need advice!!!! ethical question

[dreamvet]

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so . . . because of professionalism, I cannot go into details into the situation or the people involved.

But I had a major ethical problem last night and did not know what to do about it.
Basically, i am an assistant/tech in training and the vet i was working with last night asked me to pretend a dog was still alive for when the owners come to the back (this included hooking it up to the oxygen and breathing for him and checking "heartbeat").
i thought he would tell them when they came back, but he didn't, instead he progressed to saying there might still be a chance for the dog, that it should be hospitalized ($700 bill). they decided to put the dog down. but this was not before the doc left me alone in the room with them, they were crying and kissing and hugging the dead dog. I never felt like i was doing something more wrong in my entire life.

the head tech yelled at the vet and told him that first thing in the morning he was going to tell the head vet/owner what had happened. and the tech consoled me and said he was so sorry that i had to do that, that is was wrong.
now. . . .i'm sure he will be punished (prob not fired), but i do NOT want to work with that vet anymore. i am still learning what it is to be a vet, and a good one, and i do NOT want to learn my ethics and techniques from someone like that.

my parents told me to suck it up, that there will always be people like that in the world and just to do my job and tell them if i was ever made to do something like that again i would quit. but i just want to tell them now that i refuse to work with him. . . he used his higher ranking to make me do something i was VERY ethically uncomfortable with. I need advice!!!!!🙁

 

[Badger Girl]

I don't have advice for you, but WOW, that sounds like a terrible situation to be in and I can't believe that happened. I really hope that vet is punished somehow. In fact, it would seem appropriate to report those actions to licensing. I have seen other professionals reprimanded for much less. I am really bothered by this! 🙁

 

[dreamvet]

i'm really frustrated because i KNEW it was wrong but i did it anyway for multiple reasons:

1) i was in shock
2) i only worked there for 1.5 months and i knew if i just said NO to the vet he would have fired me
3) even though i knew in my gut it was wrong, i still looked up to the vet and gave him the benefit of the doubt.

i still feel soooo bad for being a part of it. and i'm pissed that he asked me to help him in it. i have job offers from other clinics from before but i really like working here. it's a great emergency clinic and i'm learning a ton. but how can i respect him and work with him anymore. he's one of 9 vets, and i have nothing but respect and admiration for the others.

 

[NittanyKitty]

Whoa. I mean...WHOA. This sounds terrible. This is really mind-blowing, and I'm so sorry you had to go through that. If you get along pretty well with the owner, let him/her know your version of what happened (they might ask you this anyway) and that you would be uncomfortable working with this veterinarian again. This is a serious situation, and would definitely jeopardize that vet's job and license. He was wrong to make you do something like this as well, and anyone could see that what he did was extremely unprofessional and morally questionable. Let us know what happens. With all hope you'll never have to go through something like this at that practice again.

 

[NittanyKitty]

i'm really frustrated because i KNEW it was wrong but i did it anyway for multiple reasons:

1) i was in shock
2) i only worked there for 1.5 months and i knew if i just said NO to the vet he would have fired me
3) even though i knew in my gut it was wrong, i still looked up to the vet and gave him the benefit of the doubt.

i still feel soooo bad for being a part of it. and i'm pissed that he asked me to help him in it. i have job offers from other clinics from before but i really like working here. it's a great emergency clinic and i'm learning a ton. but how can i respect him and work with him anymore.

I know how you feel. When you're still learning and are eager to learn and help as much as you can, it's hard to feel comfortable enough to question the actions of a professional you admire and respect. HE was the one who was wrong. He was wrong for the decisions he made, and he was wrong to force you into actions that made you so uncomfortable and upset with yourself. It's natural to feel bad, but don't feel that there was something you could have really done in that situation. He shouldn't have put you in that position, and he'll be the one who's blamed and punished.

 

[critterfixer]

I am not sure I understand. The vet asked you to pretend the dog was still alive so he/she could recommend a costly hospitalization?

If that is what occurred, that's fraud. Not only should you NOT suck it up, you should report it.

I am shocked your parents would tell you to look the other way. YOU could also be considered an accessory to fraud, should those owners find out. Get out of there now and report it. A vet like that does the profession a huge disservice.

 

[VelcroSky]

I think it sounds like a good idea to have a talk with the owner about this. What that vet did was WAY over the line by any standard. I would express your misgivings about the situation with the owner and say that you really enjoy working there but don't feel comfortable working with that vet again. I would actually be surprised if the owner didn't fire the vet since if word of something like this got out the practice would be in serious jeopardy. And yeah, I agree that this sounds like something that should be reported to licensing. If he is capable of doing that, than who knows what he could do? I mean, seriously, is this guy dipping in the ketamine or something?

 

[dreamvet]

no no no. I DID report it. the head tech and i left a note for the owner to see when he got in this morning. the receptionist was also made to do some questionable things and she reported it as well. the head tech had a meeting with the owner at 7am this morning. i will know what happened when i go to work tonight.

i'm not considering sucking it up and NOT talking, my parents told me to suck it up and keep working there and not to resign yet.

I KNOW it was wrong and will not let this just slide. i just don't know whether to resign if he is not fired or not. I don't know how i could work with him again.

 

[zpinkpanther]

Whoa, that's awful. I definitely think that he should be reprimanded by the owner at least, if not by the state. Temporary suspension of his license, perhaps. Anyway, in some ways you're lucky that you work at a clinic where you have that hierarchy of authority; if this happened at a small clinic, where the owner is the only vet, you'd have to report directly to the state and I'm sure that would be no fun.

I guess my advice, if you don't want to work with that vet anymore, would be to stay with the clinic, but express your concerns to the head tech (I'm assuming that's who does the scheduling. Instead of throwing out this whole experience because of one bad person, you can ask to be scheduled at times when that vet isn't working, so that you're not exposed to that kind of thing again. And I'd also make it clear that if something similar happens again, you're outta there.

 

[PJlovin]

First, I'm sorry you were put in that position. I'm not going to say I understand how you feel, because, as a Tech, I've never been put in such a position.

However, had I been, I can say I would have been appalled. I would make sure the practice owner is made aware of the situation ASAP. Second, I would most likely report the horrid Vet to the licensing board. (not sure if that would do anything, but it's worth a try). I'm sure the practice owner will side with you...why would he want someone who is unethical working for him. If he does...then perhaps you should think twice about remaining in that practice....despite it being a good emergency hospital.

I would never "suck it up"...as your parents suggested. Especially if it involves something that goes against my every moral. You are in the right....just because he's the vet and you're the trainee, doesn't mean you don't have a voice in the situation. Make it heard. Like you said, you have other job offers. When you have your vet school interviews and they ask you about an ethical dilemma you had to face....here it is.

Good luck and please Let us know what happens!!

 

[rexosaurus]

From what I understand thus far, you have not actually formally reported this vet's behavior. Leaving a note for the head vet is not going far enough. You need to report this vet to licencing, like the others have said. It is a formal situation that should probably be taken care of as soon as possible.

Good luck with your situation, that is a pretty crappy place to be in 🙁 The worst that can happen is that you will no longer work at that clinic, but is that really such a bad thing?

 

[dreamvet]

at least i wasn't the only one that was in the room. the head tech as well as one other tech saw what happened, and one was even asked to help and he said no. the vet just looked at me and told me to keep going. i was too in shock to know what to do and before i knew it the owners were inside.

ps - the owners were 5 people. one was an 8 month preg woman, and the owner was the head of paramedics of the city with a police uniform on.
i was in too much shock to know what to do.

 

[zpinkpanther]

ps - the owners were 5 people. one was an 8 month preg woman, and the owner was the head of paramedics of the city with a police uniform on.
i was in too much shock to know what to do.

Wow... shouldn't someone who has EMS experience know a dead body when they see one? 😕

 

[dreamvet]

that's what i thought. but he didn't even come near the dog to say goodbye, he was too sad.

anyway, i'm off to work. . . .i'll see what happened at the meeting with the owner.

 

[dvm'08]

From what I understand thus far, you have not actually formally reported this vet's behavior. Leaving a note for the head vet is not going far enough. You need to report this vet to licencing, like the others have said. It is a formal situation that should probably be taken care of as soon as possible.

Good luck with your situation, that is a pretty crappy place to be in 🙁 The worst that can happen is that you will no longer work at that clinic, but is that really such a bad thing?

Although I'm not arguing with the fact that a formal, written complaint be made to your appropriate Veterinary Medical Association, i would strongly stress to you that you need to be informed on the appropriate course, and proper procedures regarding professional complaints within your jurisdiction.

Because you are not a licensed technician, nor a licensed veterinarian, you may not be in a position to formally judge the actions of the attending veterinarian (regardless of the obvious malpractice that occurred).

I would suggest you speak to the practice owner about what happened, and urge him/her to take appropriate measures. What you can do, in the meantime, is make an accurate written statement (complete with times, and what was said) about the incident, and have the head tech witness and date it. Your statement can then be used if disciplinary action is taken.

Accusations of professional misconduct are taken very seriously, and you want to ensure that you've taken every action to protect yourself as the process proceeds.

 

[twelvetigers]

On the very horrible plus side of things, you will have a perfect answer if you get the whole "Name a time that your values were questioned" type situation in an interview. I'd say that definitely fits the bill. I think someone already mentioned this, actually...

I would have a hard time working there if the vet was allowed to stay. It's your choice though - do what YOU feel is right. Not what your parents think. They aren't the ones working there.

I also agree that you should report this as high up as you can. See about contacting the state board if possible, or advise the tech to do so. To think that someone lik this is allowed to practice... tsk. 🙁

 

[VetMed555]

1) i was in shock
2) i only worked there for 1.5 months and i knew if i just said NO to the vet he would have fired me
3) even though i knew in my gut it was wrong, i still looked up to the vet and gave him the benefit of the doubt.

1) That's understandable. One of the girls I used to work with thought the actions of a particular vet were terrible, so she walked out in the middle of her shift. That wasn't a great decision, but she was also in shock. That's the only reason I can partially relate to.
2) He CANNOT fire you for refusing to be an aide in his ILLEGAL actions. The law is on your side, so don't be scared of that. You could sue the crap out of him for wrongful termination (among other things) if he did that. So if you have to testify against him, don't hesitate.
3) That's also understandable, but it's the quickest way to becoming discouraged and losing faith in the whole profession. I mean, what did we write in our personal statements? I'm sure for most of us, COMPASSION was one of the words in it. If you keep looking up to the wrong representatives, it may affect you personally. So learn from this experience as something DEFINITELY NOT GOOD for owners/practice/dog/assistants. And it may not be a bad idea to at least try and not be on the same schedule with this "vet". If this is something you CAN find, what are other things he does that go unnoticed? (sloppy surgeries, wrong treatments, overcharges...). Man, that's a scary thought.🙁

 

[athenaparthenos]

That is disgusting. The worst horror story about a bad vet I've heard in a long time... normally they just treat their support staff terribly or don't do proper sedation/pain management, in the bad stories I hear. This is truly horrendous though. I would definitely speak with the owner and the head tech and see the best way to report this vet. I would also, if the other vet is going to stay, see about finding a new job... I can't imagine a *good* owner not firing the vet straight away. You have plenty of witnesses so there's no reason the owner should doubt you guys vs. the vet, and if the owner doesn't fire/report this vet, I'd be concerned about what other things they might allow.

 

[almostglue]

Wow... shouldn't someone who has EMS experience know a dead body when they see one? 😕

This is somewhat beside the point, but this statement could be construed as offensive (I'm sure it wasn't meant that way). You can say that a body should look dead, but I'm sure a paramedic has seen a lot of dead or about to be dead bodies and there's probably not always a lot of difference. Cyanosis does not equal dead and other than obvious signs of mortality (decapitation, line of lividity, rigor mortis, etc.) EMT's are trained to attempt resuscitation. How many times have you heard a story about someone who woke up in the morgue after being pronounced dead? I would rather attempt resuscitation and give them a chance than to say 'oh, they looked dead so I didn't bother.'

As a paramedic I would, however, expect his medical knowledge to play into his decision about what choice to make about continuing resuscitation. But we all know even level headed, knowledgeable people sometimes lose it when a loved on is on the line. I could come up with a list of the most hardened paramedics, firemen, and policemen that would lose it if their animal was in that situation. But that is not the point in this issue.

Seeing as vets rank in the top three of most trusted professions, if I walk back to see my dog and he was being actively treated/resuscitated, my first thought wouldn't be, 'oh they're lying to me, he's dead and they're just trying to get more money from me.' I wouldn't even think that of a human doctor and I can't say I trust all of them. This event shows some despicable behavior on behalf of that veterinarian and I think your office would be remiss not to report it to the state board.

Sorry for my rant about paramedics, but I don't think anyone (regardless of their education) would think their doctor was lying to them in that situation. I would never trust that doctor again in any situation. It's a disgrace to the profession.

 

[Moonpaw]

Hey almostglue--I don't think anyone was trying to dis EMTs or anything. I'm sure if it had been a human doctor, vet, RN, or pretty much anyone involved in the health professions who deals with dead or near-dead bodies.

And I would definitely like to hear how this turns out! I am absolutely appalled that a vet would even consider pretending that the dog was still alive, and then drag you into it, and I hope he gets what is coming to him!

 

[dreamvet]

k guys. . .so i'm back from my night shift.

here's the deal:

the owner called to talk to me and told me that it was unacceptable what that vet did and that he was especially wrong for making me be a part of it.
they are currently looking for a replacement for him, but until they find one (about a month maybe) I will still have to work for him. the whole staff is keeping an eye out on him and if i ever feel that something he is doing is wrong, that no matter what, i am allowed to just say no and walk away.

he told me that in his 35 years of practicing he's never seen anything like this and he is disgusted by it, but that it's not a reason for me to quit and put my goals in jeapordy.
it also helped that all the techs and receptionists told me that they felt so bad that i had to do that and that they loved working with me and didn't want to see me leave. 😳

i told him that i did not think any less of the clinic or the other doctors but i do not want to work with him. so i will be working ICU instead of rooms with him (so i'm not his little lap dog assistant) on his shifts.

so basically that's it. he is being fired as soon as they find a replacement.
and i know that he was reprimanded cause he came in today and didn't even make eye contact with me. . . .GOOD!

 

[dreamvet]

also. . .i do not know if anything is being reported to the board. i assume so since he is being fired and the whole staff knows what happened.

 

[Lab Man]

Hey almostglue--I don't think anyone was trying to dis EMTs or anything. I'm sure if it had been a human doctor, vet, RN, or pretty much anyone involved in the health professions who deals with dead or near-dead bodies.

And I would definitely like to hear how this turns out! I am absolutely appalled that a vet would even consider pretending that the dog was still alive, and then drag you into it, and I hope he gets what is coming to him!

I think the best way to answer your question is to think of how you'd want that "vet" (poser, dirtbag, piece of trash) to be handled if he pulled this on you and your dog or loved animal. He doesn't deserve to have his license (to say the least), and criminal charges should be filed against that guy. If something like that happened with a human, it'd be all over the news. You definitely don't want to be associated with a place like that. Report that scum bag and get out of there now.

 

[Moonpaw]

that "vet" (poser, dirtbag, piece of trash)

And I know they need a replacement, but really...a nine vet practice can't get by for a month? Maybe I'm just saying this because I don't have to deal with actually running a practice right now, but I wouldn't tolerate that kind of thing.

 

[david594]

I think the best way to answer your question is to think of how you'd want that "vet" (poser, dirtbag, piece of trash) to be handled if he pulled this on you and your dog or loved animal. He doesn't deserve to have his license (to say the least), and criminal charges should be filed against that guy. If something like that happned with a human, it'd be all over the news. You definitely don't want to be associated with a place like that. Report that scum bag and get out of there now.

So all the vets who were present in the room when this happened, raise there hand. Nobody? None of us have any position to say he doesn't deserve his license because most of us arn't vets, and none of us were there.

Just something to keep in mind before we crucify the guy.

 

[Lab Man]

So all the vets who were present in the room when this happened, raise there hand. Nobody? None of us have any position to say he doesn't deserve his license because most of us arn't vets, and none of us were there.

Just something to keep in mind before we crucify the guy.

All of us "have the position" to say he doesn't deserve his license. If you fake an animal's death for financial gain or any other "reason," you shouldn't be a vet. You don't have to "be a vet" to know the difference between right and wrong. Maybe he should have been a used car salesman instead.

 

[twelvetigers]

he told me that in his 35 years of practicing he's never seen anything like this and he is disgusted by it, but that it's not a reason for me to quit and put my goals in jeapordy.
it also helped that all the techs and receptionists told me that they felt so bad that i had to do that and that they loved working with me and didn't want to see me leave. 😳

i told him that i did not think any less of the clinic or the other doctors but i do not want to work with him. so i will be working ICU instead of rooms with him (so i'm not his little lap dog assistant) on his shifts.

Well, it sounds like you are in a good clinic! Thay are taking the proper measures and are being very nice to you. If you can handle being around the guy, then just stay and steer clear as best you can until he's gone.

Such a horrible situation, but at least it's ended up well. (As in, he's losing his job and you can stay.)

 

[LVT2DVM]

1)
2) He CANNOT fire you for refusing to be an aide in his ILLEGAL actions. The law is on your side, so don't be scared of that. You could sue the crap out of him for wrongful termination (among other things) if he did that. So if you have to testify against him, don't hesitate.
🙁

This is off topic but since you brought this up and since we all will hopefully be vets one day and potential practice owners/managers, I thought I would make an observation. Depending on the state that your in...an employer can terminate employment for ANY reason. This is called a RIGHT TO WORK state. Now the vet in this story was not the actual employer..so for that reason he cannot actually fire her. But in other circumstances this would totally up to the employer. For example, I know VetMed555 is going to VMRCVM and Virginia is absolutely a right to work state. Simply put, the employer or the employee can terminate employment without notice at any time for any reason. The only recourse an employee has is to file for unemployment benefits. If it can not be shown that there was due cause for termination then the employee is awarded benefits but not their job back.
Commonwealth of Virginia defines due-cause as...

"An individual shall be disqualified if it is found that he was discharged as a result of misconduct in connection with work. Misconduct exists when it is shown that there was willfull, or substantial disregard of the employer's interests or standards of behavior that the employer has the right to expect of his employee.

This is a pretty broad interpretation in my opinion and Ive seen it used for both the employees and the employers benefit in a wide variety of circumstances. In this example, the vet who acted inappropriately would definately be fired as a result of misconduct. But IMO not the assistant. However, the other interesting thing is that if your employment is governed by an employment contract (as most DVM's are) then you can not even involve the Employment Commission Authorities, they have no jurisdiction. That has to be settled in court (hope you have big pockets). As an uncontracted employee (most techs and assistants) you can hire an attorney and file a wrongful termination claim, but its expensive and in most instances it gets denied 🙁 unless there is a lot of concrete evidence and the claim is based on discrimination. I was appalled when I learned all this back in the day, but as a hospital manager you have to understand all this stuff. It really is set up to benefit the employer not the employee. At least in right to work states. So buyer beware!

 

[alliecat44]

I'm glad the practice manager/owner is disgusted by this incident and he was able to reassure you that this will not be tolerated.

To those who say we weren't there and can't judge, you're right--however, at the very least, this is unethical and needs to be brought before the board. This was deliberate and dishonest with potentially devastating consequences for the owner. I think its pretty safe to sy that someone of this questionable moral character should not have a DEA license, at the very least.

What would have happened if the owners had authorized the treatment?

One of two ways I can make this scenario "make sense"--because the risks of the family realizing the animal was dead are so very great in that situation--is that the veterinarian had perhaps done something to cause the death of the patient and was trying to cover it up.

I have NO IDEA if that is what happened. And we have no information to support this. I'm just trying to figure out what situation would lead to ANYONE thinking this was a possible course of action. (!!)

The practice manager, however, should re-think his plan. This guy of questionable moral character is going to be there for a month. The chances that he is not going to find out that he is going to be fired is VERY slim--especially since all of the staff are aware of the situation. People talk.

This guy could do some serious damage to the pratice in the next month--diverting controlled drugs, committing malpractice, stealing things, etc. He needs to be out the door yesterday. He is a tremendous liability to the practice and these patients.

EDIT: I am in no way condoning this behavior or implying that any sort of extenuating circumstances would excuse it. Rather, I meant to indicate there was a potential larger issue (perhaps causing the dog's death) on top of the obvious one (lying to the owner). And yes, I agree this is an automatic hearing before the state board.

 

[VAgirl]

This guy could do some serious damage to the pratice in the next month--diverting controlled drugs, committing malpractice, stealing things, etc. He needs to be out the door yesterday. He is a tremendous liability to the practice and these patients.

I agree with this 100%. It seems weird to me to say "This person did something so abhorrent that we're firing him for ethical misconduct. However, since we're a little hard up at the moment, we're going to wait a while before doing so." Doesn't ring true. I know other people are saying it's great that the OP works at such an understanding vet clinic, and maybe that's true. But I would be uncomfortable with the fact that this clinic is alright with this vet continuing to be the face of their hospital for the next month while they find his replacement. There have to be other options for how the clinic could deal with being short a vet, and almost any option would seem better than having this guy hang around.

I also agree that this guy should be brought before the state board. Of course we don't know all the facts of what happened in that room, but I don't think that matters so much in this case. As long as the one baseline fact is true (that he pretended to the client that the dog was still alive when the dog was in fact dead), nothing else matters. There are ABSOLUTELY NO justifications for this action. It is unethical in the extreme. Animals are unable to report back on the actions of their caretakers, including veterinarians, so I would argue that of all the health care professions, we have the greatest burden of monitoring our own ethical conduct. This man has proven himself incapable of doing so.

 

[dreamvet]

just a comment on some of the questions you guys are posing:

- the reason he was no immediately dismissed is because he works emergency hours. that means that there are two emergency vets and they switch off weekly. so for one week, one of them works 7 straight days from 6pm-7am. firing him without a replacement would mean NO emergency clinic.
- also. . .in terms of charging for treatment if the dog was still alive. everyone at the clinic knew what was going on (I made it known) including the receptionist. they decided not to treat, but even when she discharged them she refused to charge them for any oxygen or anything because she knew we didn't use it. everyone at the clinic is amazing, on the ball, and keepin an eye out for him!
- it sucked for sure, but maybe it's good that i'm still working with him a little while, because with the permission of the clinic owner not to follow orders from him, maybe i can get a handle and make sure this stuff doesn't happen again until he's gone 🙂

also. . .thanks for all the comments you guys!!!!! i really needed people to talk to. and i couldn't talk to anyone here or any friends cause they know where i work and i didn't want to slander the clinic name.

 

[dreamvet]

also. . .i know this sounds weird 😳. . .but a lot of the techs at the clinic are already veterinarians (just not board certified in the US yet). other than this being really cool because i basically work and learn all my techniques from vets so i learn a million ways to do things. i think they are being put on the shifts with this guy as well to keep an eye on him and his treatments.

i think the owner is doing everything possible he can right now without closing down the emergency clinic. we especially need it there because it is in a low income area and a LOT of abused/neglected and "fighting" dogs come in need of immediate help (in addition to the standard rat poisons/hit by cars and gastro complaints).

 

[alliecat44]

just a comment on some of the questions you guys are posing:

- the reason he was no immediately dismissed is because he works emergency hours. that means that there are two emergency vets and they switch off weekly. so for one week, one of them works 7 straight days from 6pm-7am. firing him without a replacement would mean NO emergency clinic.
- also. . .in terms of charging for treatment if the dog was still alive. everyone at the clinic knew what was going on (I made it known) including the receptionist. they decided not to treat, but even when she discharged them she refused to charge them for any oxygen or anything because she knew we didn't use it. everyone at the clinic is amazing, on the ball, and keepin an eye out for him!
- it sucked for sure, but maybe it's good that i'm still working with him a little while, because with the permission of the clinic owner not to follow orders from him, maybe i can get a handle and make sure this stuff doesn't happen again until he's gone 🙂 /quote]

--> Firing him without a replacement=more shifts for the existing emergency doctors, abbreviated hours of the emergency clinic, the owner coming back to fill in some shifts, or the hiring of a relief veterinarian. This is NOT an excuse for not firing him. If the existing ER docs knew about the situation, they would/should be more than willing to work overtime rather than have this guy there. If family/personal obligations prevent this, then hiring relief staff or shortening the clinic hours is appropriate.

--> In terms of the staff not charging: I'm glad the owner didn't have to pay. From your description, I'm not sure that this is not enabling the veteriarian's misconduct (I have a feeling it's not, but this part of your post wasn't clear and I thought the point should be made 🙂 ).

--> It's nice that you think you can somehow deter this man from unethical behavior, but the reality is that he is the doctor and he is in charge. He will find a way to break the law and/or harm patients and/or clients regardless of what you do.

This is NOT A BURDEN you should even think about accepting. Supervising this veterinarian is not your job.

I don't want you to get burned out by guilt over this or heaven forbid, the next thing this guy does that is so horribly wrong.

 

[alliecat44]

i think the owner is doing everything possible he can right now without closing down the emergency clinic. we especially need it there because it is in a low income area and a LOT of abused/neglected and "fighting" dogs come in need of immediate help (in addition to the standard rat poisons/hit by cars and gastro complaints).

The fact that the clinic is in an underserved area is an independent variable and completely unrelated to whether this vet should be fired.

One has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

 

[dreamvet]

i semi-agree with you. I found it hard to believe he wasn't immediately fired, but it is not my place to argue/give advice to a vet that has owned clinics for over 3 decades. at this point, all i can do is keep working, doing my best, and i already let them know that if i'm ever put in a questionable situation again i am out of there. i made a few phone calls and i still have job opportunities elsewhere.

the owner also found out about this at 7am, and he was booked solid with surgeries from 8am-7pm so i'm hoping/assuming he went home at night and tried to figure out a plan. he told me he was already talking to two vets to hire them but that it "might" take a while. . . .

as far as what i can do, i'm doing it for now, i'm doing my best.
but i really appreciate all the advice and perspectives on all the aspects of the ethics.

 

[alliecat44]

i semi-agree with you. I found it hard to believe he wasn't immediately fired, but it is not my place to argue/give advice to a vet that has owned clinics for over 3 decades. at this point, all i can do is keep working, doing my best, and i already let them know that if i'm ever put in a questionable situation again i am out of there. i made a few phone calls and i still have job opportunities elsewhere.

the owner also found out about this at 7am, and he was booked solid with surgeries from 8am-7pm so i'm hoping/assuming he went home at night and tried to figure out a plan. he told me he was already talking to two vets to hire them but that it "might" take a while. . . .

as far as what i can do, i'm doing it for now, i'm doing my best.
but i really appreciate all the advice and perspectives on all the aspects of the ethics.

Please don't take my comments to mean that there is anything more you can/should do. I think talking to the owner and being honest with him--and refusing to work there if it means working with this veterinarian--is pretty much the only thing you can do, save for making it known that you're willing to testify before the board if need be. The only other thing I would do is write down all the details NOW (as was suggested by someone else).

This is NOT YOUR RESPONSIBILITY. You are a tech/assistant. From your posts, I get the impression thatyou are taking on more of the responsibility for this than you should. You have analyzed why you followed his instructions, and this lesson, though difficult, will serve you VERY well in the future. It's not your job to tell the practice owner what to do, and I apologize if it came across that way.

Thse are aspects of the case that I feel are important to consider as future veterinarians, but it is not up to you to save or crucify this guy.

🙂

 

[VelcroSky]

You said the dog's owners decided to euthanize. Did they get charged for that?

 

[dreamvet]

no, they decided not to treat or to put down, they just wanted to take him home.

he faked that the dog was dying when they told him that, and they took the dog home dead.

 

[alliecat44]

Then how did the dog really die?

 

[dreamvet]

the dog was epileptic and was having seizures at home. they brought him in when he stopped seizing. when he came in he was not breathing and had a very faint heart beat. we intubated, gave epi . . . we could not save him.

15 minutes post-mortem. . . .the whole "show" began.

 

[alliecat44]

What was the veterinarian's motivation for lying instead of stating that the patient died??

This is so weird.

I don't see how it would be beneficial financially (though that's the obvious answer). You can't give a dead dog anything.

?? what the hell?

 

[dreamvet]

all i know is that he handed them the bill and told them that the dog was still alive and that there was a slight chance it would wake up.

i don't know if he would have faked that he did do a treatment. . .but i wouldn't put it past him. he did try to charge them for oxygen when we never even used it on him when he was alive.

i didn't have a convo with the doc about his motives, and i don't intend to.

 

[zpinkpanther]

Hey almostglue--I don't think anyone was trying to dis EMTs or anything. I'm sure if it had been a human doctor, vet, RN, or pretty much anyone involved in the health professions who deals with dead or near-dead bodies.

You're right, I didn't mean any offense. I've been a tech for about 6 years, have seen lots of dead or near-dead animals, and sometimes it is hard to tell the difference. My point was that I'd think that someone with any sort of medical training/experience would, if they looked hard enough, see something that distinguishes death from near-death, such as pulse, breathing, temperature, etc. (I think it would also depend on how long the dog's been dead...) On the other hand, I agree that he was probably very upset and not thinking that the vet would tell him that his dog was still alive when it's really dead, so that would be why he didn't realize.

Again, I'm sorry that you took offense, because that wasn't my intention.

 

[alliecat44]

all i know is that he handed them the bill and told them that the dog was still alive and that there was a slight chance it would wake up.

i don't know if he would have faked that he did do a treatment. . .but i wouldn't put it past him. he did try to charge them for oxygen when we never even used it on him when he was alive.

i didn't have a convo with the doc about his motives, and i don't intend to.

And I don't think you should. I was just wondering if he had indicated something.

 

[Bill59]

I had the same question, why would the DVM do this? He's apparently not an owner so what incentive does he have to run up the bill? Is he paid a percentage of fees generated?

I suppose anything's possible, but I really have a hard time understanding why a doctor would do this.

As for everyone criticizing the guy, I think it's unprofessional to second guess anther doctor's medical decisions and judgments in a particular case. But if the facts are as presented in the OP, this has nothing to do with medical judgement. It's outright fraud and one of the sleaziest things I've ever heard of. You don't need a DVM to know that.

 

[zpinkpanther]

It seems like he's wasn't planning on actually treating the dog, but rather "treating" it, as in charging the owners for a treatment/hospitalization that won't actually be done? That's the impression I got.

 

[dreamvet]

from what i learned yesterday, vets are guaranteed a min salary but are paid according to amount of cases as well. . . .there's the motive.

whether he intended to charge for treatment or not is irrelevant to whether he was right or wrong. the dog was already stiff and cold when they came in. and the dog came in as an emergency, also the vets do the estimates themselves. so. . .we tried to revive the dog, the dog died, he went and wrote the estimate. what was the point of writing an estimate for a dog that was already dead?
end of story.

 

[alliecat44]

Exactly--what was this guy trying to do?? Good lord.

From the further clarification (writing an estimate, etc), certainly sounds as though he wanted the money.

Horrible horrible horrible....sorry you had to go through this. 🙁

 

[dreamvet]

if anything, this experience will help me be a better vet.

 

[Karazy]

if anything, this experience will help me be a better vet.

Wow. What an interesting thread to happen upon. To second so many people's comments - this is just incredible and disturbing.

However, now that it happened, I think it is good to look on the bright side. This will help make you a better vet. Your initial instincts were dead on, you just didn't trust them enough because you were in shock that this could actually be happeneing, relatively new to the practice, and trusting the ethical standards of the vet over your own. Now you know to trust your moral instincts if you are ever in an ethically questionable situation again. What a valuable lesson - and what a crappy way to learn it.