Need information on Caribbean Schools

[futureboy]

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Basically Caribbean MD schools = crap. I know this has already been said more than a million times but I just wanted to reiterate. Horrible prospects for residency, problems with accreditation, and poor clinical training have all been discussed on this thread or some other. These schools are just interested in making money. Their standards are the lowest I've ever seen. They'll admit a donkey if it can pay their tuition. If you want to be a physician, then get your education at a good US MD school and work towards a decent residency. It may take a little longer, and obviously require a lot more hard work and diligence but it is the right thing to do. Preparing to apply to a US MD school will also give you the opportunity to learn more (both academically and philosophically speaking) which will eventually help make you a better, more competent physician.

As far as DO schools are concerned, I'm not really a fan. I think MD should be the only way to go. Many people will disagree with me, and that's fine. I just don't understand what the deal with osteopathic medicine is. I've shadowed a couple of osteopathic doctors and when I asked them how their approach to medical practice differs from that of allopathic doctors, they basically said there is no difference at all. The whole thing with osteopathic medicine being "a holistic, more personalized" way of looking at medicine is basically rubbish. Osteopathic doctors don't seem to apply this philosophy in their practice. So basically osteopathic medical schools are just another way for people to somehow get a medical degree. We all know how many people are desperate to get one even though they're not yet ready for it.

I disagree with your opinion of Caribbean schools for the reasons I previously stated. Not all Caribbean schools are created equal, and the docs that make it through and obtain their license are competent physicians.


As for your comments about DO schools, they are, to put it mildly, off base. DO=MD. The last thing we need is another DO vs. MD flame war...

 

[7starmantis]

The USMLE is currently reviewing the entire structure of exam. http://usmle.org/General_Information/review.html

It is widely expected that Steps 1 and 2 will be combined into a giant exam taken in the 4th year. It is further expected that the exam will go Pass/Fail.

Who is expecting those changes? i'm not sure, the recommendations in your link state:

CEUP recommends that USMLE design a series of assessments that are specifically intended to support decisions about a physician’s readiness to provide patient care at each of two patient-centered points: a) at the interface between undergraduate and graduate medical education (supervised practice), and b) at the beginning of independent (unsupervised) practice.

That would seem to lead away from the combined "one test in 4th year" idea I would think. Who knows. Hope they dont.

Basically Caribbean MD schools = crap.

🙄

I just don't understand what the deal with osteopathic medicine is. I've shadowed a couple of osteopathic doctors and when I asked them how their approach to medical practice differs from that of allopathic doctors, they basically said there is no difference at all.

Not understanding something isn't the best reason for sayings its worthless.

 

[icalz]

Basically Caribbean MD schools = crap. I know this has already been said more than a million times but I just wanted to reiterate. Horrible prospects for residency, problems with accreditation, and poor clinical training have all been discussed on this thread or some other. These schools are just interested in making money. Their standards are the lowest I've ever seen. They'll admit a donkey if it can pay their tuition. If you want to be a physician, then get your education at a good US MD school and work towards a decent residency. It may take a little longer, and obviously require a lot more hard work and diligence but it is the right thing to do. Preparing to apply to a US MD school will also give you the opportunity to learn more (both academically and philosophically speaking) which will eventually help make you a better, more competent physician.

As far as DO schools are concerned, I'm not really a fan. I think MD should be the only way to go. Many people will disagree with me, and that's fine. I just don't understand what the deal with osteopathic medicine is. I've shadowed a couple of osteopathic doctors and when I asked them how their approach to medical practice differs from that of allopathic doctors, they basically said there is no difference at all. The whole thing with osteopathic medicine being "a holistic, more personalized" way of looking at medicine is basically rubbish. Osteopathic doctors don't seem to apply this philosophy in their practice. So basically osteopathic medical schools are just another way for people to somehow get a medical degree. We all know how many people are desperate to get one even though they're not yet ready for it.

Say what you want, say what you will....throw out every possible statistic you can think of and calculate every form of fuzzy math that you can contrive, it comes down to one truth: it is what you make of it.

By the way, skeptics by definition are predisposed to disbelief, even in the face of overwhelming evidence....otherwise they would be considered 'open-minded' and not skeptics.

 

[Californian]

caribbean schools are not that bad as people say. St. George's med school will prepare you pretty well. Apply to St. George's MD program!

 

[futureboy]

caribbean schools are not that bad as people say. St. George's med school will prepare you pretty well. Apply to St. George's MD program!

St. George's website says their averages for enrolled students are a 3.3 GPA and a 26 MCAT.

 

[7starmantis]

.

 

[icalz]

St. George's website says their averages for enrolled students are a 3.3 GPA and a 26 MCAT.

Not certain what that means....? Were you making a benign statement concerning their student body, or were you making an insinuation that more relaxed admissions requirements is indicative of blanket inferiority? You do realize that those stats will also get you into U.S. DO school, right?

 

[futureboy]

Not certain what that means....? Were you making a benign statement concerning their student body, or were you making an insinuation that more relaxed admissions requirements is indicative of blanket inferiority? You do realize that those stats will also get you into U.S. DO school, right?

Sorry, I should have been more clear. My intent was to say that St. George's admission stats are pretty decent. I was responding to the posters who are saying that carib schools and their students are "crap."

 

[icalz]

Sorry, I should have been more clear. My intent was to say that St. George's admission stats are pretty decent. I was responding to the posters who are saying that carib schools and their students are "crap."

Ah, wasn't sure 😀 Yeah, for a carib school they're admission requirements are pretty high.

 

[7starmantis]

Sorry, I should have been more clear. My intent was to say that St. George's admission stats are pretty decent. I was responding to the posters who are saying that carib schools and their students are "crap."

Hah, sorry for jumping the gun there. I thought you were the one who said Caribbean=crap. Guess I should work to avoid those knee jerk reactions. 😳

 

[EmersonAnne]

Not certain what that means....? Were you making a benign statement concerning their student body, or were you making an insinuation that more relaxed admissions requirements is indicative of blanket inferiority? You do realize that those stats will also get you into U.S. DO school, right?

You'd have an uphill climb with that GPA for DO schools. Many DO schools now have averages of a 3.6 GPA. TCOM had an average MCAT of 29 for the C/O 2013 and many others had MCAT averages of 28.

 

[EmersonAnne]

I've shadowed a couple of osteopathic doctors and when I asked them how their approach to medical practice differs from that of allopathic doctors, they basically said there is no difference at all.

Exactly. DO=MD. So what's your beef?

 

[futureboy]

You'd have an uphill climb with that GPA for DO schools. Many DO schools now have averages of a 3.6 GPA. TCOM had an average MCAT of 29 for the C/O 2013 and many others had MCAT averages of 28.

Fair enough, but a 3.3 and a 26 would at least put you in the running for admission at a DO school. Also, it's not easy to compare GPAs because DO schools use grade replacement, and carib schools probably just use what's on the transcript.

 

[futureboy]

I thought you were the one who said Caribbean=crap. 😳

Nope, not me. I'm actually considering the carib option myself (not because of poor grades, though).

 

[Perrotfish]

Bottom line: if you are good at self-study (can teach yourself), score well on step 1, and secure quality lor's during your rotations then you increase your chance of gaining a residency up to 99% (only death, taxes, and student loans is 100%). If I end up doing the carib thing I won't lose a night of sleep...well, except maybe due to exams

A few things about your bottom line:

1) The step one scores for FMGs (Caribbean grads) and US MD/DO grads accepted at the same residencies is not comperable. You're going to need to do better on the USMLE to get a residency from the Islands than you would have needed to coming from the US.

2) You honestly have no idea how you are going to perform in medical school. You might have a family crisis, a mental breakdown, or just a lot of trouble with anatomy. US MD/DO school are very, very forgiving. Caribbean school will generally kick you out if you start failing regardless.

3) If you do this you are gambling with your life. You might do well, you might not, but if you don't you will be trapped in debt forever. I am of the strong opinion that your life is not something you should ever trust to a roll of the dice.

The schools are various qualities: some merely have low graduation rates, others (all but the big 4) are outright scams. However, if you don't have a trust fund, none of them are worth your time.

carrib attrition rates are more due to the fact that they accept really low quality applicants, not because they aren't able to prepare you for your board exams.

Do you have data to back that up? As sever posters have already pointed out, there are many US DO schools with matriculant stats that are lower than the top 4 Carib schools, but they all have a much, much higher percentage of their matriculants graduate and continue on to residency.

 

[futureboy]

others (all but the big 4) are outright scams.

The big 4 are the best Caribbean options because their graduates are eligible for licensure in all 50 states. Not all of the other schools are scams, though. Some of the other schools have not been approved by California, but have been approved by New York. Nevertheless, because other states follow the California list (not New York's), graduates of those schools can't be licensed in roughly 10-15 states. One of these "other" schools, AUA (American University of Antigua) is suing Arkansas because Arkansas doesn't conduct an independent review of carib schools, but simply follows California's list. The whole thing is rather complicated, actually.

The bottom line:

1. It is not accurate to say that all non-big 4 schools are scams; and

2. Non-big 4 schools can be a viable option, but only after conducting extensive research of the schools.

 

[Eggs n Coffee]

People always think they're somehow the exception to the statistic. They look at it and say, "well those are just numbers! I can beat the odds." But really? Just numbers? Those numbers are numbers that are informing you about the actual reality, in they do it in the most objective way possible. Look at those numbers carefully, and really, really consider them.

Do you think the 81% of carib students came to school thinking "well I'm probably gonna fail" or do you think they came thinking "I'm going to work hard and get in! No matter the odds!" Most likely it's the latter. But that still doesn't change the reality - most of them fail.

Now, ultimately the decision is up to you. I'm not saying you shouldn't go to a Caribbean School. What I am saying is this - before you go, think hard. Really. LOOK at the statistics and the possible outcome (worst case scenario). Don't just dismiss it. Don't be naive.

 

[Eggs n Coffee]

People always think they're somehow the exception to the statistic. They look at it and say, "well those are just numbers! I can beat the odds." But really? Just numbers? Those numbers are numbers that are informing you about the actual reality, in they do it in the most objective way possible. Look at those numbers carefully, and really, really consider them.

Do you think the 81% of carib students came to school thinking "well I'm probably gonna fail" or do you think they came thinking "I'm going to work hard and get in! No matter the odds!" Most likely it's the latter. But that still doesn't change the reality - most of them fail.

Now, ultimately the decision is up to you. I'm not saying you shouldn't go to a Caribbean School. What I am saying is this - before you go, think hard. Really. LOOK at the statistics and the possible outcome (worst case scenario). Don't just dismiss it. Don't be naive.

 

[futureboy]

Good advice, EnC, but the 81% failure rate (originally stated by another poster) is dubious, for the reasons I previously stated.

 

[icalz]

People always think they're somehow the exception to the statistic. They look at it and say, "well those are just numbers! I can beat the odds." But really? Just numbers? Those numbers are numbers that are informing you about the actual reality, in they do it in the most objective way possible. Look at those numbers carefully, and really, really consider them.

Do you think the 81% of carib students came to school thinking "well I'm probably gonna fail" or do you think they came thinking "I'm going to work hard and get in! No matter the odds!" Most likely it's the latter. But that still doesn't change the reality - most of them fail.

Now, ultimately the decision is up to you. I'm not saying you shouldn't go to a Caribbean School. What I am saying is this - before you go, think hard. Really. LOOK at the statistics and the possible outcome (worst case scenario). Don't just dismiss it. Don't be naive.

If I didn't think I was an exception to the statistic I never would've moved out of the small town I was born in, and I sure as hell would never have endeavored to become a doctor.....the statistics say that I'm probably not going to be able to do it, should I quit? (rhetorical question)

 

[Eyti]

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[circulus vitios]

Revamp your application, retake the MCAT and shoot for MD first.

DO and Caribbean are both second rate choices. Medical schools are expanding class sizes and the USMLE will become pass/fail (for class of 2014 or 2015). What that means is if you don't go to an MD school, you will be increasingly marginalized during the residency match process.

Do you have a link to this? I wonder if the COMLEX is heading that way as well?

Basically Caribbean MD schools = crap.
...
As far as DO schools are concerned, I'm not really a fan. I think MD should be the only way to go.
...
So basically osteopathic medical schools are just another way for people to somehow get a medical degree. We all know how many people are desperate to get one even though they're not yet ready for it.

Aren't you a pre-med? Why don't I ask a deaf man for his opinion on music while I'm at it.

 

[Just Joshin]

Fair enough, but a 3.3 and a 26 would at least put you in the running for admission at a DO school. Also, it's not easy to compare GPAs because DO schools use grade replacement, and carib schools probably just use what's on the transcript.

There isn't a single DO school that has stats lower than the top four Carrib school. That's rubbish. And technically, a 3.3 and a 26 would put you in the running for MD schools also. That doesn't mean much.

 

[Just Joshin]

Do you have data to back that up? As sever posters have already pointed out, there are many US DO schools with matriculant stats that are lower than the top 4 Carib schools, but they all have a much, much higher percentage of their matriculants graduate and continue on to residency.

Actually, I haven't seen several posters say that. Someone back it up. I find it extremely hard to believe.

 

[futureboy]

There isn't a single DO school that has stats lower than the top four Carrib school.

I didn't say that.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

other then sgu, sgu ( harvard of the carib) has entry stats of roughtly.. 24 mcat and about a 3.4 gpa
not too bad, but compared to most do schools average being 26 and 3.5, better schools like pcom and dmu having more like 3.6 gpa and 28 mcats

the other big 4 take you as long as you have a pulse ross is like 20 mcat and 3.0 gpa

 

[skeptic29]

the other big 4 take you as long as you have a pulse ross is like 20 mcat and 3.0 gpa

lol.

 

[icalz]

Actually, I haven't seen several posters say that. Someone back it up. I find it extremely hard to believe.

Check out the UT Southwestern class profile for 2008:

http://www.utsouthwestern.edu/utsw/cda/dept20676/files/397484.html#profile

Low end mcat (accepted): 25
Low end gpa (accepted): 3.1

And this is considered a competitive med school... i've seen some acceptances with an 18 mcat and 2.6 gpa but I'm not sure what the other components of the application were that got the person accepted.

 

[artx2008]

Check out the UT Southwestern class profile for 2008:

http://www.utsouthwestern.edu/utsw/cda/dept20676/files/397484.html#profile

Low end mcat (accepted): 25
Low end gpa (accepted): 3.1

And this is considered a competitive med school... i've seen some acceptances with an 18 mcat and 2.6 gpa but I'm not sure what the other components of the application were that got the person accepted.

It was probably just one URM person.
MCAT score distribution for the 2009 entering class at UT Southwestern:
MCAT/# of students
40-45/6
37-39/33
34-36/82
31-33/72
28-30/30
26-27/5