Need help deciding undergrad school

[thegermanoncologist]

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Hello! I'm a senior in high school and have been accepted into a few universities, I need help in making a school choice that will give me the opportunity to position myself for getting into a MD/PhD program. My choices for undergrad are: Michigan State University Dept. of Molecular Biology and Biochemistry, IUPUI School of Science, and IU Bloomington University Division. I'm still waiting on other decisions, but for the purposes of this let's assume those are the only choices I'll get period. Can anyone give me some advice on which to choose?

 

[AllBleedingStops]

I'm new here and was just passing through casually when I noticed that you had IU in your list and thought I would mention that I was an IUB undergrad. I am not going MD/PhD but was admitted to MD and DO programs. I obviously have no experience with IUPUI or Mich State but IUB is fantastic for research. You will need to get in with a professor as early as possible though and some are specifically seeking freshmen/sophomores so they have multiple years to build a working relationship and have long term help on projects. In the end, though, pressing for early contact and identification of a mentor can lead to some fantastic outcomes.

The only bump in the road I see for you is that you said "University Division." While this doesn't preclude you from doing research, it is easier if you are a direct admit to biology (or biochem or whatever). I was a direct admit to biology and therefore had access to some more advanced courses slightly earlier than some of my University Division classmates (in some cases - please note this was not true in every instance). I also had the benefit of coming in with a large amount of AP and dual credit courses as well as test out credit which allowed me to move up faster. I chose to diversify and picked up a some minors but you could easily translate those advancements into advanced courses, independent study, and lab credits.

You can do research anywhere and can get into medical school from most any undergraduate institution that has science courses. The bigger factor is you and the effort you put in. Balance all the factors that everyone tells you - grades being the biggest thing (even keel, low numbers of B/B- or lower, some challenging courses, some diversification into arts or writing or other topics) with smatterings of volunteering and leadership and a hefty dose of medical exposure. The biggest challenge for you will be adding some meaningful research experience to the mix so that you can confidently talk about the work you did and the fields that interest you during your applications.

While I do not want to discourage you, I would also ask you to consider your reasons for wanting to do the MD/PhD and discuss them with someone who has a Phd and someone who has an MD or DO so that you can gain some perspective. What fields of research are you interested in at this time? Would you consider MD only if you were unable to gain an Md/PhD spot (there are less MD/PhD spots, making competition fierce)?

From the perspective of someone who has been in your position, just recognize that you are talking about Big10 institutions so the quality is fairly equal for most subjects. You aren't really deciding between Stanford and community college here - it is apples and apples, not apples and oranges. Go to the one that makes you the happiest. You can find the research experience when you get there.

 

[thegermanoncologist]

I'm new here and was just passing through casually when I noticed that you had IU in your list and thought I would mention that I was an IUB undergrad. I am not going MD/PhD but was admitted to MD and DO programs. I obviously have no experience with IUPUI or Mich State but IUB is fantastic for research. You will need to get in with a professor as early as possible though and some are specifically seeking freshmen/sophomores so they have multiple years to build a working relationship and have long term help on projects. In the end, though, pressing for early contact and identification of a mentor can lead to some fantastic outcomes.

The only bump in the road I see for you is that you said "University Division." While this doesn't preclude you from doing research, it is easier if you are a direct admit to biology (or biochem or whatever). I was a direct admit to biology and therefore had access to some more advanced courses slightly earlier than some of my University Division classmates (in some cases - please note this was not true in every instance). I also had the benefit of coming in with a large amount of AP and dual credit courses as well as test out credit which allowed me to move up faster. I chose to diversify and picked up a some minors but you could easily translate those advancements into advanced courses, independent study, and lab credits. I was direct admit to both IUPUI and MSU.

You can do research anywhere and can get into medical school from most any undergraduate institution that has science courses. The bigger factor is you and the effort you put in. Balance all the factors that everyone tells you - grades being the biggest thing (even keel, low numbers of B/B- or lower, some challenging courses, some diversification into arts or writing or other topics) with smatterings of volunteering and leadership and a hefty dose of medical exposure. The biggest challenge for you will be adding some meaningful research experience to the mix so that you can confidently talk about the work you did and the fields that interest you during your applications.

While I do not want to discourage you, I would also ask you to consider your reasons for wanting to do the MD/PhD and discuss them with someone who has a Phd and someone who has an MD or DO so that you can gain some perspective. What fields of research are you interested in at this time? Would you consider MD only if you were unable to gain an Md/PhD spot (there are less MD/PhD spots, making competition fierce)?

From the perspective of someone who has been in your position, just recognize that you are talking about Big10 institutions so the quality is fairly equal for most subjects. You aren't really deciding between Stanford and community college here - it is apples and apples, not apples and oranges. Go to the one that makes you the happiest. You can find the research experience when you get there.

I'm very interested in doing research in cancer biology, molecular biology, medicinal chemistry, and maybe biotechnology. I know there are some areas that mix most or all of those areas, that's why I listed so many. I would consider the MD only, but I'd be concerned with cost at that point because I wouldn't get the stipend. Eventually I might go into some research related to the brain and those other areas, but I can't imagine there are very many undergrad opportunities for something so advanced and specific. So I do want to be a doctor, no matter what, but I also really want to be a scientist so getting the dual degree would be ideal. I know MDs can do some research, but they can't really do as much as a MD/PhD in terms of publishing power and having an entire lab at thier disposal. I think the greatest impact could be made with the dual degree, and I want to make a significant impact. As for high school, I will also be coming in with a SIGNIFICANT amount of biomedical science lab courses, AP Bio, and AP Chem experience as well as other types of lab science courses. I was direct admit to both IUPUI and MSU schools of science.

 

[AllBleedingStops]

Any of those schools will work for those areas but you should realize one is not like the others. Medicinal chemistry is a field unto itself and I doubt you would be able to even approach it at an undergrad level. You may also find it to be hard to get into with the limited time you have during medical school, even with the PhD "break" that most schools use to allow you to obtain both degrees.

Biotech and molecular are both involved in cancer biology.

Significant impact how?

Finally, I am sure you can be a competitive MD/PhD candidate if you work hard but MD or PhD alone can also publish. I am curious what you are looking for out of the MD/PhD that you could not achieve with the PhD alone. Again, not discouraging you, I am simply playing devil's advocate.

 

[thegermanoncologist]

Sorry, with medicinal chemistry I was referring specifically to the undergrad concentration that IUPUI offers for the Chemistry BS degree. With significant impact, I meant developing new drugs or drug delivery systems that would allow a much higher rate of survival in cancer patients. I want to be a Neurosurgeon, I want to change people's lives for the better when they are on their last legs, so a person with a brain tumor who is unable to walk as a result can go out 3-6 months later and go dancing with their partner. You can't do that with a PhD. I don't think I would be prepared enough for the kind of research I want to do without getting a PhD, that's why I want both. I would have to learn more of what MD/PhD neurosurgeon real world schedules look like before I actually decide on that program, but from what I've read it's fairly common in neurosurgery (more common than some others).

 

[AllBleedingStops]

I like that you have lofty goals. I think you should focus on the task in front of you before looking that far into the future. Visit the schools and see which you like the best. Go with that one. My vote is IUB.

I just want to point something out. Developing new drug delivery systems occurs on a scale of years with a team and collaborations and full time work. It is highly unlikely you would be a practicing surgeon and developing new drugs (a different challenge than the other 2 things you mentioned). You could remove tumors and do research on their surgical treatments or pathology. Or you could work on drugs (the pathway for most new drugs is about 10 years of development and testing). But probably not both. Just a consideration. Work hard and party harder in college!

 

[longhaul3]

It is probably not worth going MD-PhD for the stipend. The waiver+stipend is in many cases a net loss given the years of MD practice you give up for the PhD, and then MD-PhDs often (almost always) work in academic positions which are as a general rule less lucrative than other practice settings.

You do not need a PhD to be an academic neurosurgeon. It is common for neurosurgeons interested in brain tumor biology to ally with an MD-PhD pathologist or PhD basic scientist in a combined lab.

If you are a practicing MD you are not likely to be involved in drug development or engineering drug delivery.