Neuroscience + Career Questions? Some advice please!

[Souzou]

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I'm currently a neuroscience (more like neurobiology) major at my undergraduate institution. I'm back and forth between doing psychology or medicine, and I have been speaking with professionals of different areas to try and figure out what I really want to do. I'm really interested in neuroscience and I love my major, but are there any career opportunities besides research and getting a PhD.? I really want to work with people, so are there clinical psychologists that specialize in neuropsych?

Any input is appreciated because I'm new to the psychology career path!

 

[berlin81]

Yes. Neuropsychology is generally considered a more marketable field within clinical psychology. Although job prospects for psychologists are at low levels in most parts of the country, a neuropsychologist typically has better chances of obtaining solid employment and making a decent living.

Moreover, neuropsychologists are good at producing comprehensive psych evaluations and are useful in legal proceedings that involve guardianship, forensic cases, etc. For some, the only drawback is being limited in doing therapy, but that highly depends on the clinician's job duties as some have private practices.

 

[berlin81]

Sorry, forgot to mention one more thing. There are a ton of programs that have concentrations in neuropsychology. Many do require that you take additional coursework that is aside from the general curriculum, but at the same you can be exposed to internships that conduct neuropsych testing and complete a dissertation that in focused on neuropsych oriented issues.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Sorry, forgot to mention one more thing. There are a ton of programs that have concentrations in neuropsychology. Many do require that you take additional coursework that is aside from the general curriculum, but at the same you can be exposed to internships that conduct neuropsych testing and complete a dissertation that in focused on neuropsych oriented issues.

Though, you do not need to attend a program with a "concentration". It is more important to find a faculty member who can mentor you, because so much of the "important stuff" isn't learned in class.

 

[Psychology 76]

I'm currently a neuroscience (more like neurobiology) major at my undergraduate institution. I'm back and forth between doing psychology or medicine, and I have been speaking with professionals of different areas to try and figure out what I really want to do. I'm really interested in neuroscience and I love my major, but are there any career opportunities besides research and getting a PhD.? I really want to work with people, so are there clinical psychologists that specialize in neuropsych?

Any input is appreciated because I'm new to the psychology career path!

Like others said neuropsychology could be a good way to go. I'd try to shadow a neuropsychologist for a bit to see if you like it first. It's a lot of assessment.
Also, you could find a clinical psych program who has a mentor doing neuroscience research (neuroimaging is common).

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

It is far from a panacea though. Neuropsych is incredibly competitive and the speciality has many of the same problems that plague psychology as a field. For reference, 73 people matched to APPCN fellowship spots this past year. Across the entire country.

 

[Souzou]

Wow this is all very interesting, thank you for the replies. I was looking into neuropsychology actually last night for a bit. Just to clarify, do you specifically apply to programs that have concentrations in neuropsych or gain a PhD. or PsyD. and then focus on neuroscience research? (or either?)

 

[JuniperTree]

Therapist2Change - out of how many applicants?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Wow this is all very interesting, thank you for the replies. I was looking into neuropsychology actually last night for a bit. Just to clarify, do you specifically apply to programs that have concentrations in neuropsych or gain a PhD. or PsyD. and then focus on neuroscience research? (or either?)

The vast majority of programs are generalist programs that offer neuroscience mentorship/training. Some programs have specific "tracks" or "concentrations"....which are sometimes the result of having multiple mentors who do neuro work, other times it is more marketing than substance.

Therapist2Change - out of how many applicants?

175 registered
127 submitted a rank order
73 matched

57% match rate of those who submitted a rank, but only 42% of all applicants who applied for the match.

 

[MrQuack]

The vast majority of programs are generalist programs that offer neuroscience mentorship/training. Some programs have specific "tracks" or "concentrations"....which are sometimes the result of having multiple mentors who do neuro work, other times it is more marketing than substance.



175 registered
127 submitted a rank order
73 matched

57% match rate of those who submitted a rank, but only 42% of all applicants who applied for the match.

Seems like great odds to me if your in a good program. Course anything does once you make it past applications.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Seems like great odds to me if your in a good program. Course anything does once you make it past applications.

That assumes an equal distribution of of competitiveness. Based on the applicants I met at NAN when I was interviewing....weak applicants were few and far between.

 

[sukurux]

There are certain PhD and PsyD programs with neuropsychology available as a minor. Currently, I am doing neuroscience research and minoring in neuropsychology. Feel free to message me if you have any more question.

 

[hopefuldoc97239]

I'm really interested in neuroscience and I love my major, but are there any career opportunities besides research and getting a PhD.?

As someone who has a PhD in neuroscience, and who has lots of friends/former classmates with the same degree, let me tell you that I'm not even sure that there are many career opportunities right now including research for people with a PhD in neuroscience.

For example, when I joined my lab as a first year grad student there was a third year post doc in the lab. Seven years later, he's still a post doc. This guy has 30+ publications during that time, plus all of the appropriate post-doc-level grants you would want, and he still can't find a job as an independent researcher.

 

[2012PhD]

As someone who has a PhD in neuroscience, and who has lots of friends/former classmates with the same degree, let me tell you that I'm not even sure that there are many career opportunities right now including research for people with a PhD in neuroscience.

For example, when I joined my lab as a first year grad student there was a third year post doc in the lab. Seven years later, he's still a post doc. This guy has 30+ publications during that time, plus all of the appropriate post-doc-level grants you would want, and he still can't find a job as an independent researcher.

I have def. heard horror stories like this before as well. The academic/research job market has become even more competitive. Funding has been cut everywhere. It is also pretty tough these days to get tenure even if you land one of these prestigious academic research jobs (10 years is not uncommon).

Psychology is just rough these days overall. The clinical field is also out of whack in terms of supply-demand imbalance.

It looks like you are going into medical school from your profile? I have been seeing many psychology graduate students lately expressing interest in switching to medicine. Unfortunately, many people seem to do this only once they committed to this field for 7-8 years. I think this forum is an excellent way for people to find out what clinical psychology/neuropsychology (and related fields) is all about and how much of a risk it is before committing 5-7 years of their time.

 

[2012PhD]

I'm currently a neuroscience (more like neurobiology) major at my undergraduate institution. I'm back and forth between doing psychology or medicine, and I have been speaking with professionals of different areas to try and figure out what I really want to do. I'm really interested in neuroscience and I love my major, but are there any career opportunities besides research and getting a PhD.? I really want to work with people, so are there clinical psychologists that specialize in neuropsych?

Any input is appreciated because I'm new to the psychology career path!

The training for neuropsychology/clinical psychology vs. MD is going to be 8 years post-BA. From a purely economic standpoint, MD's earn a higher salary and have better job security/demand is higher. Neuropsychologists are clinical psychologists that get specialized fellowship training after graduate school (2 year fellowship program after the PhD) so you can go to a PhD in clinical psychology if you are interested in "working with people" as you mentioned.

MD's can also have research careers and tend to be department chairs/heads of division more readily than psychologists overall.

 

[deleted106747]

I have def. heard horror stories like this before as well. The academic/research job market has become even more competitive. Funding has been cut everywhere. It is also pretty tough these days to get tenure even if you land one of these prestigious academic research jobs (10 years is not uncommon).

Psychology is just rough these days overall. The clinical field is also out of whack in terms of supply-demand imbalance.

It looks like you are going into medical school from your profile? I have been seeing many psychology graduate students lately expressing interest in switching to medicine. Unfortunately, many people seem to do this only once they committed to this field for 7-8 years. I think this forum is an excellent way for people to find out what clinical psychology/neuropsychology (and related fields) is all about and how much of a risk it is before committing 5-7 years of their time.

I agree, but I think this board does tend to skew negative, across the board (pun intended) in every discipline. I've seen turf wars in the hospital, but never like what happens here in terms of outright nastiness between psychiatrists, psychologists & psych NPs and PhD psychologists and PsyD psychologists. So I agree it's a good source of info, but it's also important to seek out other perspectives. I want to say again that every one in my intern class has a job or a fellowship, and I feel optimistic about my future in this field. The one thing I will always reiterate though is that I think in this field, and in a specialty like neuropsych, geographic flexibility is almost a must now. That can be tough if you want to settle into a relationship, family, etc. I'm not sure MDs have to face that as much (not meaning to start a "who suffers more" war here, if I'm wrong I'm happy to admit it). I'll also state that I'm starting to think psychology training could use an increased understanding of physical health correlates to mental health. I have toyed with the NP idea for a long time, and I'm toying with it more seriously now NOT because I'm after script rights only but I'm after more knowledge of physical health in order to better work with mental health. Of course, I'm in health psych so perhaps my values are a bit skewed...I wouldn't have gone for the MD though because I just don't fit the model of training as a clinician.

 

[shauna]

As a psychology major, I am similar to the OP as I am at a crossroad to pursuing a PsyD/PhD or MD. Being an undergrad I am preparing for both tracks because I haven't committed to either yet, but I would just like to mention that med school is a very different lifestyle that should be well considered before embarking upon. The training is much more rigorous, much more demanding in terms of time (less personal life & self-care), very physically demanding due to call rotation, exposure to hazardous substances/microbes, long hours in the OR, emotional stress, and less interpersonal connection with patients than in psychology. That said, there are a lot of great things about being an MD that I won't mention here but just emphasizing that it is a very different lifestyle.

 

[deleted106747]

As a psychology major, I am similar to the OP as I am at a crossroad to pursuing a PsyD/PhD or MD. Being an undergrad I am preparing for both tracks because I haven't committed to either yet, but I would just like to mention that med school is a very different lifestyle that should be well considered before embarking upon. The training is much more rigorous, much more demanding in terms of time (less personal life & self-care), very physically demanding due to call rotation, exposure to hazardous substances/microbes, long hours in the OR, emotional stress, and less interpersonal connection with patients than in psychology. That said, there are a lot of great things about being an MD that I won't mention here but just emphasizing that it is a very different lifestyle.

hahaha and the war starts up again...
each one of your points is qualitatively different between med school and psychology grad school and differs by program. I've seen med students who have more frequent interpersonal connection with patients than psych students. Psych students' training is rigorous in a qualitatively different way than med students; quantitative comparison is simply foolish.
As an undergrad, you aren't expected to know these things. but you should be careful about putting these concepts out as facts.

 

[2012PhD]

As a psychology major, I am similar to the OP as I am at a crossroad to pursuing a PsyD/PhD or MD. Being an undergrad I am preparing for both tracks because I haven't committed to either yet, but I would just like to mention that med school is a very different lifestyle that should be well considered before embarking upon. The training is much more rigorous, much more demanding in terms of time (less personal life & self-care), very physically demanding due to call rotation, exposure to hazardous substances/microbes, long hours in the OR, emotional stress, and less interpersonal connection with patients than in psychology. That said, there are a lot of great things about being an MD that I won't mention here but just emphasizing that it is a very different lifestyle.

Another post discounting how difficult and rigorous psychology is.....no surprise here.

Your account of PhD in clinical psychology vs. MD is inaccurate. I am completing my clinical psychology doctorate right now and I can vouch that we often face a similar level of rigor, intensity, risk and emotional stress. MDs often believe that they are the only ones that work hard. This is a common misconception. My collegues and I routinely put in 60 plus hour weeks throughout graduate school. As a clinical psychology graduate student you are going to be balancing a full course load, research, dissertation, hospital placement, and sometimes even a TA position all in the same semester. Many of us have had suicidal and homicidal clients that we routinely have to manage and deal with high risk clients. I am always on call since i have to respond to outside emergencies myself whenever a client calls our clinic's emergency line. Some psychology students who specialize in DBT are available 24/7. Psychologists who work in oncology units often have to deal with frequent patient deaths. Providing psychotherapy to often unstable or suicidal clients is one of the most stressful careers out there. Since you are an undergraduate, you should try volunteering/working in an inpatient hospital to see what its like.

 

[shauna]

Another post discounting how difficult and rigorous psychology is.....no surprise here.

Your account of PhD in clinical psychology vs. MD is inaccurate. I am completing my clinical psychology doctorate right now and I can vouch that we often face a similar level of rigor, intensity, risk and emotional stress. MDs often believe that they are the only ones that work hard. This is a common misconception. My collegues and I routinely put in 60 plus hour weeks throughout graduate school. As a clinical psychology graduate student you are going to be balancing a full course load, research, dissertation, hospital placement, and sometimes even a TA position all in the same semester. Many of us have had suicidal and homicidal clients that we routinely have to manage and deal with high risk clients. I am always on call since i have to respond to outside emergencies myself whenever a client calls our clinic's emergency line. Some psychology students who specialize in DBT are available 24/7. Psychologists who work in oncology units often have to deal with frequent patient deaths. Providing psychotherapy to often unstable or suicidal clients is one of the most stressful careers out there. Since you are an undergraduate, you should try volunteering/working in an inpatient hospital to see what its like.

This is all good to know. I am not really interested in pursuing the clinical pathology track such as DBT as a means to an end. I am more interested in neuropsychology, research, assessments and and/or specializing in social and positive psychology within private practice. However, I realize clinical training is a precursor to neuropsychology.

 

[shauna]

Psych students' training is rigorous in a qualitatively different way than med students; quantitative comparison is simply foolish. As an undergrad, you aren't expected to know these things. but you should be careful about putting these concepts out as facts.

To me, qualitative rigor is more attractive than quantitative, with the former allowing more time to think abstractedly rather than the high emphasis on timely rote memorization in the latter. MD and psychol training require different cognitive skill sets.

 

[twilson]

To me, qualitative rigor is more attractive than quantitative, with the former allowing more time to think abstractedly rather than the high emphasis on timely rote memorization in the latter. MD and psychol training require different cognitive skill sets.

If you think there's no timely rote memorization needed in psych grad school, you need to talk to some grad students. It's not all philosophy and theory as you may think.

 

[2012PhD]

To me, qualitative rigor is more attractive than quantitative, with the former allowing more time to think abstractedly rather than the high emphasis on timely rote memorization in the latter. MD and psychol training require different cognitive skill sets.

Yes, there is less rote memorization and more abstract thinking in a PhD program compared to the MD. However, I can assure you that clinical psychology students are a sleep deprived bunch. Being in a clinical program often feels like juggling 4 jobs at once. When in comes to comprehensive exams and deadlines, people definitely pull all nighters and don't get much sleep either. The pace is pretty hectic.

 

[shauna]

Yes, there is less rote memorization and more abstract thinking in a PhD program compared to the MD. However, I can assure you that clinical psychology students are a sleep deprived bunch. Being in a clinical program often feels like juggling 4 jobs at once. When in comes to comprehensive exams and deadlines, people definitely pull all nighters and don't get much sleep either. The pace is pretty hectic.

Doesn't it depend on the type of psychol program taken? From what I've researched psychol programs vary depending on the school, focus and instructors. Is there a faster or slower track - can the student have more control than in med school? A student can choose to not sleep depending on his personal circumstances and responsibilities, but no-one is forcing him into a rotating sleep schedule. I still think psychol offers a better quality of life.

 

[2012PhD]

Doesn't it depend on the type of psychol program taken? From what I've researched psychol programs vary depending on the school, focus and instructors. Is there a faster or slower track - can the student have more control than in med school? A student can choose to not sleep depending on his personal circumstances and responsibilities, but no-one is forcing him into a rotating sleep schedule. I still think psychol offers a better quality of life.

Most of the good programs are full-time programs and many push for their students to graduate within a certain time frame. In some programs you can go "slower" or part-time (counseling programs and PsyD's are more open to this), but this means that you will accrue more debt and may finish the program in 8 years plus. That is many years where you are out of the work force. It may also be frowned upon by internship sites and employers. the competition in our field is fierce for internship and fellowship training.

You are thinking in absolutes. MD training is really variable as well. I know people who were able to go "slower" as you say or went to less rigorous programs. I've met people with kids in MD programs. Some MD programs even grade on a Pass/Fail basis and have no grades per se. One of my friends in psychiatry residency was able to cut residency down to three days a week because she was depressed, and she still finished on time. Plus, psychiatrists earn more than double the income of psychologists on average so after you get your degree you can always work part-time as a psychiatrist and still make more or the same amount of money than a psychologist.

 

[deleted106747]

To me, qualitative rigor is more attractive than quantitative, with the former allowing more time to think abstractedly rather than the high emphasis on timely rote memorization in the latter. MD and psychol training require different cognitive skill sets.

Well, I meant that they are qualitatively different, not so much that one is more qualitative and the other more quantitative. I think that the cognitive skill sets overlap in some places and are divergent in others.

 

[deleted106747]

Most of the good programs are full-time programs and many push for their students to graduate within a certain time frame. In some programs you can go "slower" or part-time (counseling programs and PsyD's are more open to this), but this means that you will accrue more debt and may finish the program in 8 years plus.

Did you mean counseling psychology programs? They are not more open to that than clinical as a rule; again, this varies by program, not by program type.

 

[shauna]

Most of the good programs are full-time programs and many push for their students to graduate within a certain time frame. In some programs you can go "slower" or part-time (counseling programs and PsyD's are more open to this)

PsyD seems like a good fit for me. Can be done w/ or w/o dissertation (not that I don't want the challenge, but may allow me to graduate faster), and focuses on clinical treatment and assessments/testing. Psychiatrists get paid more but that must be weighed against the outlook of the field. Psychiatry misses the vast amounts of psychol theory and is very physiologically focused. I just think it's a completely different animal. Unless someone is pharmaceutically focused, why go through all the diversity of med school just to treat the mind?

 

[2012PhD]

PsyD seems like a good fit for me. Can be done w/ or w/o dissertation (not that I don't want the challenge, but may allow me to graduate faster), and focuses on clinical treatment and assessments/testing. Psychiatrists get paid more but that must be weighed against the outlook of the field. Psychiatry misses the vast amounts of psychol theory and is very physiologically focused. I just think it's a completely different animal. Unless someone is pharmaceutically focused, why go through all the diversity of med school just to treat the mind?

PsyD may be a better fit. Any good PsyD program will require a dissertation and takes about 5 years of full-time school. Part-time is longer. Be wary of any program that doesn't require a dissertation.

 

[2012PhD]

Did you mean counseling psychology programs? They are not more open to that than clinical as a rule; again, this varies by program, not by program type.

I think you are right. I'm referring to PsyD programs in clinical and counseling. They have more part-time options from what i've seen.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

PsyD seems like a good fit for me. Can be done w/ or w/o dissertation (not that I don't want the challenge, but may allow me to graduate faster), and focuses on clinical treatment and assessments/testing.

If you do not have an interest in having research be an active component of your learning, do not pursue doctoral training. It is not an optional skill. Your focus shouldn't be on speed, it should be on competence. With the increased competition of the internship process, you will need to be a strong applicant, so any "cutting corners" will not help you in this regard.

 

[cara susanna]

Also, I've found that competence in research really helps competence in assessment. Assessment deals with research principles like validity, reliability, factor analysis, confidence intervals, and so on. IMO, you can't fully understand assessment if you don't have a research background.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Also, I've found that competence in research really helps competence in assessment. Assessment deals with research principles like validity, reliability, factor analysis, confidence intervals, and so on. IMO, you can't fully understand assessment if you don't have a research background.

Absolutely. It is amazing how many questions on the EPPP are tagged as "assessment", and they really are stats questions.