Neurosurgery lifestyles, when do they ever have some fun?

[Drpowerlifter]

I've been curious about some of the specialties where the hours are insane. A few specialties come to mind but neurosurgery probably tops the battle for the most hours.
When do these guys (yes guys as the strong majority are males) ever get a chance to enjoy life outside of the medical scene?
I mean is there ever time to get a gf? If there is, I doubt they'd keep em long. Or friendships? Hobbies? It's even more amazing when some of them work even harder than your average neurosurgeon at such fast paces (they're your purely money motivated ones) but when do they ever get a chance to enjoy the money?

I mean there's lots of great things about this specialty, but if you're making 400k+ a year and the only fun time you have is banging a hooker on the weekend as that's your limited free time, then do you really get to enjoy life in the end?

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[link2swim06]

When looking their bank account statement.

 

[Drpowerlifter]

When looking their bank account statement.

There's more efficient ways of making >400k/year in medicine.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

There's more efficient ways of making >400k/year in medicine.

Bro think a couple hundred grand more and you're in the right range. That's usually just base...unlike other specialties it's really not too crazy for some to make a mil depending on where they're practicing.

 

[link2swim06]

There's more efficient ways of making >400k/year in medicine.

I think a lot of them make closer to 700-800K...which is more than double most physicians.

But I think neurosurgery attracts people of a certain personality for non-monetary reasons.

 

[Stellar Clouds]

We had a discussion about this in the anesthesia forum. Here is one of the quotes from that thread:

Residency is brutal for surgical fields across the board, especially for junior surgical residents. No question about that.

Life AFTER residency, however, is a different story. In general, surgical subspecialists can have a reasonable lifestyle after residency. Some examples...

Neurosurgery: I know this sounds crazy, but neurosurgeons can have a pretty good lifestyle after residency if they choose wisely. Neurosurgeons that avoid level 1 trauma centers and focus on spine can have a practice that almost exclusively consists of elective cases. Spine emergencies are relatively rare (spinal cord compression, etc.) so ER call for spine surgeons isn't bad at all. Cranial call, on the other hand, can be an absolute nightmare with subarachnoid bleeds, subdurals, tumors...I know many neurosurgeons in private practice around the country (Washington State, NYC, Los Angeles, Georgia, Michigan) that work roughly 40-55 hours per week with easy call (i.e., being called in from home maybe once per year). Their income ranges from $500,000 to $1,200,000 annually. All of these people have practices that are exclusively (or heavily) spine. One guy in particular just joined Kaiser in California, where he is employed as a spine surgeon. He makes $500,000 annually for 40 hours of work per wek. That's roughly TWICE what an anesthesiologist at Kaiser makes when he/she starts working there, despite the fact that both will work the same number of hours weekly. Neurosurgery has a reputation for being absolutely horrible when it comes to lifestyle, but the reality is that MANY neurosurgeons in private practice have very reasonable schedules. Residency, on the other hand...

 

[Drpowerlifter]

We had a discussion about this in the anesthesia forum. Here is one of the quotes from that thread:

But what percentage of neurosurgeons actually get into the spine-only practice?

 

[Drpowerlifter]

Bro think a couple hundred grand more and you're in the right range. That's usually just base...unlike other specialties it's really not too crazy for some to make a mil depending on where they're practicing.

I'm in Canada so yea bit different, though even here 500k/year is probably more realistic. But then again we have some family doctors making 300-400+ working 9-5....

Nonetheless my question remains unanswered, the majority of those in surgical specialties make big money AND work long hours. The job satisfaction could very well be there but what about enjoying your life? More importantly the prime years.

 

[Akali]

Bro, you don't sound like someone who's ever gonna be a neurosurgeon so I wouldn't worry about it.

Like the post above indicates, it's not as bad in reality as you perceive it to be.

 

[link2swim06]

Most neurosurgeons I know have been divorced multiple times.

Job satisfaction may be ok but I think any surgery hurts your social/family life.

 

[Drpowerlifter]

Bro, you don't sound like someone who's ever gonna be a neurosurgeon so I wouldn't worry about it.

Like the post above indicates, it's not as bad in reality as you perceive it to be.

It's all curiosity anyways.

Most neurosurgeons I know have been divorced multiple times.

Job satisfaction may be ok but I think any surgery hurts your social/family life.

With that many divorces that 800k/year could easily be shredded down to 200k/year or even less, after alimony/child support payments.
But I wouldn't see a point in getting married cause it's either divorce = lose significant money and/or the mailman/pool guy screws your wife all day.

 

[mcloaf]

I've been curious about some of the specialties where the hours are insane. A few specialties come to mind but neurosurgery probably tops the battle for the most hours.
When do these guys (yes guys as the strong majority are males) ever get a chance to enjoy life outside of the medical scene?
I mean is there ever time to get a gf? If there is, I doubt they'd keep em long. Or friendships? Hobbies? It's even more amazing when some of them work even harder than your average neurosurgeon at such fast paces (they're your purely money motivated ones) but when do they ever get a chance to enjoy the money?

I mean there's lots of great things about this specialty, but if you're making 400k+ a year and the only fun time you have is banging a hooker on the weekend as that's your limited free time, then do you really get to enjoy life in the end?

Whoa, did I lose my way into hSDN?

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

It's all curiosity anyways.



With that many divorces that 800k/year could easily be shredded down to 200k/year or even less, after alimony/child support payments.
But I wouldn't see a point in getting married cause it's either divorce = lose significant money and/or the mailman/pool guy screws your wife all day.

Holla we want pre-nup

 

[Drpowerlifter]

Holla we want pre-nup

Pre nups get thrown out all the time and won't stop alimony from being paid. It'll save whatever assets you have til that point, which likely isn't very much.

 

[gasblaster]

Currently at a community hospital for intern year and have worked with the neurosurgeons here. They're a small group but make 800k+ each doing mostly spine, some intracranial stuff but it's not a level 1 trauma, and very reasonable hours. They do 2-3 days of outpt, the other days in the OR, and less than 1 weekend of home call a month where the PAs do all the grunt work. I'd say they work the same if not less than some of the other surg subspecialties and def less the GS. Residency is **** but after that it's whatever you want it to be. And they all have family lives that aren't any different than any other surgeon..

 

[gasblaster]

Bro, you don't sound like someone who's ever gonna be a neurosurgeon so I wouldn't worry about it.

Like the post above indicates, it's not as bad in reality as you perceive it to be.

Agreed. You definitely have to be a certain personality and work ethic to go into NS.

 

[Drpowerlifter]

Currently at a community hospital for intern year and have worked with the neurosurgeons here. They're a small group but make 800k+ each doing mostly spine, some intracranial stuff but it's not a level 1 trauma, and very reasonable hours. They do 2-3 days of outpt, the other days in the OR, and less than 1 weekend of home call a month where the PAs do all the grunt work. I'd say they work the same if not less than some of the other surg subspecialties and def less the GS. Residency is **** but after that it's whatever you want it to be. And they all have family lives that aren't any different than any other surgeon..

Yea but again, what percentage of neurosurgeons get to do mostly spine work? Geographically, the market is fairly saturated in all the good locations for many surgeons and specialists. So getting a spine-only type gig is probably not realistic for most.

 

[gasblaster]

Yea but again, what percentage of neurosurgeons get to do mostly spine work? Geographically, the market is fairly saturated in all the good locations for many surgeons and specialists. So getting a spine-only type gig is probably not realistic for most.

It's actually not that hard. First NS, just like other surg specialties, have the option to tailor their practice to how they want in pp. The money is in spine so most pp groups would likely rather have their surgeons doing more spine cases and then refer out the bigger intracranial cases to academic centers. The NS that work at academic centers are likely not there for routine lamies, discs, etc. There's not a scarcity of spine patients (there's a reason LBP is one of the most common ccs) and I definitely don't think there is an oversaturation of neurosurgeons except maybe in the very best locations and even then I doubt it's really a true oversaturation.

 

[Rendar5]

Yea but again, what percentage of neurosurgeons get to do mostly spine work? Geographically, the market is fairly saturated in all the good locations for many surgeons and specialists. So getting a spine-only type gig is probably not realistic for most.

Dude, are you genuinely asking us or are you just telling us what you think and wording it in the form of a question? lol

 

[notbobtrustme]

Being wrist-deep in a dude's brain is fun to them.

 

[Drpowerlifter]

Dude, are you genuinely asking us or are you just telling us what you think and wording it in the form of a question? lol

No I'm actually curious on how the MAJORITY of neurosurgeons' lifestyles are.

 

[link2swim06]

No I'm actually curious on how the MAJORITY of neurosurgeons' lifestyles are.

Lifestyle and Info:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/archive/index.php/t-83852.html
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/archive/index.php/t-166874.html

Avg Pay:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=817247

SDN for neurosurgeons:
http://www.uncleharvey.com/

 

[neusu]

As a resident life is pretty miserable.

From what I can tell, being an attending, it will be nice.

 

[Planes2Doc]

If you're someone like Dr. Keith Black, imagine the kind of difference you can make in the world.

I think someone of that caliber does it for the love of medicine, and that is probably the lifestyle they enjoy. Other people might not enjoy working so much. I know I wouldn't.

 

[cowme]

didn't spine surgeon salaries get crushed recently when they stopped reimbursing surgeries per spinal level? A 10 level fusion now pays 1/10th what it used to

 

[DoctwoB]

I've been curious about some of the specialties where the hours are insane. A few specialties come to mind but neurosurgery probably tops the battle for the most hours.
When do these guys (yes guys as the strong majority are males) ever get a chance to enjoy life outside of the medical scene?
I mean is there ever time to get a gf? If there is, I doubt they'd keep em long. Or friendships? Hobbies? It's even more amazing when some of them work even harder than your average neurosurgeon at such fast paces (they're your purely money motivated ones) but when do they ever get a chance to enjoy the money?

I mean there's lots of great things about this specialty, but if you're making 400k+ a year and the only fun time you have is banging a hooker on the weekend as that's your limited free time, then do you really get to enjoy life in the end?

With regards to residency lifestyle, there's a couple factors to consider (1) Is a residency program 80 hours compliant and (2) how hard are those 80 (or more) hours.

The majority of neurosurgery and gensurg programs are probably non-compliant (though strictly compliant programs certainly exist). There are non-compliant programs in every specialty, but they're much more common in Neuro/ortho/gensurg and to a lesser extent in other surgical subspecialties.

Even if a program is 80 hours compliant, however, there is a big difference between how 80 hours can be spent. 80 hours where you're running around all day and juggling being in the OR with consults and floor work with a rough call schedule and 80 hours where a good portion of your day is spent rounding, in teaching, and writing up detailed notes with a good night float system is a very different thing.

Ultimately you have to do what you love though. I found 14 hour days on surgery to be much less tiring then 8 hour days on outpatient medicine because I was engaged and interested.

Once you're an attending, you can generally find an arrangement to work as much or as little as you want (with corresponding pay differences of course). The real difference is how brutal call is and how many emergencies there are, but even that can be avoided by choosing your location and practice setup wisely.

 

[Winged Scapula]

RE: Work Hours

Many Neurosurgery programs have been granted 10% exception to the "80 hour" work week and residents may work up to 88 hours per week. Whether that is still violated or not is of great debate of course and up to individuals and their programs.

 

[Drpowerlifter]

didn't spine surgeon salaries get crushed recently when they stopped reimbursing surgeries per spinal level? A 10 level fusion now pays 1/10th what it used to

Yea I remember back when they were averaging like a mil a year? Times change, much like opthalmology in Canada where some dudes can even bring in 2+ mil/year.

 

[sector9]

Closing thread as the OP has been banned.