]

What is alarming is your response altogether.

What is alarming is the fact that you haven't even started dental school, yet seem to think you have valid and reliable opinions. Why don't you learn how to number the teeth before you condemn my treatment approaches. A healthy dose of reality wouldn't hurt, either. Sure, now you want to "give back to the community" but that will change once you realize that "the community" loves to take but never give back to you. Seen a lot gratitude from indigent patients? I haven't. Give an indigent patient $10,000, a house, and car and he'll blow it all on blow.

 

[grant555]

What is alarming is the fact that you haven't even started dental school, yet seem to think you have valid and reliable opinions. Why don't you learn how to number the teeth before you condemn my treatment approaches. A healthy dose of reality wouldn't hurt, either. Sure, now you want to "give back to the community" but that will change once you realize that "the community" loves to take but never give back to you. Seen a lot gratitude from indigent patients? I haven't. Give an indigent patient $10,000, a house, and car and he'll blow it all on blow.

I could care less about your treatment approaches or your little regard for those less fortunate. As far as counting teeth, I have already passed that bar at Baylor's SPEP program, so I leave that silly attack where it stands.

Making broad generalizations about "the community" is not realistic and is narrow minded. You can practice any way you wish, and I will do the same.

Also, giving to someone with the inclination that they will or should give back means that you aren't giving at all. Take care and GOD bless.

 

[toofache32]

toofache32 I can see where that would make sense, but many people don't have access to health care at all. If there was an indication that the person wouldn't appreciate the charity work, then it wouldn't make sense offering them the aid in the first place. Once again, it would be up to the individual dentist to make that determination.

I think you still don't get it. It's not about whether the patient "appreciates" your work. It's about placing dental restorations that require maintainence which the patient has already demonstrated that are not willing to do. When you put crowns and fillings in someone's mouth it only patches up the damage, it does not fix the problem that caused the damage...patient self-neglect.

 

[grant555]

I think you still don't get it. It's not about whether the patient "appreciates" your work. It's about placing dental restorations that require maintainence which the patient has already demonstrated that are not willing to do. When you put crowns and fillings in someone's mouth it only patches up the damage, it does not fix the problem that caused the damage...patient self-neglect.

I think the difference here is a philosophical one and not a clinical one. I was raised as a Christian and educated in Christian schools from K-12 grade. It is a part of who I am. No, I don't expect to have prayer in the dental clinic, but I was taught and believe that you should never give up on a person as long as there is breath in their body. That is what you are not getting.

If the patient chooses to continue neglecting their oral health after I have donated services, that is their own affair. I am not in the business of becoming personally responsible for the lives of those I help or don't, only the way I feel about it.

Like I said already, do what you want when you practice, and I will help who I want when I want. I have no quarrel with others who think differently. Take care and GOD bless.

 

[souperman]

I think you still don't get it. It's not about whether the patient "appreciates" your work. It's about placing dental restorations that require maintainence which the patient has already demonstrated that are not willing to do. When you put crowns and fillings in someone's mouth it only patches up the damage, it does not fix the problem that caused the damage...patient self-neglect.

If your patient leaves your office after treatment and still doesn't know how to maintain good oral health/care then I think it is you who has fail. As a dentist you also need to educate about prevention and not just treat neglect. Sure patient self-neglect probably was the cause, so the dentist should fix the problem and educate the patient on how to keep the problem from coming back.

 

[tx oms]

Sorry, Mr. SPEP graduate, I didn't realize I was talking to such an accomplished man. Let's see, you can number teeth, know where to find the mouth, and you may have even been told how to do dentistry. Pretty soon you'll learn dentistry. At this point, a dental assistant has more formal training.

Toofache is correct, it is silly to think that a polished turd is going to remain shiny. It's the same reason we don't put implants in smokers. Many plastic surgeons won't put implants in smokers, either. Lots of guys won't do a face lift on a smoker, either. Why? Because the underlying cause of their problem is not resolved.

I was raised as a Christian and educated in Christian schools from K-12 grade. It is a part of who I am. No, I don't expect to have prayer in the dental clinic, but I was taught and believe that you should never give up on a person as long as there is breath in their body. That is what you are not getting.

If the patient chooses to continue neglecting their oral health after I have donated services, that is their own affair. I am not in the business of becoming personally responsible for the lives of those I help or don't, only the way I feel about it.

Like I said already, do what you want when you practice, and I will help who I want when I want. I have no quarrel with others who think differently. Take care and GOD bless.

Wow, your post is like a pile of ammo laying next to my howitzer.

Are you trying to say that donating dental services makes you a better Christian? Does God Himself stain your veneers? Perhaps if you wish to make donations in the name of Christiandom your money and efforts would make a bigger impact with things like Big Brothers/Big Sisters and community outreach. Maybe you could donate to a drug treatment center, scholarship fund, or family counseling center. Many people are indigent, at least in part, b/c of drugs, lack of education, and poor ablility to interact in society--NOT BECAUSE THEY CAN'T AFFORD LEE PRESS-ON TEETH!

You do seem to have a quarrel with other who think differently, BTW.

 

[tx oms]

If your patient leaves your office after treatment and still doesn't know how to maintain good oral health/care then I think it is you who has fail. As a dentist you also need to educate about prevention and not just treat neglect. Sure patient self-neglect probably was the cause, so the dentist should fix the problem and educate the patient on how to keep the problem from coming back.

Oh lord, my head is throbbing. The debate began b/c people were talking about fixing up a random person who comes to the office. It sounded to me like the patients in questions were not long-standing, but had rather been picked based on the sob factor of their story.

THEREFORE, toofache's point is valid. You can't take someone who walks off the street with a mouth like Bahsra and expect that $5000 worth of free lab work is going to give them religion. Souperman, your post is consistant with what we're saying: these patients need more than a break on the cost of dentistry, they have to be willing to change and they need to show change before the investment.

 

[grant555]

Isn't worth repeating.

Actually, I was a mentor in the Big Brothers Big Sisters of North Texas in Dallas for two years.

I think your comments are pointless in that you are trying to stir trouble. The fact of the matter is that you must be extemely arrogant to use GOD's name so loosely.

Yes, donating services that are needed does make me a better Christian as does caring about others. You don't seem to care about anyone but yourself.

I wish you would post your real name so future general dentists will know who not to refer to. I think your attitude stinks to the high heavens. Take care and GOD bless.

 

[tx oms]

I think your comments are pointless in that you are trying to stir trouble. The fact of the matter is that you must be extemely arrogant to use GOD's name so loosely. I wish you would post your real name so future general dentists will know who not to refer to. I think your attitude stinks to the high heavens. Take care and GOD bless.

I am narcissistic and obsessive compulsive, not antisocial. I like other narcissists like omsres, toofache, and probably aphistis. I don't like weak people, people who walk around in constant angst, and people whose heart bleeds over everything. You and the other religious police must be extremely fun to hang out with.

I wish you'd post your real name so I can mail all your donated restorations back to you, along with their associated teeth and maybe some bone fragments from the alveoplasty.

 

[grant555]

I am narcissistic and obsessive compulsive, not antisocial. I like other narcissists like omsres, toofache, and probably aphistis. I don't like weak people, people who walk around in constant angst, and people whose heart bleeds over everything. You and the other religious police must be extremely fun to hang out with.

I wish you'd post your real name so I can mail all your donated restorations back to you, along with their associated teeth and maybe some bone fragments from the alveoplasty.

You've got to be kidding. That's got to be ridiculous. Take care and GOD bless.

 

[toofache32]

If your patient leaves your office after treatment and still doesn't know how to maintain good oral health/care then I think it is you who has fail.

Then why aren't all Periodontists in jail or bankrupt?

It's not a question of do they know how...it's a question of are they willing.

 

[ItsGavinC]

If your patient leaves your office after treatment and still doesn't know how to maintain good oral health/care then I think it is you who has fail.

Then 99% of dentists are probably failures seeing as how very few patients are even close to compliant with OHI.

Hell, many dentists aren't even compliant with OHI. Flossed daily lately?

 

[ItsGavinC]

Yes, donating services that are needed does make me a better Christian as does caring about others. You don't seem to care about anyone but yourself.

I don't think so, but that's another subject.

Actually, I would say that the OMS guy cares MORE about his patients because he refuses to supply them with services that they won't take care of. That's doing patients a HUGE favor.

Giving free services to patients who can't comply with OHI or any other health-recommendations is ridiculous. A real clinician who is truly interested in the patient and not how much charitable work they log, will understand this.

 

[DrJeff]

I don't think so, but that's another subject.

Actually, I would say that the OMS guy cares MORE about his patients because he refuses to supply them with services that they won't take care of. That's doing patients a HUGE favor.

Giving free services to patients who can't comply with OHI or any other health-recommendations is ridiculous. A real clinician who is truly interested in the patient and not how much charitable work they log, will understand this.

I'm impressed Gavin, your words are sounding not like someone whose mid way through dental school, but a clinician whose been in practice for 10+ years. Very, very rational thought process and I'm being completely serious when it bodes very well for your future business.

On a different note to put things into perspective, I found out this morning, that one of my patients (21 years old) was killed this past Tuesday AM while on a mission against the insurgants with his Army unit about 20 miles West of Baghad. When I last treated him before he enlisted 2.5 years ago, as he put it to me, "I have some issues with parental authority, but I know the military is exactly what I need, and I look forward to defending this country." He voluntarily re-enlisted for 4 more years this past January. Not only does he leave his parents, but 2 younger sisters and a younger special needs brother. 😱

If you ever have any doubts about whether or not we should be over helping to liberate the Iraqis, talk to someone whose been over there. I have about a half dozen or so patients who have served in either Iraq or Afganistan and every last 1 of them would go back in a second. Also when the come home, their dental care is 100% on me. These are the real people who we should all be taking care of free of charge 👍

 

[predentchick]

Could not agree more, Dr. Jeff. Good for you. Thanks for the post.

 

[aphistis]

a mouth like Bahsra

 

[grant555]

I don't think so, but that's another subject.

Actually, I would say that the OMS guy cares MORE about his patients because he refuses to supply them with services that they won't take care of. That's doing patients a HUGE favor.

Giving free services to patients who can't comply with OHI or any other health-recommendations is ridiculous. A real clinician who is truly interested in the patient and not how much charitable work they log, will understand this.

I simply don't agree with you guys on this. I just don't. No amount of dental education or lack there of is going to change the way I view the world or the role I can play in it. End of story. You can give back, educate, and make a profitable living.

As far as Dr Jeff's views on soldiers, I have two cousins who have both done tours in Iraq, and they couldn't disagree with the war more and are not hell bent on going back. There are soldiers who are not for this war.

I will agree that this country has done a piss poor job taking care of vets, both liberals and conservatives.

On these subjects, we will just have to disagree.

Personally, I floss every morning just after prayer.

Take care and GOD bless.

 

[LAZYGUY]

Yes, donating services that are needed does make me a better Christian as does caring about others. You don't seem to care about anyone but yourself.

Allright, this is where I chime in.

You are not a better christian because you do any charitable work. The only thing that can make you a better christian is having a more deep rooted relationship with GOD.....period. Just like you can't earn salvation, you can't earn the title christian on your own merits. It's God's to give and not our's to earn. Enough of that.

Stop judging how others live their life. You will soon realize the econmics of having a practice. Texas physicians give $1 billion dollars in charitable works every year so before you start bashing the health profession start realizing that there are facts out there that you must first learn before you enter into debates with educated people.


For what good is it for a man to win the world but lose his very soul? Luke 9:25

 

[grant555]

Stop judging how others live their life.


For what good is it for a man to win the world but lose his very soul? Luke 9:25

Thanks for chiming in, but I am not judging them. Like I said, they can run their practice the way they see fit, and their lives for that matter. Community service didn't begin with, and it won't end with me. We can use more of the bible quotes. Keep them coming.

Didn't Mother Theresa do charitable work? Charitable work always will count in the eyes of GOD.

There are hosts of others who feel this way; see here

http://www.christiandental.org/


Take care and GOD bless.

 

[UConn_SDM]

Another story. I have a classmate who did a full mouth exo on a 25 year old healthy male and gave him complete dentures. He liked soda. He sipped two 2 liter bottles of Coke everyday and was skinny as a rail. Every tooth in his mouth was grossly decayed, 75% + needed endo/core and crowns, 25% were completely hopeless no matter what the treatment.

Could one argue the best treatment would have been 20 RCTs and 20 Crowns with a couple of exos? Maybe? But taking the whole person into consideration - he couldn't afford that treatment and when asked point blank if he was going to stop soaking his teeth in Coke - he said nope.

It's hard to look a 25 year old in that face and say - complete dentures. The temptation is to say if there are restorable teeth they must be restored. But the best treatment for this patient was full mouth exo and complete dentures. He wasn't going to change or be able to pay for the treatment.

My hardest treatment plan decisions in dentistry so far have been when to full mouth exo (when is enough enough and restoring teeth a disservice to the patient) and when to not treat (when is it bad to cut off and replace 20 crowns on a not so healthy 88 year old because there is some recurrent decay on every FPD in his mouth).

For those of you not in dental school yet, there are some very real and important realizations you will come to that at first seem like your making a personal judgement about the patient (they don't deserve to keep their teeth) or you don't really care enough to help them keep their teeth.

It's just not the case. Sometimes it is a disservice to the patient to restore their teeth. That's a hard one to wrap your brain around sometimes but necessary because you will be help the patient understand that this is their best choice.

 

[DrJeff]

Another story. I have a classmate who did a full mouth exo on a 25 year old healthy male and gave him complete dentures. He liked soda. He sipped two 2 liter bottles of Coke everyday and was skinny as a rail. Every tooth in his mouth was grossly decayed, 75% + needed endo/core and crowns, 25% were completely hopeless no matter what the treatment.

Could one argue the best treatment would have been 20 RCTs and 20 Crowns with a couple of exos? Maybe? But taking the whole person into consideration - he couldn't afford that treatment and when asked point blank if he was going to stop soaking his teeth in Coke - he said nope.

It's hard to look a 25 year old in that face and say - complete dentures. The temptation is to say if there are restorable teeth they must be restored. But the best treatment for this patient was full mouth exo and complete dentures. He wasn't going to change or be able to pay for the treatment.

My hardest treatment plan decisions in dentistry so far have been when to full mouth exo (when is enough enough and restoring teeth a disservice to the patient) and when to not treat (when is it bad to cut off and replace 20 crowns on a not so healthy 88 year old because there is some recurrent decay on every FPD in his mouth).

For those of you not in dental school yet, there are some very real and important realizations you will come to that at first seem like your making a personal judgement about the patient (they don't deserve to keep their teeth) or you don't really care enough to help them keep their teeth.

It's just not the case. Sometimes it is a disservice to the patient to restore their teeth. That's a hard one to wrap your brain around sometimes but necessary because you will be help the patient understand that this is their best choice.

You should cut forward this post to the department heads at UCONN, they'll see that you've learned the whole concept that they try and get across. Great post! And on a side note, with strong, rationale views like that I really hope I get you in my CTID group for ths coming year.

 

[LAZYGUY]

Thanks for chiming in, but I am not judging them. Like I said, they can run their practice the way they see fit, and their lives for that matter. Community service didn't begin with, and it won't end with me. We can use more of the bible quotes. Keep them coming.

Didn't Mother Theresa do charitable work? Charitable work always will count in the eyes of GOD.

There are hosts of others who feel this way; see here

http://www.christiandental.org/


Take care and GOD bless.

Charitable work is great...it will not get you into heaven.

 

[UConn_SDM]

I really hope I get you in my CTID group for ths coming year.

Sorry Dr. Jeff I just graduated last month 😉

 

[DrJeff]

Sorry Dr. Jeff I just graduated last month 😉

Great then to see that UCONN has turned out another fine grad to live upto the lovely commercial for the CT lottery that's on local TV 😀 👍