Need some advice on F31 and training time

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clinicalpsyapp

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Actually, a little advice-seeking with a splash of venting...

I am a 3rd year doctoral student in a research-based psych program. I just got off the phone with my advisor, who has decided that we should push back my NIH F31 revision AGAIN to April (I submitted it originally last April) rather than the upcoming December deadline. She has decided that I should probably rewrite the whole significance section with heavy input from two co-sponsors and that would be too difficult to complete by one week from now. Her recommendation makes sense, but I've been asking her about this since September and she just decided that now (there's the venting part...).

In response, I mentioned that there is a required training period of 2 years or you incur a payback obligation, and that since it wouldn't go into effect until next year that means I wouldn't be able to graduate until May 2015, which (and I said this in nicer words) is way longer than I need to complete everything in the training plan (or much longer than the requirements of my program for that matter since I came in with a master's and therefore didn't have to do a thesis)--as it's all planned out now, I could graduate by May 2014, December 2014 at the latest. But she insisted that she can come up with plenty of things for me to do during that time (all outside of my actual requirements to graduate, of course), and I don't quite know that an F31 on my CV is worth an extra year in grad school, ya know? So now I'm questioning resubmitting at all... ugh.

Those of you that have F31's: how long did it take you to get the funding? Did you think it was worth it? Did you have to add additional time to your training program because of the F31?

I am interested in an academic research career and will graduate with about 7 or 8 publications, most of which first author, and some solid research and training experiences in my field (cardiovascular health disparities). Clearly having an F31 on my CV will still be helpful when applying for jobs, but is it worth extra training time, missed time working on my diss, etc.? What about other funding opportunities for students that don't require as long of a time commitment?

Any input would be appreciated!
 
Unless I'm severely mistaken, payback does not apply to pre-docs, just post-docs....

You should just be able to "return" the second year of funding in the event that you graduate. At least that was my understanding....
 
I am interested in an academic research career and will graduate with about 7 or 8 publications, most of which first author, and some solid research and training experiences in my field (cardiovascular health disparities). Clearly having an F31 on my CV will still be helpful when applying for jobs, but is it worth extra training time, missed time working on my diss, etc.? What about other funding opportunities for students that don't require as long of a time commitment?

I can't speak specifically to an F31, but having proof of being able to secure external funding (to go along with good research productivity) is almost a must these days if you are looking for a T-T. Maybe some research focused T-Ts can jump in with their 2 cents? JonSnow?....Pragma?.
 
Unless I'm severely mistaken, payback does not apply to pre-docs, just post-docs....

This is correct. There's no payback agreement for pre-doc F31s. Also, there's no two-year requirement; if you propose and are funded for a two-year project, you need to renew it after the first year to maintain funding, and you don't have to renew it if you don't need it anymore.

Those of you that have F31's: how long did it take you to get the funding? Did you think it was worth it? Did you have to add additional time to your training program because of the F31?

Mine took 5 months from submission to awarding of funding and then a couple more months before I could activate it. Only time will tell if it's worth it, but I imagine it will be. 🙂 No, I haven't had to add additional training time because of it.
 
Yeah, there's no payback obligation for an F31. For some perspective, I applied initially in August, got my score in October, got my reviewer comments in November, and resubmitted a week and a half later (early December). I don't remember when I got the official word (maybe June) that it was being funded, but it was activated in August. So, about a year from initial submission (or 9 months from the revision - which is where you seem to be).

I don't know how much you need to improve, but rewriting the whole significance section sounds like a lot, especially if you recieved a decent score (or a score at all). Although, we're really talking about 1-1.5 pages, which seems like a very reasonable task to accomplish in a week. In a week I was able to make the necessary adjustments and dropped my score 50+ points (old system), which put me well into the fundable range. Of course, I don't know your situation, so it's difficult to gauge.

As for job prospects, I don't know that an F31 helps that much. I think a lot of faculty assume (wrongly) that your major advisor did most of the work, and that they got you the funding. I served on a faculty search committee at a RU/VH this year, and absence/presence of predoc funding never entered into our discussions (although it may help you land a great internship). The one thing that moved applications to the top of the pile was postdoc funding. If you can walk in with money then you're calling the shots, and schools will bend over backwards to get you accept their offer. An F31 may help in this regard, because NIH certainly likes to "grow" their researchers, so to speak.
 
As for job prospects, I don't know that an F31 helps that much. I think a lot of faculty assume (wrongly) that your major advisor did most of the work, and that they got you the funding. I served on a faculty search committee at a RU/VH this year, and absence/presence of predoc funding never entered into our discussions (although it may help you land a great internship). The one thing that moved applications to the top of the pile was postdoc funding. If you can walk in with money then you're calling the shots, and schools will bend over backwards to get you accept their offer. An F31 may help in this regard, because NIH certainly likes to "grow" their researchers, so to speak.

How would someone go about addressing this issue? What kind of funding would be realistic for an applicant to be considered competitive in today's market? I haven't been recruited to a search committee (yet), but I know I'll be tapped soon enough.
 
We have folks who extend their training for another year for research purposes. They're not receiving external funding, yet they seem to think it well worth their while in the end. :shrug:
 
We have folks who extend their training for another year for research purposes. They're not receiving external funding, yet they seem to think it well worth their while in the end. :shrug:

Sigh...yea.
Me= In. Out. Wife. Job. Baby. On the weekends I play golf. 😉
 
Well, I think it is a good problem to have!

A predoc F grant will not look bad, and may look good some places. I don't think you have anything to lose by submitting it...and it is just my personal opinion, but I think delaying the deadline is bogus. I have also seen 9 months as the lag time until funding occurs.

This depends on where you are trying to get a job. Some funding is better than no funding in most cases. If a place thinks you are riding your mentor's coattails, then they likely will view your pubs that way too. If it were me, I would submit it, earlier if possible but later if need be. If you don't get the funding, you can repackage it for postdoc perhaps. The other thing...the feds like to fund people they have already funded. No reason to wait...

I think postdoc funding is viewed more favorably because it is more recent and indicative of your later capabilities. But really, unless you are going for a topflight R1, I would say your overall fit and pub quality/count are the most important. Any funding on top of that is going to help.

Erg...me also in/out 😀 but I may have approached it differently had I wanted to go to a top R1
 
We have folks who extend their training for another year for research purposes. They're not receiving external funding, yet they seem to think it well worth their while in the end. :shrug:

I have seen this work for a) getting good postdoc funding, b) getting R2 jobs, c) as a reasonable thing to do while trying to get internship, d) total denial of the reality that you do need to graduate and leave the nest, and also pay those loans 🙂

ETA: e) if you are at one of those places that may hire you back...

Worthy of noting: One of my selling points was that I was productive AND got done fast. Also considered valuable at some TT places...
 
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I have seen this work for a) getting good postdoc funding, b) getting R2 jobs, c) as a reasonable thing to do while trying to get internship, d) total denial of the reality that you do need to graduate and leave the nest, and also pay those loans 🙂

ETA: e) if you are at one of those places that may hire you back...

Worthy of noting: One of my selling points was that I was productive AND got done fast. Also considered valuable at some TT places...

:laugh: Most of our students are fairly productive in the expected time to graduation. They have several pubs, etc. I agree that there may be a *few* of these who have stuck around due to not wanting to leave the nest quite yet or other reasons. But I believe most of them are relatively anxious re: obtaining internship, postdocs, & other research positions afterward, so they stick around to bolster their CVs even more and to "get a few more pubs" (I'm obviously oversimplifying here).

And we have to repay loans?! 😳
 
I'm sticking around for another year to get more pubs 🙂 Although I also needed more clinical hours as well.

I'm not shooting for R1 so these comments are making me feel better about my lack of funding. Hopefully I can get something post-doc!
 
And we have to repay loans?! 😳

Honestly, after I graduated in minimum time, I envied everyone still in school because of those stupid loans. But it will catch up eventually (unless you get one of those nice repayment programs).

Just to clarify - my comments were really just based on people looking for academic jobs. There are all kinds of reasons that people take as long as they take. Some of those could be strategic and some might be personal. I wasn't really getting in to that - I guess to me, it just seems that the job market is so volatile, the opportunity cost of taking any longer than you need to in order to get the credentials you need is pretty high.

The other thing is that people often get "starter" jobs. Maybe that awesome job you want doesn't pan out in round one - many people take a different job and make lateral moves within a few years in academia. Happens all the time. So to me, as long as you aren't taking something that might be viewed unfavorably (perhaps a CC job or FSPS position), it shouldn't be a huge deal IF you aren't on the R1 track.

If it is R1 or bust, then you need to play a more specific game and it is complicated. I wish you luck...
 
Hi everyone, thank you so much for your feedback!

An update/follow-up:

I have still been undecided about resubmitting the F31 in April. I didn't mention this earlier, but my advisor has been having health/family problems since I started the program and has been extremely unavailable/unreliable. These things could clear up soon, but I doubt it. So the idea of spending an extra year here does not sound appealing. Thus far in my program, I have remained productive despite this but with extremely little support/supervisor from my mentor.

I went to an excellent conference in my field last week and had some great networking experiences. I met a researcher from a top tier (ivy league) and ended up having a great conversation with her about some research ideas I had. I followed up with an email with some questions and an inquiry into whether there are post-doc opportunities at her center. She replied saying they did not have any formal opportunities, but that she would be interested in having me write an F32 to fund a post-doc position there. The Center itself is a perfect match for my research and is directed by two of the most prominent researchers in my area. Though I should point out that the woman who extended me this offer is more junior, but still established.

Timing wise, this would allow me to graduate when I had wanted to (Spring 2014), and if we aim for the August submission cycle, that would allow me to resubmit in December if it needs a revision and still get the funding in time.

So, first of all, has anyone here funded their own post-doc? What are the pluses/minuses of this approach rather than a formal post-doc program? From my limited knowledge, it seems there is the obvious risk of not getting funded (but I would have a good idea by oct/nov if the grant is going to be fundable and could apply to formal programs as backups). But also that writing your own F32 would ensure the post-doc experience is more tailored to my training needs than a formal program.

I should also add that I'm not clinical (despite my name) since I know there are different post-docs considerations for clinical students...
 
Just wanted to bump this up since I posted it around the holidays. I would love some feedback/advice!
 
Hi everyone, thank you so much for your feedback!
I should also add that I'm not clinical (despite my name) since I know there are different post-docs considerations for clinical students...

By "not clinical," do you mean that you are in an experimental/non-license eligible program (developmental, social, educational, etc) or in a counseling or school psych PhD program?
 
Yes, my degree will be in Community Psychology with a focus in Health Psychology (so no licensure necessary).
 
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