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Hi all,
So I get the feeling not many people end up on this path, so I wanted to reach out for some input. Surgery isn't for me and I want to do neurology, but I'm not sure if the surgery intern year will satisfy the requirements for neurology. From what I've seen on the ACGME website, 8 months of IM rotations are required, but I did several non-surgery heavy rotations as part of my intern year (ICUs) and I'm curious if anyone has any experience or input on if those would count. Additionally, I was just curious to see if anyone knew of any anecdotal stories about successfully transitioning to a neuro PGY2 utilizing the surgery intern year to fulfill a portion of the prerequisites.
Thank you for any and all input!
 

Thama

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Nope. You need a prelim IM year.
 
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WiredEntropy

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Hi all,
So I get the feeling not many people end up on this path, so I wanted to reach out for some input. Surgery isn't for me and I want to do neurology, but I'm not sure if the surgery intern year will satisfy the requirements for neurology. From what I've seen on the ACGME website, 8 months of IM rotations are required, but I did several non-surgery heavy rotations as part of my intern year (ICUs) and I'm curious if anyone has any experience or input on if those would count. Additionally, I was just curious to see if anyone knew of any anecdotal stories about successfully transitioning to a neuro PGY2 utilizing the surgery intern year to fulfill a portion of the prerequisites.
Thank you for any and all input!

You should discuss with the neuro PD at your institution and see how to make this work; many of the rotations will be compatible and you may be able to spend the first several months of PGY2 doing the necessary rotations. It is doable.
 

Thama

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You should discuss with the neuro PD at your institution and see how to make this work; many of the rotations will be compatible and you may be able to spend the first several months of PGY2 doing the necessary rotations. It is doable.
I don't know what prelim surgery programs you've been around, but those I've been around are 11 months of floor scut work for surgeons and 3 weeks of vacation. None of these could plausibly qualify as an IM rotation. There's a reason prelim surgery and transitional years are not considered options at all for neuro residencies despite being easier to match to.

And making up 8 months of medicine rotations on the fly? I don't know where you would find time to make up 1 as a PGY2 unless there are a bunch of inexplicably cushy programs floating around that I don't know about. You wouldn't realistically have a chance to make up more than a month or two until PGY4 at most places. Plus you'll be expected to already be reasonably competent at general internal medicine as a neurology resident, as by the time you are a PGY2, as your former co-residents will be leading their own floor teams as seniors and you got the same training they did. You manage your own routine medical problems on the neurology floor all the time, rather than calling consults for every stupid thing like a surgical service would.
 
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Aug 3, 2019
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Actually I have had several months of ICU rotations where I actively managed my own patients (including placing lines and chest tubes) and I would probably add the situation is different depending on where you trained. Where I'm at, outside of orthopedic surgery, the surgery services take care of everything including basic medical problems and almost never consult general medicine. Basically, I'm not worried at all about managing medical issues from a competency standpoint, I'm confident in that arena, I'm really more concerned from a logistical / scheduling point of view.

Thank you all for the additional advice, really I just need to get the info from the source is what it's sounding like.

Thanks!
 

ThoracicGuy

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I don't know what prelim surgery programs you've been around, but those I've been around are 11 months of floor scut work for surgeons and 3 weeks of vacation. None of these could plausibly qualify as an IM rotation. There's a reason prelim surgery and transitional years are not considered options at all for neuro residencies despite being easier to match to.

And making up 8 months of medicine rotations on the fly? I don't know where you would find time to make up 1 as a PGY2 unless there are a bunch of inexplicably cushy programs floating around that I don't know about. You wouldn't realistically have a chance to make up more than a month or two until PGY4 at most places. Plus you'll be expected to already be reasonably competent at general internal medicine as a neurology resident, as by the time you are a PGY2, as your former co-residents will be leading their own floor teams as seniors and you got the same training they did. You manage your own routine medical problems on the neurology floor all the time, rather than calling consults for every stupid thing like a surgical service would.

You do realize that most surgery residencies actively discourage routine consults to medicine services for usual issues. It's seen as a sign of weakness. Consults are reserved for the big issues that are certainly outside usual management.
 

liquidshadow22

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You do realize that most surgery residencies actively discourage routine consults to medicine services for usual issues. It's seen as a sign of weakness. Consults are reserved for the big issues that are certainly outside usual management.

That's fine but vastly different conditions are being managed in a prelim medicine versus prelim surgery year. I doubt any neuro PD will or is even allowed by ABPN criteria to see these rotations as equivalent.
 

Thama

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You do realize that most surgery residencies actively discourage routine consults to medicine services for usual issues. It's seen as a sign of weakness. Consults are reserved for the big issues that are certainly outside usual management.
The neurosurgeons, orthopods, urologists, etc (but not general surgery or gen surg subspecialties) at my very large academic institution tend to find anything beyond a simple UTI or mild hypertension a "big issue outside of normal management". Or rather, the midlevels that run their floors and call all their consults think this. Even mild hypertension is plenty of reason for them to claim they are too medically complicated for their service and should be on a medicine service.

On neurology we only call medicine for transfer. If an issue is complicated enough for a consult, its something for a cardiologist/nephrologist/etc.
 
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DrSatan

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Just email program coordinators or directors and ask. Everyone here is just speaking outta their ass
 
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ThoracicGuy

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That's fine but vastly different conditions are being managed in a prelim medicine versus prelim surgery year. I doubt any neuro PD will or is even allowed by ABPN criteria to see these rotations as equivalent.

I entirely agree. I was more pointing out about ridiculous consults from surgery. General surgery tends to not do this. A prelim surgery rotation would not be at all equivalent to a medicine intern year, even with ICU rotations.
 

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