Negotiating your first salary with HR.

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amestramgram

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Hi, what is the most insightful book/ course/ website/ journal you've seen about what HR staff wish doctors knew, or how to best negotiate your first salary so you know you are not being shortchanged?

I'm starting to educate myself by reading the book Getting to Yes.
 
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But in a more serious note, i would personally spend the money to get the MGMA data. Once you know what the medians are it is easier to negotiate since you know what their internal numbers probably look like. I would also suggest looking into the specialty subforums and talking to some of the more senior attendings there, because i assume negotiations are very specialty dependent and location dependent as well.
 
It’s very dependent on the type of practice, where you are practicing, how much you are needed. Since you come in with essentially no experience, you have little to leverage in that regard. But get a ballpark from MGMA data, and ask what you think is reasonable. Ask friends what they are making (if they are willing to tell). Negogitate for non-monetary items, call number, days off, administrative responsibilities, etc.

Bottom line, ask for what you think you should get. Worse they say is no.
 
Hi, what is the most insightful book/ course/ website/ journal you've seen about what HR staff wish doctors knew, or how to best negotiate your first salary so you know you are not being shortchanged?

I'm starting to educate myself by reading the book Getting to Yes.

It may be different with other specialties, but I've never heard of negotiating with HR. It doesn't make a ton of sense to me given what I went through in terms of first jobs.

#1 People. In general, I was recruited or interfaced with practice partners, division chiefs, CMOs, CEOs as my initial points of contact. It really depended on the practice type and structure. You have to know who those people are, what they are responsible for and why they are looking to hire you.

#2 Salary. This is generally the least important part of your contract. For starters, the bulk of physician compensation is non-salary, it is productivity based.
 
It’s very dependent on the type of practice, where you are practicing, how much you are needed. Since you come in with essentially no experience, you have little to leverage in that regard. But get a ballpark from MGMA data, and ask what you think is reasonable. Ask friends what they are making (if they are willing to tell). Negogitate for non-monetary items, call number, days off, administrative responsibilities, etc.

Bottom line, ask for what you think you should get. Worse they say is no.
Ask for more than you're worth so that you can negotiate into what you should get
 
Getting to Yes is a good one. You need your BATNA, i.e. another offer elsewhere. Use mgma and other available salary resources to get an idea of what you're worth, but also give space for being new attending (those are usually average of all experience levels). Ask past grads what kind of offers they get, or an experience attending. I would caution just simply asking for more or asking more than you think you should get, worst thing is they pull the offer due to unrealistic expectation and not wanting to deal with you, especially if in a competitive market. As others have said, salary isn't everything. Signing bonus, moving expenses, loan repayment, vacation, etc. are negotiable too. Also, if it's a hospital employed position, they maybe more rigid than PP. Most important though is fit: culture, colleagues, practice style, etc.
 
It’s very simple. You hire a contract review/negotiation specialist to get you the best offer. $1000 for potentially many tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands.

Also be aware that the important part of negotiating is production bonus, NOT base salary.
 
In my w2 employee job, this is not true

While some doctors are paid a flat salary, most even w2 employees get a salary guarantee and an rvu bonus. The salary guarantee can be very low, or even non existent and you just eat what you kill in rvu form minus some administrative overhead. Still get a w2 at the end of the year.

So yes, your situation definitely exists, and in some cases may be optimal in a low volume practice or unstable market, but i think it’s less common.
 
I certainly hope I dont have to speak with, let alone negotiate with someone from HR with a high school education about a professional contract.

Prepare to be disappointed. I had an exclusively HR-mediated negotiation process with one hospital. They lowballed me big time, gave me completely unrealistic RVU projections to make up the difference (like 99.9th percentile), and then when I told her that they were not even close to being market competitive, she reminded me that a six figure salary was still a lot more than what most people make. She also made repeated references about how she “applied to Med school too but decided not to go because she wanted to have a family” Clearly held a grudge and thought she was my equal.

Ended up being a hard pass.
 
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Prepare to be disappointed. I had an exclusively HR-mediated negotiation process with one hospital. They lowballed me big time, gave me completely unrealistic RVU projections to make up the difference (like 99.9th percentile), and then when I told her that they were not even close to being market competitive, she reminded me that a six figure salary was still a lot more than what most people make. She also made repeated references about how she “applied to Med school too but decided not to go because she wanted to have a family” Clearly held a grudge and thought she was my equal.

Ended up being a hard pass.

So.... you're a bum now, great.
 
Prepare to be disappointed. I had an exclusively HR-mediated negotiation process with one hospital. They lowballed me big time, gave me completely unrealistic RVU projections to make up the difference (like 99.9th percentile), and then when I told her that they were not even close to being market competitive, she reminded me that a six figure salary was still a lot more than what most people make. She also made repeated references about how she “applied to Med school too but decided not to go because she wanted to have a family” Clearly held a grudge and thought she was my equal.

Ended up being a hard pass.
Lol wut. That lady is wildly unprofessional. Imagine an Nba team telling Lebron James his salary should be 1 million. Because that’s a lot more than most people.
 
Hi, what is the most insightful book/ course/ website/ journal you've seen about what HR staff wish doctors knew, or how to best negotiate your first salary so you know you are not being shortchanged?

I'm starting to educate myself by reading the book Getting to Yes.
Every market and job is different. You have gotten pretty good advice re salary. Let them dazzle you with an offer. Be prepared to counter with data. Since you are fresh out they will see how cheap they can get you. Contracts are more about what happens when you leave than when you start.
Secondly, and just as important, is the restrictive covenant they will ask you to sign. Most new contracts are short term, 2-3 yrs. If you are not meeting rvu targets, they can opt to Non Renew your contract. No due process, they dont have to give you a reason. Make sure the language says the covenant will only be enforced if YOU decide to leave or are terminated for cause. I know several physicians who had to sell their houses and move their families because of non renewal and they didnt read the restrictive covenant. Good luck and best wishes
 
why do they have MBAs negotiate doctor's salaries in the first place and lowball as much as possible? Why weren't department chairmen/ chairwomen ever in that role? It's another case of complaining about doctor's pay, while the CEOs enrich themselves with million dollar bonuses and stock options? hehe
 
I used this book targeted at physicians:

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Overpriced for the amount of content but still helpful. Best for newbies.

If you hire a contract attorney with experience in physician contracts they should handle the heavy lifting for you.

Use MGMA and interview broadly in an area to get a feel for fair market value. And remember to focus on the other features that can make or break a good contract besides just compensation.
 
I used this book targeted at physicians:

51dj3SQuA7L._SX320_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg


Overpriced for the amount of content but still helpful. Best for newbies.

If you hire a contract attorney with experience in physician contracts they should handle the heavy lifting for you.

Use MGMA and interview broadly in an area to get a feel for fair market value. And remember to focus on the other features that can make or break a good contract besides just compensation.
Ive never really heard about hiring contract attorneys. Is this worth the cost? What is the total cost in fee's one would be looking at when hiring one? Does this leave a bad taste in the employers mouth considering it seems like it is fairly adversarial?
 
Indeed why is it fine for the employer to have a lawyer, but adversarial when a new doctor tries to hire a lawyer? Double standards much?
 
Indeed why is it fine for the employer to have a lawyer, but adversarial when a new doctor tries to hire a lawyer? Double standards much?
i dont disagree with you. I am just asking about perceptions. The hospitals where I worked at the lawyers did not do the negotiations, the recruitment people did and once everything was agreed upon it would be sent to a lawyer to review to make sure the contract was enforceable. So yes it would be adversarial to me as an employer if someone brought in a lawyer at that stage, atleast perceptually. What else is this employee going to bring a lawyer into? is it worth the headache to deal. Maybe its an accepted practice, but that is why I am asking.
 
i dont disagree with you. I am just asking about perceptions. The hospitals where I worked at the lawyers did not do the negotiations, the recruitment people did and once everything was agreed upon it would be sent to a lawyer to review to make sure the contract was enforceable. So yes it would be adversarial to me as an employer if someone brought in a lawyer at that stage, atleast perceptually. What else is this employee going to bring a lawyer into? is it worth the headache to deal. Maybe its an accepted practice, but that is why I am asking.

It is accepted at most hospitals and if they dont want you to have one you don't want to work there.

Do you know anything about contract law? I bet you know more about quantum physics. Taxes, contracts - hire someone until you learn enough to take care of it yourself.
 
Ive never really heard about hiring contract attorneys. Is this worth the cost? What is the total cost in fee's one would be looking at when hiring one? Does this leave a bad taste in the employers mouth considering it seems like it is fairly adversarial?

A lot of time, if you are negotiating, it is with a physician executive or hospital administrator and not HR directly. It could be HR but with a specific person that deals with physician hiring. If there are 100 hospitals, there are 250 ways physicians are hired and paid, and many permutations are possible.

It also depends ... are you joining as a W2 employee, a 1099 independent contractor, or joining a private group (either as a employee, contractor, or partnership track) that have privileges at that hospital? Are you being hired by the hospital, or by the group (even if the group is owned by the hospital)

Are you paid a guarantee salary? If so, for how long? Are you paid a salary + production bonus? How are the bonuses calculated. It is wRVU generated or actual collections?

Are the moving expenses paid for, or is it a loan? If it is a loan, does it have to be repaid or can it be forgiven? What are the conditions for loan forgiveness (and you want to make sure the conditions don't violate any existing federal laws)

It's all in the wording - and a good contract will protect you when there are issues, or you want to leave (or they want to force you out)

You'll be focused on the important stuff and forget that other stuff are just as important. While you focus on income and benefits (and how to generate those income) ... other terms are important and can greatly affect your bottom line.

How much notice do you have to give if you want to leave the job? How much notice should the hospital give if they want to fire you? What are the conditions where they can fire you "for cause" without any advance notice? What are the penalties if either of you don't abide by the contract?

What if you are injured? How long can you remain out of work and not worry about losing the job?

What about account receivables when you leave - money that you've worked/generated but awaiting payment from payers - do you get to keep any of that, or does it all go to your employer?

Is there a Restrictive covenant - is it 10 miles or 100 miles? Is it measured from one facility or ANY facility own by the mega health system.

Who pays for tail coverage for insurance? It can cost tens of thousands if not hundred of thousands (depending on location, specialty, claims history, etc)

Is this a partnership track - what are the conditions to becoming a partner - what is the time limit? Does it spell out what you have to do to become partner? What is the buy-in? Will you have the right to look at the books to make sure the buy in is fair? Will you need a loan for the buy-in? Voting rights? Will you be an equity partner or a junior partner? Any debts or potential liabilities that can affect the financial viability (or even credibility) of the group?

How are calls scheduled? Is it fairly distributed or is it bottom heavy (seniority with fewer call)? Is call compensated?

Is there maternity leave? Paternity leave?

Will there be an academic appointment? (eg., clinical assistant professor from XXX school of medicine). Is there expectation of scholarship? Is there expectation of promotion to maintain employment?

Will there be expectation of non-clinical service work? (eg., hospital committees, dept and division committees, etc)

You trained to be a good physician, and along the way learned about EMRs and Medical Coding, and probably a few medicare/HHS rules along the way. You need someone who knows what they are doing, who knows the legal system and how a proper contract is written (there is a big difference if the contract says the employer SHALL vs employer MAY), employment laws in the state as well as US federal laws, and how to negotiate and what to negotiate for. It may seem expensive ($2k, $5k) but if you gain an extra $50k or $100k - it is penny wise and pound foolish. But even if you don't get extra "income" on the front end, knowing you are protected on the back end can save money or headaches, or legal issues (that will certainly cost you more in lawyer fees)


i dont disagree with you. I am just asking about perceptions. The hospitals where I worked at the lawyers did not do the negotiations, the recruitment people did and once everything was agreed upon it would be sent to a lawyer to review to make sure the contract was enforceable. So yes it would be adversarial to me as an employer if someone brought in a lawyer at that stage, at least perceptually. What else is this employee going to bring a lawyer into? is it worth the headache to deal. Maybe its an accepted practice, but that is why I am asking.

Depends on the culture of the area ... the lawyer may help negotiate for you, or the lawyer can be in the background, looking over stuff and reminding you to either ask for certain stuff, or ask for certain terms or wording or conditions to be removed/amended, and explaining what you are agreeing. Remember, if there is a disagreement, it goes to arbitration (or court) ... it's not what is said or promised, but what is written.

There's a lot at stake - that's why NBA, NFL, MLB, NHL players have agents on their behalf. Yes, there is a risk that if you cause too much of a headache, they may go with someone else. But this is a bilateral transaction - you have the service they need, and they need your service - you are negotiating. And for a lot of people, this is the first time that they realize anything is negotiable. Residency, fellowship contracts - sign on dotted line. First employment offer when you're 6-figure in debt - it is tempting to take the highest offer, and reasonable to be afraid to negotiate.
 
It may be different with other specialties, but I've never heard of negotiating with HR. It doesn't make a ton of sense to me given what I went through in terms of first jobs.

#1 People. In general, I was recruited or interfaced with practice partners, division chiefs, CMOs, CEOs as my initial points of contact. It really depended on the practice type and structure. You have to know who those people are, what they are responsible for and why they are looking to hire you.

#2 Salary. This is generally the least important part of your contract. For starters, the bulk of physician compensation is non-salary, it is productivity based.

My reading of the OP is that they were just using "salary" as shorthand for "compensation". Negotiating your compensation is an integral part of your first (and every) contract, because there's a lot of ways to screw a physician if you aren't careful, and a lot of people aren't. I've talked to a bunch of people that left their first jobs after a couple years when they realized just how raw of a deal they got.

Also, while you might be right about the bulk of compensation being productivity based for your job and your field, you have no clue what it may be for OP. Compensation models vary *widely* from job to job and specialty to specialty. Options, just off the top of my head, include but are not limited to

1) Flat salary. There are plenty of physicians with a predetermined income that has near-zero to do with their productivity. Many if not most academic centers, VAs, and many of the large systems (Kaiser for example) have >90% of their compensation set ahead of time with a nominal productivity bonus to make up the rest.

2) Hourly wage - This is a very common compensation model for things like hospitalist medicine. They need you there regardless, so they just pony up $X/hour regardless of how busy you are.

3) Productivity based on wRVUs - probably the most common model overall, where each CPT code is worth a specific number of wRVUs, and at the end of the pay period your total number of wRVUs is multiplied by a conversion factor (which is a whole nother discussion to get into how it's derived) and that's your pay. This has the benefit of being insurance company neutral - you won't get screwed if you're seeing less private insurance than your partners.

4) Productivity based on "eat what you kill". This is where all your billings are added up, then overhead is subtracted (either as a flat amount or a proportional amount) and you get the rest. This is the most direct link of income to your actual productivity but can lead to problems like disparate incomes due to insurance cherrypicking

5) Any of the above +/- various bonuses - like a quality bonus if you meet XYZ metrics, or a productivity bonus for #1 or 2. This is becoming more and more common with things like ACOs that give practices extra $$$ based on meeting random requirements.

6) Any of the above +/- income from various ancillary services owned by the practice. Ex: The practice owns its own MRI machine. Who gets the income from that? Or even the practice owns its own building, who gets the internal check for "rent"? Usually this ancillary income flows to the practices partners, but figuring out those numbers is actually not simple.

Of course, that's eventual compensation. It gets even more complicated when you take into account models for new physicians, including

A) Sign on bonus
B) Moving stipend
C) Board/license reimbursement
D) Loan repayment
E) Road to partnership - what exactly is necessary to become a partner and get a cut of #6 above? Is it just time ("sweat equity")? Is there a buyin?

And most importantly,

F) How is the compensation structured the first 1-2 years compared to the rest? The vast majority of physicians can't hit the ground running and be productive from day one. Theres a few exceptions (hospitalists, intensivists, pathologists, radiologists, EM, anesthesia) but anyone that has to build a panel of patients and starts a new job that is based on productivity is f---ed if their contract doesn't specify a floor for their income for the first couple years. Like, you'd be making residency money for your first 6 months at best.

Many of the above things are probably going to be set ahead of time (particularly with a larger practice/system), but it's important to actually understand what you're getting yourself in to and negotiate the compensation including (for most of us) a base pay (or "salary") for the first one to two years.

And all that is just the money! There's a ton of other things that potentially need to be negotiated or at the very least need to be reviewed. Benefits. Terms of who can sever the contract, for what reason, and with what notice. Non-competes. Etc. Etc.
 
Generally 90+% of this depends on how competitive the job market is in your specialty and geographic location preferences. Across all specialties, if seeking a job in or near the desirable coastal metro locations like SF, LA, NYC, DC, Miami, you will have less negotiating power, regardless of specialty.

Your best negotiation tactic is being willing to walk (e.g. having other job offers). Always know where you stand regarding specialty job market & location competitiveness before asking for more compensation/vacation/etc. because contrary to some of the advice above, if they perceive you as being too much of a high maintenance diva, some places WILL take the offer away. Be prepared for that.
 
why do they have MBAs negotiate doctor's salaries in the first place and lowball as much as possible? Why weren't department chairmen/ chairwomen ever in that role? It's another case of complaining about doctor's pay, while the CEOs enrich themselves with million dollar bonuses and stock options? hehe
Your posts are adorably naïve. it's pretty obvious that you don't have any experience in the nuts and bolts of how things really work. That's ok. You're gonna find out.

HR's job is to be the bad guy and save the company as much on personnel cost as possible. Department heads offload that stuff to the hall monitors of the world, which is the perfect mentality for an HR type to have.
HR's job is to protect the company from its employees. Welcome to the real world, kid. It sucks.
If you want CEO $$$, figure out how to become the CEO and do it. If not, you have two choices at the end of the day: don't complain or don't play the game.
 
Ive never really heard about hiring contract attorneys. Is this worth the cost? What is the total cost in fee's one would be looking at when hiring one? Does this leave a bad taste in the employers mouth considering it seems like it is fairly adversarial?
I paid $330/h. It is worth it and standard to do so. He found glaring things which needed change.
 
Adult Congenital Heart Disease, I would prefer NC/SC/PA/DE or either of the Virginias.
I would come out board certified in peds, BC/BE in Peds Cardiology/ Adult Congenital, and ready to be a cardiac imaging doc trained via the Cardiology fellowship pathway (i.e. ready to do my own nuclear studies, cardiac CTs, and cardiac MRIs).

I can take ownership of being immature, but let me ask you this - I know that HR people actively find ways to decrease physician salaries - but always find ways to pay their CEOs more bonuses. Is it too immature to ask HR people to at least stop screwing physicians and offer straightforward contracts for once?
 
Adult Congenital Heart Disease, I would prefer NC/SC/PA/DE or either of the Virginias.
I would come out board certified in peds, BC/BE in Peds Cardiology/ Adult Congenital, and ready to be a cardiac imaging doc trained via the Cardiology fellowship pathway (i.e. ready to do my own nuclear studies, cardiac CTs, and cardiac MRIs).

I can take ownership of being immature, but let me ask you this - I know that HR people actively find ways to decrease physician salaries - but always find ways to pay their CEOs more bonuses. Is it too immature to ask HR people to at least stop screwing physicians and offer straightforward contracts for once?
the board of directors set compensation for CEO's , not HR.
 
And I'll explain my rationale with why I really don't like HR people - at my hospital, they've created financial incentives for skilled pediatric echo techs to leave (i.e. payed them well below state medians) purely because they think they can hire newer echo techs for less money. The department has had to retrain new echo techs, suffer through poor productivity - and by the way HR doesn't care that pediatric echos are 5 times the length of adult echos and requires thinking on your feet - and suffer through poor morale. It makes it easy for the experienced echo techs to go to the other side of the state where they are being much more fairly compensated. Is it even possible to debate these people and have them come to the physician's point of view ? Even our division director was flatly denied his case.
 
Getting to Yes is a great book discussing negotiation as a general concept, but its principles are broadly applicable to navigating interpersonal conflicts in general. Great (and quick) read, IMO - particularly for medical students preparing to enter the hospital and having to navigate team dynamics and challenging/demanding personalities.
 
why do they have MBAs negotiate doctor's salaries in the first place and lowball as much as possible? Why weren't department chairmen/ chairwomen ever in that role? It's another case of complaining about doctor's pay, while the CEOs enrich themselves with million dollar bonuses and stock options? hehe

you poor soul, the department chair is there to milk you as much as possible to work in an academic setting. I remember one job I was offered at relatively big name Midwest city University and the DOM had an academic tax (around 10% of all RVUs generated), an education reverse stipend of about 3%, a research tax (around 3%), and required contributions to the general fund (around 1000/year). The base salary was around 250k but I imagine my actual salary would have been <180k.
 
I still think I'm well within my rights to insist on a good bargain for me just as much as HR will insist on what's financially in their best interest.
How do you determine ahead of time which hospitals are ok with you bringing your own lawyer into the equation and which ones are there to milk you as hard as possible?
 
I still think I'm well within my rights to insist on a good bargain for me just as much as HR will insist on what's financially in their best interest.
How do you determine ahead of time which hospitals are ok with you bringing your own lawyer into the equation and which ones are there to milk you as hard as possible?
Any hospital that doesn't allow you to have a lawyer review your contract is not one you want to do business with.

Of course, the hospital may say any contract is take it or leave it - as is their right - but they should still be OK with you getting advice of counsel.
 
you poor soul, the department chair is there to milk you as much as possible to work in an academic setting. I remember one job I was offered at relatively big name Midwest city University and the DOM had an academic tax (around 10% of all RVUs generated), an education reverse stipend of about 3%, a research tax (around 3%), and required contributions to the general fund (around 1000/year). The base salary was around 250k but I imagine my actual salary would have been <180k.

LOL is this a joke
 
OP, you are looking for a job in a very narrow sub-subspecialty that is going to be nearly exclusively academic (adult congenital cards).

Thus, your job search will be all about connections and relationships and you are going to have to be flexible. Is your program helping you?

In this context, the HR question makes a little more sense as you are not negotiating with any PP groups and presumably are talking with large hospital system recruiters. Still, those people are the gatekeepers and the decision will be made at the department chief level. You’ll need to talk to those folks directly. Also, given your very narrow field, I would say you need to get a job and then you can look around over the next couple of years for something better.
 
I still think I'm well within my rights to insist on a good bargain for me just as much as HR will insist on what's financially in their best interest.
How do you determine ahead of time which hospitals are ok with you bringing your own lawyer into the equation and which ones are there to milk you as hard as possible?

No one will stop you from having a lawyer review a contract. In fact, they won’t even know unless you frame your counter offer in a way that informs them.
 
I still think I'm well within my rights to insist on a good bargain for me just as much as HR will insist on what's financially in their best interest.
How do you determine ahead of time which hospitals are ok with you bringing your own lawyer into the equation and which ones are there to milk you as hard as possible?

No one is going to stop you from having your own lawyer look at the contract. Whether you have your lawyer be the main go-between with the hospital or you just get their advice and negotiate on your own is up to you and likely how much you’re willing to spend on the lawyer.

I had a lawyer look at an initial contract I was given and then used some things he pointed out to craft my response with some specific items I wanted changed.
 
These lads typically charge by the hour eh? So if you learn enough about contract law to attempt to write your own, you will be at an advantage?
 
These lads typically charge by the hour eh? So if you learn enough about contract law to attempt to write your own, you will be at an advantage?

"Learn enough about contract law?"

There's some apocryphal line about fools being the only ones that would represent themselves in court as an attorney. As a non-attorney I imagine that would be even more foolhardy. At the point where you're actually looking for a job, the cost of having an actual attorney look at your contract is well worth it, especially if you're going to be working for an employer where this is room for negotiation. This is one of those things you just don't want to skimp out on for cost as a bad contract could cost you substantially more than the cost of having an attorney review everything and advise you. There are attorneys that specialize specifically in healthcare contract law and are very familiar with how things work. If it's a local shop, they may be familiar with the institution you're working with in particular, which can be hugely advantageous.

Paying an attorney ~$1k to review a contract seems like a lot now, but when you're about to becoming an attending it's a relative drop in the bucket.
 
Ive never really heard about hiring contract attorneys. Is this worth the cost? What is the total cost in fee's one would be looking at when hiring one? Does this leave a bad taste in the employers mouth considering it seems like it is fairly adversarial?

It's common among savvy physicians. I'd highly recommend it. Most physicians can't parse the details of a contract, so without hiring one you're just trusting the company to negotiate in good faith. My initial contract offer was missing the signing bonus. Yes, I caught it, but the point is a good contract attorney protects you from getting screwed. A contract attorney with lots of experience in physician contracts can even use internal data to give you an idea of what's market value. They more than pay for themselves in value.

Any entity that views a contract attorney review as hostile is immature and not worth doing business with. You're overthinking things. Your primary responsibility is to yourself.

At the very least, get them to review and offer suggestions and do the negotiations yourself.
 
It's common among savvy physicians. I'd highly recommend it. Most physicians can't parse the details of a contract, so without hiring one you're just trusting the company to negotiate in good faith. My initial contract offer was missing the signing bonus. Yes, I caught it, but the point is a good contract attorney protects you from getting screwed. A contract attorney with lots of experience in physician contracts can even use internal data to give you an idea of what's market value. They more than pay for themselves in value.

Any entity that views a contract attorney review as hostile is immature and not worth doing business with. You're overthinking things. Your primary responsibility is to yourself.

At the very least, get them to review and offer suggestions and do the negotiations yourself.
So should I pay the contract attorney to negotiate for me directly? or should I just have them look up the terms?
 
So should I pay the contract attorney to negotiate for me directly? or should I just have them look up the terms?

Depends entirely on your situation. I would say that it would be unusual for a physician to have a lawyer doing the bulk of the discussions with a hospital. But, not having a lawyer look at a contract before you sign it is just plain idiotic.
 
Certain large health care organizations (like Kaiser, Sutter, VA, academics) give essentially the same contract to all their employees, without room for negotiation. In such circumstances hiring an attorney is probably a waste.
 
So should I pay the contract attorney to negotiate for me directly? or should I just have them look up the terms?

Whatever you're comfortable with. Most just have the attorney review the contract and offer suggestions. Many people in private practice have the attorney negotiate the whole thing. More flexibility in private than with big hospital contracts.

There are different packages available. The most important thing is to find a specialized contract attorney, and preferably one who does a good amount of physician contracts.
 
And on your attending interview trail, any advice on how to figure out the office politics of the place you are interviewing? Ideas on decreasing the chances you will be stuck with a coworker you really can't get along with?
 
And on your attending interview trail, any advice on how to figure out the office politics of the place you are interviewing? Ideas on decreasing the chances you will be stuck with a coworker you really can't get along with?


The only way to get that kind of insider information is if you have a friend who already works there. Doubt you can parse that information during an interview. Hopefully some of your leads come from your seniors during training or former faculty who have moved on.
 
Very informative thread! Glad I opened it.

OP, do you have a specialty and locale in mind so we can give you more info?
How about forensic psychiatry and psychotherapy in urban centers in the midwest/southwest? Phoenix, Salt Lake City, Minneapolis, Madison type areas?

Or is that too specific? I imagine networking would be the most important thing.
 
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