Need Advice On Ortho

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GonnaBeADoc0000

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So here is where I am at:

class of 18, MS3
Came into med school wanting to do ortho, came in 4.0 student very strong. Med school kicked my butt, i never became the top scorer on any test in any class. First year I didn't "honor" a single class, only high passed 2 and passed 2... and then second year we switched to full pass fail and i scored around the median score in my class (getting like 80+ percent scores on the tests, the tests were NBME tests).

So i lost confidence and figured no way in hell i can get into ortho and no way my step score would be high enough. Busted my ass on step for 2 months and somehow got a 258.

Now i'm considering ortho. I did some meaningless research under one of the department chairs in ortho before but it didn't go anywhere. I know n eed research. Can someone please break down everything i should do to be competitive?

Research, AIs, networking, attending forums... etc.. can someone just provide genuine legit advice?
 
GonnaBeADoc0000 said:
So here is where I am at:

class of 18, MS3
Came into med school wanting to do ortho, came in 4.0 student very strong. Med school kicked my butt, i never became the top scorer on any test in any class. First year I didn't "honor" a single class, only high passed 2 and passed 2... and then second year we switched to full pass fail and i scored around the median score in my class (getting like 80+ percent scores on the tests, the tests were NBME tests).

So i lost confidence and figured no way in hell i can get into ortho and no way my step score would be high enough. Busted my ass on step for 2 months and somehow got a 258.

Now i'm considering ortho. I did some meaningless research under one of the department chairs in ortho before but it didn't go anywhere. I know n eed research. Can someone please break down everything i should do to be competitive?

Research, AIs, networking, attending forums... etc.. can someone just provide genuine legit advice?
Click to expand...
Your score is legit. As long as you can talk about research and get involved in another project now, you should be ok pending other factors.
 
Lol oh lord, why do people like psai exist in medicine? I'm not a new guy. My old username was too identifying, I made that account during mcat time and application time. I definitely contributed. If it's your way of asking how I got 258, then say that. The reason I haven't posted a how to get a 258 is because I was shocked at my score too and don't know if my advice would help.


Anyway... I just don't understand the concept of AI.. How do you do an AI in fourth year if you apply for interviews in early fourth year. How do those two things play together?
 
I've read average of 6.7 pubs to match... Does anyone know if that's even possible in a year with doing shelves and rotations? And also.. Are there specific kinds of research I can target to inc likelihood of publishing in a timely manner? Or specific factors I should look at before signing up for it so I don't get sucked in a project that is 10 years long?
 
Side note, just looked at psai's old posts... Tell me why the dude posting sarcastic ass snark remarks on every post he can get his hands on.. Is coming at me for not contributing... What have you contributed exactly
 
GonnaBeADoc0000 said:
I've read average of 6.7 pubs to match... Does anyone know if that's even possible in a year with doing shelves and rotations? And also.. Are there specific kinds of research I can target to inc likelihood of publishing in a timely manner? Or specific factors I should look at before signing up for it so I don't get sucked in a project that is 10 years long?
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6.7 pubs doesn't exactly mean 6.7 real peer reviewed pubs in journals. Our school had a summer research poster session that I made a poster for, that counts as a pub. I then presented that same poster at a departmental poster session, another pub. I had an oral presentation, another pub. So I only have 1 actual peer reviewed publication but my ERAS application says 4 pubs.

ERAS has multiple types of pubs: Poster, oral presentation, peer reviewed article, non-peer reviewed article (like an editorial or something similar), etc.
 
GonnaBeADoc0000 said:
Side note, just looked at psai's old posts... Tell me why the dude posting sarcastic ass snark remarks on every post he can get his hands on.. Is coming at me for not contributing... What have you contributed exactly
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There's only 1 person I have ignored on SDN... some people don't have anything better to do.
 
GonnaBeADoc0000 said:
Side note, just looked at psai's old posts... Tell me why the dude posting sarcastic ass snark remarks on every post he can get his hands on.. Is coming at me for not contributing... What have you contributed exactly
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While psai is sometimes a bit salty, his sarcasm here is not without merit. You seem to lack basic information that could be found with searches or by talking to almost anyone in your department...which is something you should be doing. Still, I need something to do before I pass out post call.

You sound to be by the numbers very competitive for ortho. You are starting third year, so realize that those grades are very important. Work hard on your clerkships, be likable, and study hard for the shelfs.

As said above, the "pubs" section of ERAS consists of posters, pubs, presentations. I had like 10, even though I only have 3 peer reviewed publications. Get involved with your ortho program, clinical research isn't that hard to get some CV boosters on, and if your programs department is good, they are usually happy to have driven med students help them finish some projects. Don't let your clinical grades suffer, though.

Fourth year usually starts in June or July for most schools. This means for most ortho (or other competitive specialties) that you do a home sub-I, and two away sub-Is (or AIs, whatever you call it) in July, August, September. You will submit your ERAS application September 15th. I believe that ortho interviews late, meaning late november, december, january.

Getting involved with your home program is key. You also need to not be a douche. If they like you, they will help you network, they will help you do research, they will take you to conferences where you present research in between partying with residents and meeting chairs of other schools. Ortho will want 3-4 LORs from academic orthopedic surgeons you have done sub-Is with. Many of those attendings on your sub-Is will base their opinion of you by how you interact with residents/what residents say about you. Again, don't be a douche.

And finally, <insert joke about bench more than your step score, be jacked, take creatine dumps, etc.>
 
psychhopefull2016 said:
6.7 pubs doesn't exactly mean 6.7 real peer reviewed pubs in journals. Our school had a summer research poster session that I made a poster for, that counts as a pub. I then presented that same poster at a departmental poster session, another pub. I had an oral presentation, another pub. So I only have 1 actual peer reviewed publication but my ERAS application says 4 pubs.

ERAS has multiple types of pubs: Poster, oral presentation, peer reviewed article, non-peer reviewed article (like an editorial or something similar), etc.
Click to expand...

Wait, really? This counts?
 
I'd say in likable. Not sure how I'm gonna do in clinicals haven't taken a shelf yet. Definitely scared lol. It's so difficult to find time to study for shelves while also doing 10 hour shifts haha. But that's life I guess.
 
GonnaBeADoc0000 said:
Lol oh lord, why do people like psai exist in medicine? I'm not a new guy. My old username was too identifying, I made that account during mcat time and application time. I definitely contributed. If it's your way of asking how I got 258, then say that. The reason I haven't posted a how to get a 258 is because I was shocked at my score too and don't know if my advice would help.


Anyway... I just don't understand the concept of AI.. How do you do an AI in fourth year if you apply for interviews in early fourth year. How do those two things play together?
Click to expand...

Brah I'm right here you don't need to passive aggressively talk about me like I'm not

And sorry was I supposed to be impressed by your step 1 score? Why would I care?
 
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Sorry, I just found it hard to believe that someone who spent their free time trolling med students could possibly be a doctor already. My mistake for assuming.

Also psai... Do you know what passive aggressive means? Cause I kinda directly took your name. Lol. Sorry for not "quoting" you.
 
idkididk said:
Wait, really? This counts?
Click to expand...

Yes it does. Which is why most people have multiple pubs. Does my tiny poster count like a first author nature poster, heck no. Does it count more than nothing? Yes. So the raw number of pubs average is artificially high.
 
So basically my research was a poster we had to present. I spent the entire research time waiting on the patient data to come out and kept getting told wait next week wait next week. Ultimately I got no data and had to just present on what I wanted to do...

So that research is basically worthless correct? And that doesn't count for anything even though I made a poster and presented?
 
GonnaBeADoc0000 said:
So basically my research was a poster we had to present. I spent the entire research time waiting on the patient data to come out and kept getting told wait next week wait next week. Ultimately I got no data and had to just present on what I wanted to do...

So that research is basically worthless correct? And that doesn't count for anything even though I made a poster and presented?
Click to expand...

Residency directors love that stuff 👍
 
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GonnaBeADoc0000 said:
So basically my research was a poster we had to present. I spent the entire research time waiting on the patient data to come out and kept getting told wait next week wait next week. Ultimately I got no data and had to just present on what I wanted to do...

So that research is basically worthless correct? And that doesn't count for anything even though I made a poster and presented?
Click to expand...

No. It counts as a research project and a poster, both of which are sections on the ERAS application. It isnt high end research and other students will have more but it's better than nothing
 
On the ERAS app you need to provide a pub med ID for anything you want to claim to be peer reviewed. For posters you need a title, authors, a conference name, and a date. I presented at "psych research day" which is a local departmental conference and that counts as a pub.
 
So I'm assuming you had "ortho poster" at "x med school research day" which counts
 
Oh nice. And do you think stuff like that counts for anything to programs? Or do they look at them as artificial inflation D too
 
Psai said:
Brah I'm right here you don't need to passive aggressively talk about me like I'm not

And sorry was I supposed to be impressed by your step 2 score? It's a way easier test than step 1. Why would I care?
Click to expand...

258 on step 1...read more carefully bud
 
GonnaBeADoc0000 said:
Oh nice. And do you think stuff like that counts for anything to programs? Or do they look at them as artificial inflation D too
Click to expand...

I've gotten to the point where I can't speak for your specialty and I don't want to give you false info. I'm applying for psych. The PD at my school told me it was great stuff to add. But I'm applying for a less competitive thing and I don't want to stear you wrong
 
Merely said:
258 on step 1...read more carefully bud
Click to expand...

Lol if you're trying to imply I'm a gunner and cocky about my score you're wrong.

1. I pretty much clearly stated I was beyond shocked at my score. Aka. Not a gunner. I spent most of my free time hanging out with friends and my gf. Spent 1.5 weeks on studying and 2 months of legit step studying. And I don't know how I got the score. The poor of sharing my score in the first place is to give advisers an idea of where I stand. My name isn't attached to this so even if people think someone named "gonnabeadoc0000" is brilliant it doesn't benefit me in anyway in the real world.

2. I always thought the era of pretentious douchebag doctors ended with interviews the way they are now and the focus on being a genuinely nice guy. But I guess not.

3. Life tip: get off sdn if you're lurking for opportunities to make snarky remarks that are actually idiotic. Such as calling someone passive aggressive after they clearly took your name. Sdn is for people that actually wanna help other people. I think you know that.
 
@GonnaBeADoc0000

I posted this in another thread with someone considering ENT, but I'll say it again here. I am in the exact same situation. Doubted myself, focused on other specialties, crushed Step 1, now want to know what I need to do. You won't really get helpful answers on SDN. I would suggest talking to people at your school who successfully matched into ortho to get a sense for what they did. You will usually find quite a few people who decided late and they will give you a very good idea of what needs to be done. If you continue to do well in MS3 it just take a few quick clinical research projects to "catch up". I am personally waiting to finish my surgery clerkship before I aggressively seek out research. Fortunately for me that is early. When is your surgery clerkship?

Its frustrating that good advice is hard to come by on SDN (although there have been some good posts in this thread). Its either snark and sarcasm or someone just posting a link to Charting the Outcomes. I know people like you and me realize charting the outcomes exists but we want a little bit of context and anecdotes to understand that data a bit more. Example: I know that in my Step 1 category like everyone matches but what if they decide late and don't do research? I can look at the research category and see that matching is much harder without research but are the people who didn't do research also usually people with poor scores? Its hard to derive much meaning from that data as it applies to individual situations. Again, I think the information you are seeking will come from MS4s at your school. Once you have talked to them and have seriously decided you may go down this path then I think it is ok to start talking to you department who can give you even more information.
 
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lmao wtf do you people want, some super secret special way to set up your application that no one else knows about?

Do well on tests, get honors, do research, get in touch with your home department, befriend some attendings, be a nice person. If you do these things, you will likely match. No one can tell you that you have a 95% chance of matching with two pubs vs a 90% chance with one pub or anything like that. You already know what you need, what more do you want? There's no way to guarantee that you will match.
 
Psai.. I'm gonna reply to you one last time. When Donald Juan responded he explained the timelines of doing AIs.. He explained the discrepancy of 6.7 pubs and what that actually means... Etc. that is what I came to ask for. I already have the step score. I know I need research. But I didn't understand how I would have 7 publications in a year or when to do AIs. Anyway good luck on your future medical career.
 
GonnaBeADoc0000 said:
Psai.. I'm gonna reply to you one last time. When Donald Juan responded he explained the timelines of doing AIs.. He explained the discrepancy of 6.7 pubs and what that actually means... Etc. that is what I came to ask for. I already have the step score. I know I need research. But I didn't understand how I would have 7 publications in a year or when to do AIs. Anyway good luck on your future medical career.
Click to expand...
I would also assume that many people who do ortho also have some undergrad or gap year pubs contributing to at least part of that 6.7.
 
GonnaBeADoc0000 said:
Psai.. I'm gonna reply to you one last time. When Donald Juan responded he explained the timelines of doing AIs.. He explained the discrepancy of 6.7 pubs and what that actually means... Etc. that is what I came to ask for. I already have the step score. I know I need research. But I didn't understand how I would have 7 publications in a year or when to do AIs. Anyway good luck on your future medical career.
Click to expand...

Which is why I suggested a search. When you're on the wards, do everyone a favor and don't ask a question that can be easily googled.
 
what's this fascination with ortho? i really don't get it.
i have MS1 wanting orthopedics.. sigh!
GonnaBeADoc0000 said:
Then again 258 is like the 96th percentile. So idk how many people take step and how manny score 258. If like 200 score that then that doesn't make me feel better 🙁 haha
Click to expand...

dude! we get it, you scored high on step 1! cool!
you'll definitely get an interview.. but that's about it.
you'll need more to get the spot.

your 258 is not that impressive vs a 234 MD PhD grad with research on "the quest toward limb regeneration. a regenerative engineering approach"
he and our Dean ( ortho guy from Harvard ) did this research and got some good outputs.
and needless to say got a good LOR from the dean too.
 
Lol why do People on this page get so weird about step scores? Why do y'all act like everyone that puts their score out is trying to show off? Why can't you give someone the benefit of doubt. Like I said before and I'll reiterate... I'm not showing off. I even said I don't get how I got the score. I was hoping to break 240. I made a new account so people wouldn't know who I am. I have no interested in being praised. I was making a general point that yes 14 people not matching sounds good but if few people had that score then it's meaningless.

Lol, thanks for the advice.
 
psychhopefull2016 said:
Yes it does. Which is why most people have multiple pubs. Does my tiny poster count like a first author nature poster, heck no. Does it count more than nothing? Yes. So the raw number of pubs average is artificially high.
Click to expand...

I've always wondered how people seem to get so many publications out there during med school, even if it's just clinical research. I'm not looking to go into ortho but this is good to know. Thanks!
 
GonnaBeADoc0000 said:
Lol why do People on this page get so weird about step scores? Why do y'all act like everyone that puts their score out is trying to show off? Why can't you give someone the benefit of doubt. Like I said before and I'll reiterate... I'm not showing off. I even said I don't get how I got the score. I was hoping to break 240. I made a new account so people wouldn't know who I am. I have no interested in being praised. I was making a general point that yes 14 people not matching sounds good but if few people had that score then it's meaningless.

Lol, thanks for the advice.
Click to expand...

No, we're not being weird about the scores.
we're just telling you that a score may get you an invite BUT it's never a guarantee.
since a lot of factors are considered when a program ranks an applicant.

Take my case for example, i got a 246 and applying for Family Medicine.
most students would think that i'm a shoe in already and i can pick and choose any program right? Not exactly.
i'm an east coaster applying mostly in California and about 4 programs back home
i got matched to my 2nd choice, but still in California.

i believe that the absence of ties to California, which was often asked directly/ indirectly during the interview was the weakness of my application. So on my 2nd and succeeding IVs, i made it known that i have intentions of staying here permanently.. which is true anyway.
 
markrivers said:
No, we're not being weird about the scores.
we're just telling you that a score may get you an invite BUT it's never a guarantee.
since a lot of factors are considered when a program ranks an applicant.

Take my case for example, i got a 246 and applying for Family Medicine.
most students would think that i'm a shoe in already and i can pick and choose any program right? Not exactly.
i'm an east coaster applying mostly in California and about 4 programs back home
i got matched to my 2nd choice, but still in California.

i believe that the absence of ties to California, which was often asked directly/ indirectly during the interview was the weakness of my application. So on my 2nd and succeeding IVs, i made it known that i have intentions of staying here permanently.. which is true anyway.
Click to expand...

No I understand. You're right abut that I know for a fact that even a 270 wouldn't guarantee an acceptance. But I just feel like people assume I'm showing off or something when that's not my intention. I appreciate the insight.
 
OP I would actively work towards getting onto a few projects if you could. I got a friend, not orthopedics though, who managed to get several publications throughout third year while still honoring rotations by being in the right place and knowing the right people. I also know a few students who did all the right things and had problems finding projects at all. Summary: if you can get on a project don't turn it down. Congrats on the score, now just back up the step score with clinical grades and you should be fine.
 
I would think that the "meaningless research" that you did with ortho before will help you get set up with some ortho research or electives now, as that will demonstrate that you had an ongoing interest in ortho. So set up an appointment with the ortho dept chair or residency director and see what they suggest.

You would be amazed at what a letter of recommendation or phone call from the right person can do for you when match time rolls around.
 
Follow your dream and become an orthopedic surgeon
 
I read a ridiculous post that general orthopedics is being "phased out" on the podiatry thread. Any orthopedist is fully capable of foot and ankle surgery. Who are these optometrists of the foot, and why don't they simply do what surgeons do - A residency. There are no shortcuts.
 
croak said:
I read a ridiculous post that general orthopedics is being "phased out" on the podiatry thread. Any orthopedist is fully capable of foot and ankle surgery. Who are these optometrists of the foot, and why don't they simply do what surgeons do - A residency. There are no shortcuts.
Click to expand...

They do have some extra training that they call a residency but it doesn't really resemble a surgical residency.
 
What that guy said is that it may undergo restructuring so that everyone specializes, rather than having a general orthopedic track. I'm not saying that's true, just putting what he said in context.

Also, if y'all are talking about Podiatric residencies, they are three to four year residencies in JCAHO hospitals where the podiatrists rotate through internal medicine, infectious disease, orthopedic, vascular surgery, general surgery, pediátrics, emergency departments, etc. along with the MD and DO residents in addition to doing podiatry specific rotations. So... I'm not sure what that says about the MDs and DOs we rotate with, but I'll be sure to inform them that they're probably not in a real residency.
 
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bobtheweazel said:
What that guy said is that it may undergo restructuring so that everyone specializes, rather than having a general orthopedic track. I'm not saying that's true, just putting what he said in context.

Also, if y'all are talking about Podiatric residencies, they are three to four year residencies in JCAHO hospitals where the podiatrists rotate through internal medicine, infectious disease, orthopedic, vascular surgery, general surgery, pediátrics, emergency departments, etc. along with the MD and DO residents in addition to doing podiatry specific rotations. So... I'mnot sure what that says about the MDs and DOs we rotate with, but I'll be sure to información them that they're probably not in a real residency.
Click to expand...

lmao the fact that they rotate through all of these unrelated services makes me think that they are treated more like med students than actual residents. Unless you think that these podiatry "residents" are treating stemis in the ED, putting in avfs in esrd, taking out inflamed gallbladders
 
Psai said:
lmao the fact that they rotate through all of these unrelated services makes me think that they are treated more like med students than actual residents. Unless you think that these podiatry "residents" are treating stemis in the ED, putting in avfs in esrd, taking out inflamed gallbladders
Click to expand...

They really aren't all that unrelated. Every surgical specialty rotates thru Gen surg (where you learn to care for surgical patients). Vascular makes sense as well since the foot is indeed vascularized. Foot ulcers = infectious disease, and the ED sees foot trauma. Doesn't seem that far-fetched if you think about it.
 
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