my school is like 50% this year and I heard that Tufts doesn't do well in NERB either. I can't believe that some school like NYU has a passing rate of 98%. Do you think that some school has a secret leverage that NERB has to make easier for their students to pass? Would it make it difference if I took NERB in NYU or elsewhere?
NERB failure rate among dental schools
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hi,
we had our NERB last week at UPENN.
we had 90% in restorative & 95% in Perio as our passing rate.
out of 116 students only 12 people failed.
i was one of the lucky persons who passed despite carious pulp exposure in class II 👍
i don't think there is any advantage in doing NERB in any particular school.
it's how well you perform on that particular day.
i believe it's an averagely difficult exam (not impossible at all!!!)🙂
all the best,
we had our NERB last week at UPENN.
we had 90% in restorative & 95% in Perio as our passing rate.
out of 116 students only 12 people failed.
i was one of the lucky persons who passed despite carious pulp exposure in class II 👍
i don't think there is any advantage in doing NERB in any particular school.
it's how well you perform on that particular day.
i believe it's an averagely difficult exam (not impossible at all!!!)🙂
all the best,
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I'll bet a ton of $$ that NYU doesn't have a 98% pass rate on the NERB
It is true that NYU's NERB passing rate this year was very close to 100% in both perio and restorative. The school prepares us very well for the NERB clinical exams. We have had a series of lectures that go over the most important things written in the NERB manual (e.g. when to request modification, criteria for "satisfactory" and "minimally acceptable," etc.), which turned out to be extremely helpful. NYUCD has also implemented very rigorous protocol for caries removal check for every restoration we do in clinic. Since we have a very large and diverse patient pool, most people can find ideal cases for Class II, Class III, and perio, and back-up patients.
We take the exam very seriously and work hard to thoroughly prepare for the exam. We study the NERB manual as studiously as we study the Decks. Many of the faculties in the Department of Cariology and Comprehensive Care are intimately familiar with the exam, so we have great resources. It is no surprise that NYUCD has a very high NERB passing rate.
We take the exam very seriously and work hard to thoroughly prepare for the exam. We study the NERB manual as studiously as we study the Decks. Many of the faculties in the Department of Cariology and Comprehensive Care are intimately familiar with the exam, so we have great resources. It is no surprise that NYUCD has a very high NERB passing rate.
actually, there's nothing to call b.s. on. a pulp exposure in and of itself is not a critical error. as long as you know how to manage a carious pulp exposure (direct pulp cap with calcium hydroxide) you can still pass.
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really?
What you just described is so foreign to me. I took the NERB two years ago; the lesions we treated almost didn't need treatment. To think that somebody would walk into the NERB with a tooth that had caries approaching the pulp is astounding. This would make me think negatively of the faculty at Penn; that they would let a student walk into such a minefield.
haha, yeah. i mean for the most part everyone is going to try to show up with lesions that are almost an ethical dilemma to prepare a full class2 amalgam prep on, but there are going to be a few cases here and there where students are unable to find the "ideal" lesion, or their ideal lesion fails the day of the NERB and a horrible backup needs to be used, and can occasionally find themselves in a nightmare situation like a carious pulp exposure. i would pee my pants 😛
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DItto for me too.
The NERB states that you lose all points for operative if you have an unrecognized exposure, poorly managed exposure, or expose the pulp when it could have been avoided. As long as you've already requested the necessary modifications, you can request another modification if you believe that removing the last tiny bit of caries will expose the pulp. If you are lucky and the exposure is pinpoint, a pulp cap is possible. If you have an exposure "too large" as deemed by the CFE, you're toast.
I'm only a first year at Tufts, but when I heard the stats, I seriously started sweating. The reason I had come to Tufts was because I had believed that it had a good clinical rep... for that I turned down many other schools.
After talking with some D10/D11 students, I've heard mixed things. Some said it was that the instructors weren't calibrated as to NERB guidelines. Some said that lots of people were axed because they didn't get in line fast enough. Some said that some people who failed really deserved to fail. Honestly, I don't know what to believe.
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If you walk into the NERB anticipating to fill out modification forms, you've already lowered your chances of passing. Just get the damn prep done!! One of my classmates was going crazy for the modifications and I think she failed. For what? A slightly large prep? She got some bad advice and had modification in her brain. I had a big prep and I knew it, but I wasn't going to waste time having my patient stand in line. You don't need 100 to pass the operative portion.
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Ditto.
I took my NERB last weekend, with only 1 week to screen patients. I ended up with perio 100, restorative 95. The test doesn't really test your clinical skills, because I have seen people who are as good as me, or better fail the test.
As far as modifications, I went into the exam knowing I might need one, but I just skipped it and focused on doing the preps and caring less about losing points. My class 2 prep was approved, but the examiners asked me to place a liner (I didn't request a liner). A classmate across the hallway requested 3 modifications on his class 2, and he ended up failing because the lesion got too big and caries was left behind.
If you have no problems on the exam (i.e. patient shows up, lesion is fairly ideal, no pulp exposure, no caries left behind, do the paperwork right, don't argue with examiners, etc), you will easily do very well.
Good luck
what kind of ideal lesions should we look for? having a small lesion usually makes it easier to prep, but they could reject your patient if they think the lesion is too small. Also, try not to request modifications if possible, right?
Why is there such a big discrepancy in passing rates among dental schools? NYU and Upenn must have done something right in preparing their students for the exam. btw, We didn't do well last year either.
Why is there such a big discrepancy in passing rates among dental schools? NYU and Upenn must have done something right in preparing their students for the exam. btw, We didn't do well last year either.
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from what i heard about the tufts dilemma was that they weren't "accepted" on the day of the examination. i guessthis year there wasn't rigorous screening done to ensure that the patient's lesion qualified for certain procedures. It wasn't because the students couldn't do a class II prep and filling......they werent even able to START their procedure because it didnt fit the guidelines and therefore failed that section. i assisted the WREB today at tufts and saw many happy students. all the 4th years seemed reasonably confident in their abilities and ppl were smiling standing in line. the same cannot be said for the NERB, i saw everyone stressing. in my opinion, the WREB is a way more chill clinical examination than the NERB is......take it or assist for it and you will know what i'm talking about.
i couldn't agree more with the suggestion to forgo modification requests unless REALLY necessary. it's not worth the time to save a couple points here and there. getting docked a few points for not asking for small modifications and taking your prep to a point a bit (or even a little more) from ideal is worth it when you consider the time factor involved with modification requests. getting the caries out without any critical errors is the key to passing.
obviously with all this being said it's best to start looking early and often for the ideal lesion. but sometimes life isn't that easy 🙂
there are a ton of flaws with the current NERB system. unfortunately, i feel like right now it's 75% luck and 25% clinical skill. with that being said, very strong people with great clinical skills will have a bad day or just make mistakes under the mental and time pressure (make critical errors) and people who seriously suck at dentistry will manage to make super ugly preps without critical failures and pass. sad but true.
not everyone will be in agreement with that i'm gonna say, but take it for what it's worth because i believe it's the best advice 🙂
class3 is easy -- just make sure it's clinically visible to the DEJ. there should be no problem with that. don't worry too much about the radiograph...if you can see it there, great, if not the clinical presentation doesn't lie, so don't get all hot and bothered bc you can't produce a radiograph that shows the lesion 😛 remember that class3 lesions are approved based on clinical presentation and the radiograph is just there as backup and to show the surrounding tissues.
for a class2 lesion MAKE SURE that you can see the caries into the DEJ on the radiograph. don't be so damn stingy that you're trying to look for something that barely exists. it's not worth the risk of the lesion being so small it's denied the day of the exam. DON'T RELY SOLELY ON INSTRUCTORS/FACULTY to "approve" lesions. some instructors (even the ones that go around testing for the NERB or other licensure exams) sadly are horrible clinicians in my honest opinion. as much as that sounds harsh, it's the truth. i saw classmates have their lesions denied on the day of the exam when the lesions were approved by faculty who are NERB examiners that go testing at other dental schools. YOU know what a lesion looks like; trust your clinical judgment. if you're not sure whether a lesion is actually there, find another one even if the famous best instructor in the world that goes around lecturing about caries tells you it's wonderful for the boards. seriously.
as for the passing rates at NYU and Penn -- are these statistics published somewhere? for some reason i have a hard time believing 98% passing rates no matter the school 😀
hope this helps!
oh, just to give a little more information about points deductions. it seems that stuff like a prep that is slightly to moderately bigger than the "ideal" without asking for modifications is only a few points deduction (think < 10 points), which is the reason for the suggestion to forget about modification requests unless absolutely necessary. of course this is an educated estimation and i don't really know how many points are taken off, so take this with a grain of salt. you only need a 75 to pass operative (and perio for that matter). of course don't go blowing off entire cusps or turning MO into MOD without mod requests for the sake of saving time...use your clinical judgment, haha. from what i gather it seems that most/almostall who pass operative get scores between 90-100.
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When screening patients you just have to know who to go to, because there are several instructors who are/were examiners for the NERB examination. I made sure that these instructors saw my patients prior to the examination and did fine. We had plenty of class meetings and workshops to help us with the procedures. It wasn't as if we were on our own the entire time.
This is more of a time management issue on the part of the student taking the examination. I was BARELY able to make it on time to start my second operative patient. Time really flies when you're taking the exam under pressure. Some people just handle this better than others.
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According to the NERB manual, "Interproximal caries must be shown radiographically to at least penetrate to the dento-enamel junction." If the lesion is too small, the argument is that you should try to remineralize the tooth rather than do a more invasive procedure. Not everyone is lucky enough to find a patient with the perfect lesion that's not too big and not too small. You just have to work with what you've got.
to standarize yourselves, go the following websites and view the powerpoint presentations:
http://www.nerb.org/b/examiner_training_nerb_b.html
you will see that you be pretty far from from the ideal and still be satisfactory. so i agree with the above poster that said dont request a modification unless you absolutely need to. find out what is minimially acceptable, and if your going to go to less than minimially acceptable request a mod. i took the florida exam (it's administered by NERB and exactly the same but more stressful 🙂) and our professors told us not to request a mod unless 100% necessary. request a mod and getting it back takes a LONG time (its awesome on the WREBS how they approve/disapprove it chairside; thats how its supposed to be). good luck to all taking these exams
omar
http://www.nerb.org/b/examiner_training_nerb_b.html
you will see that you be pretty far from from the ideal and still be satisfactory. so i agree with the above poster that said dont request a modification unless you absolutely need to. find out what is minimially acceptable, and if your going to go to less than minimially acceptable request a mod. i took the florida exam (it's administered by NERB and exactly the same but more stressful 🙂) and our professors told us not to request a mod unless 100% necessary. request a mod and getting it back takes a LONG time (its awesome on the WREBS how they approve/disapprove it chairside; thats how its supposed to be). good luck to all taking these exams
omar
hi,
as mentioned previously in the thread, i had a pinpoint carious exposure in my class II on march 17th at UPENN.
i had asked for a single mod. request for deepening the axial wall only & it was approved in less than 10 min. of waiting time.
i managed the exposure well (according to NERB manual)
the only mistake i believe i did was: while asking for modification request, i should have written ' Anticipated Pulp exposure',
i didn't write this but apparently i had no problems,
b/w there is nothing against any PENN faculty, it was a lesion into dentin & they warned me that it might be moderately deep.
but i used it since my primary patient had a 'super ideal' lesion which might have been rejected, so i made my back up patient my primary patient
also, the request for modification goes to express chair & the average time it takes for the patient to come back is 7-10 min (NOT MORE)
unless you screw up the paperwork
there is a penalty of 4 points for every mod. request being rejected.
i passed with 100 in perio & 98 in restorative plus i completed everything at 4:30 pm (30 min. before closing time)
(my class III pt. was a doll!!!😍)
i will be happy to answer NERB related questions.
best luck,
as mentioned previously in the thread, i had a pinpoint carious exposure in my class II on march 17th at UPENN.
i had asked for a single mod. request for deepening the axial wall only & it was approved in less than 10 min. of waiting time.
i managed the exposure well (according to NERB manual)
the only mistake i believe i did was: while asking for modification request, i should have written ' Anticipated Pulp exposure',
i didn't write this but apparently i had no problems,
b/w there is nothing against any PENN faculty, it was a lesion into dentin & they warned me that it might be moderately deep.
but i used it since my primary patient had a 'super ideal' lesion which might have been rejected, so i made my back up patient my primary patient
also, the request for modification goes to express chair & the average time it takes for the patient to come back is 7-10 min (NOT MORE)
unless you screw up the paperwork
there is a penalty of 4 points for every mod. request being rejected.
i passed with 100 in perio & 98 in restorative plus i completed everything at 4:30 pm (30 min. before closing time)
(my class III pt. was a doll!!!😍)
i will be happy to answer NERB related questions.
best luck,
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i'll take that bet.
you people are just jealous because nyu has better clinical training that whatever schools you went to 😀
I have been a NERB examiner for many years. NERB does not tell any one including examiners the test passing rate for schools. I suppose the schools do not want it posted. Suppose you pay top dollar to go to Penn and they have a failure rate worse than Temple or some other school? Any way, it is all about reading the manual and being prepared and selecting good candidates. You can still pass if you have a pulp exposure if it is recognized and does not effect the completion of the preparation. It is rare but read the manual. If you need any help, you can call me. 410-914-5356. I can help you select and be prepared.
